Code development (and my lack thereof)

Discussions about the development and maturation of the platform code (UXP).
Warning: may contain highly-technical topics.

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Moonchild
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Code development (and my lack thereof)

Unread post by Moonchild » 2022-08-13, 10:39

As some of you may have noticed my personal code development contributions lately have been minimal. Without going into too much detail, I can just say that I've had some deeply-impacting personal things (unrelated to the project or anyone in it) happen that require me to find my centre again and that take up most of my headspace at the moment (and for at least a few more weeks to come). I'll still make sure to keep as much server administration flowing as I can and help out with those kinds of things like helping the recent Basilisk and Epyrus releases, and will of course stick with the normal release schedule for Pale Moon doing sec audits and patches when the next Firefox will be released, but otherwise for code development I'm forced to keep it toned down lest I burn myself out completely.
Of course the hot summer weather doesn't help either :problem:

Anyway, I just wanted to let everyone know this to prevent rumors or assumptions. Rest assured my drive for Pale Moon is undiminished! I just need time to sort this (and myself) back out and can't do intensive coding work while I do so. As always anyone is welcome to help out and tackle any of the open issues (or new issues!) that we need assistance with and I'll continue to organise and lead as best I can.
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athenian200
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Re: Code development (and my lack thereof)

Unread post by athenian200 » 2022-08-13, 13:21

Well, I really hope you're doing okay. Whatever is going on, take care of that first, because ultimately at the end of the day... your health (mental and physical) is more important than a computer program, even one you've spent a decade working on.

In my opinion, you've taken far too much of this project onto yourself as it is, and I think we've reached the limits of that approach. It can't just be a few people doing all the work that's needed like it was before, IMO. I think when you get back, instead of focusing on just writing code ourselves, we need to be putting work into recruiting new people into the project.

I hope things get better for you, and that you have plenty of time to recuperate. I appreciate everything you've done for the project and the surrounding community over the years.
"There are two sentences inscribed upon the Ancient oracle... 'Know thyself' and 'Nothing too much'; and upon these all other precepts depend." -- Plutarch

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Re: Code development (and my lack thereof)

Unread post by Sajadi » 2022-08-13, 20:39

Moonchild wrote:
2022-08-13, 10:39
Rest assured my drive for Pale Moon is undiminished!
Just keep things simple and relaxed as much as you can until you feel better again!
athenian200 wrote:
2022-08-13, 13:21
we need to be putting work into recruiting new people into the project.
This cant be avoided and should be top priority to do, even right now - as someone is urgently needed who can handle the more complex ECMAScript/Javascript and CSS issues as this is the ultimate weakness of Pale Moon and to go further forward, someone is necessary as soon and as fast as possible to bring in necessary knowledge regarding this - especially regarding Rust code "porting/translating" so that its possible to make things like Google Webcomponents and/or the V8 regexp parser finally working, features which more and more websites require these days.

Without someone like that, things are getting more and more problematic web compatibility wise. But the ultimate question is... where to find someone like that? :crazy:
Last edited by Sajadi on 2022-08-13, 20:54, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Code development (and my lack thereof)

Unread post by andyprough » 2022-08-13, 20:52

Sajadi wrote:
2022-08-13, 20:39
things are getting more and more problematic web compatibility wise
I've seen nothing but compatibility improvements over the past year. I don't doubt that the project needs certain additional programming skills, but your statement seems anachronistic.
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Re: Code development (and my lack thereof)

Unread post by Sajadi » 2022-08-13, 20:56

andyprough wrote:
2022-08-13, 20:52
Sajadi wrote:
2022-08-13, 20:39
things are getting more and more problematic web compatibility wise
I've seen nothing but compatibility improvements over the past year. I don't doubt that the project needs certain additional programming skills, but your statement seems anachronistic.
Sure there have been, nobody denies that :)

But the biggest sharks in the pond which grow larger and larger and are incomplete in Pale Moon are as described Web-Components and the Regex parser, for which certain pre-requisites are missing to reach this goal (Rust based components) - both are hard to be completed into a working state without someone with the necessary skills regarding later Mozilla code bases, who can transcribe this for Pale Moon to fill out the missing gaps to make the implementations work.

And more and more big mainstream sites require this anti-competitive standard madness enforced by Google and its Mozilla shills. So it is self-explaining that someone with such a skill level is urgently needed, as all future ECMA script implementations or CSS stuff added in Firefox are written in Rust and need an implementation from scratch into Pale Moon as its not possible anymore to simply copy code elements into the Pale Moon code base.

There are already way too much differences which makes it impossible to make it work out that way.

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Re: Code development (and my lack thereof)

Unread post by somdcomputerguy » 2022-08-13, 22:53

Moonchild wrote:
2022-08-13, 10:39
Without going into too much detail, I can just say that I've had some deeply-impacting personal things (unrelated to the project or anyone in it) happen that require me to find my centre again and that take up most of my headspace at the moment (and for at least a few more weeks to come).
Hope everything works out. Do what ya gotta do, bud.
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Re: Code development (and my lack thereof)

Unread post by athenian200 » 2022-08-13, 23:17

Sajadi wrote:
2022-08-13, 20:39
This cant be avoided and should be top priority to do, even right now - as someone is urgently needed who can handle the more complex ECMAScript/Javascript and CSS issues as this is the ultimate weakness of Pale Moon and to go further forward, someone is necessary as soon and as fast as possible to bring in necessary knowledge regarding this - especially regarding Rust code "porting/translating" so that its possible to make things like Google Webcomponents and/or the V8 regexp parser finally working, features which more and more websites require these days.

Without someone like that, things are getting more and more problematic web compatibility wise. But the ultimate question is... where to find someone like that? :crazy:
While you're not wrong to highlight those things, I think excessively focusing on solving those specific problems single-mindedly hasn't worked well over the past few years. To the point that we've neglected other things and failed to see the bigger picture problem.

One of the biggest problems is that we've depended so much on outdated tooling that is becoming almost as much work to maintain and work around as it would be to update. Things like VS2015 (which is actually holding things back more than you would think because it produces inferior binaries to newer versions and has bugs that make it harder to backport/implement the stuff we need). The laser focus on rushing out WebComponents backfired already in my opinion, when we needed to be taking a more holistic view of the project and the path forward.
"There are two sentences inscribed upon the Ancient oracle... 'Know thyself' and 'Nothing too much'; and upon these all other precepts depend." -- Plutarch

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Re: Code development (and my lack thereof)

Unread post by yereverluvinuncleber » 2022-08-17, 20:48

Sorry to hear that. If it helps, we all go through tough times at some point in our lives - but stepping into the light at the end of a dark tunnel is a release that you only appreciate when you have had to walk through that same tunnel.

Coding? How many times have I needed a break from my current major project? Loads of times, in fact too many to count. Coding is NOT life. Life is life. Go and get some and come back only when you feel the need and when it suits you to do so.
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Re: Code development (and my lack thereof)

Unread post by noellarkin » 2022-08-21, 05:50

Sorry to hear things aren't going as well as you'd like. Regarding the Pale Moon project, I actually have more faith in it than ever before - - the past few months have been great for web compatibility, with more and more websites working with every update. I'm really glad to be able to continue using Pale Moon. In fact, in the past month I've reduced my usage of Firefox/Chromium to almost nil, maybe just the occasional website a couple times a week. Despite whatever personal issues you're dealing with, you and your team are doing a fantastic job, and I'm happy to continue using your browser.

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Re: Code development (and my lack thereof)

Unread post by gorodn » 2022-10-20, 12:51

One of "those" sites burst in on me a couple of days ago, a user form which used to work now doesn't. Some messy detective work leads me to think that that site may be at fault, but looking at https://www.whatismybrowser.com/ it seems my PM 31.3.0.1 only has ECMAScript 10 (ES2019) installed, not ES2022. I have reason to believe the site I want to use is using ES2022.

I really do not want to lower myself to use one of those WebKit rubbish repositories to work with :thumbdown:
Sajadi wrote:
2022-08-13, 20:39
...
as someone is urgently needed who can handle the more complex ECMAScript/Javascript and CSS issues as this is the ultimate weakness of Pale Moon
...
Seriously, Pale Moon is probably the last useful browser standing. Where can I donate/pay for this? I pay US$27 for every major upgrade on Gammadyne Clyton -- why should a good browser be any different?

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Re: Code development (and my lack thereof)

Unread post by andyprough » 2022-10-20, 13:42

gorodn wrote:
2022-10-20, 12:51
Seriously, Pale Moon is probably the last useful browser standing. Where can I donate/pay for this? I pay US$27 for every major upgrade on Gammadyne Clyton -- why should a good browser be any different?
It's a great question, it should be more prominent, but instead you've got to navigate the home page menus to find it, but donations are given here: https://www.palemoon.org/donations.shtm ... _donations

Or there's a DONATE button at the bottom of the home page. There should be a prominent button near the top of the home page.
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Re: Code development (and my lack thereof)

Unread post by back2themoon » 2022-10-21, 01:06

Off-topic:
gorodn wrote:
2022-10-20, 12:51
I pay US$27 for every major upgrade on Gammadyne Clyton -- why should a good browser be any different?
Never heard of that - will check it out, while waiting for Epyrus.

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Re: Code development (and my lack thereof)

Unread post by Moonchild » 2022-10-21, 10:00

andyprough wrote:
2022-10-20, 13:42
There should be a prominent button near the top of the home page.
I guess you're completely missing the big banner on the right-hand side of the home page? :)
"The best revenge is to not be like the person who wronged you." -- Marcus Aurelius
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Re: Code development (and my lack thereof)

Unread post by andyprough » 2022-10-21, 18:39

Moonchild wrote:
2022-10-21, 10:00
I guess you're completely missing the big banner on the right-hand side of the home page? :)
Don't know why I didn't notice that before. It seems to blend into the theme and artwork of the page too well. Put a picture of some Boris Vallejo girls there, riding a dragon and shooting flaming arrows at a giant eagle or a nazgul or something. And say, "DONATE ... or suffer the wrath of the wyrm-riders".
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Re: Code development (and my lack thereof)

Unread post by gorodn » 2022-10-24, 07:49

gorodn wrote:
2022-10-20, 12:51
One of "those" sites burst in on me a couple of days ago, a user form which used to work now doesn't. Some messy detective work leads me to think that that site may be at fault, but looking at https://www.whatismybrowser.com/ it seems my PM 31.3.0.1 only has ECMAScript 10 (ES2019) installed, not ES2022. I have reason to believe the site I want to use is using ES2022.
First, sorry for reiterating my last, I should remember to keep to ONLY ONE SUBJECT per post :x

Second, I do actually have an idea how rough it can be as a dev, especially when the world seems to be falling apart at the seams, and you do have my sympathy Moonchild.

But, are we going to see a more recent version of ECMAScript any time soon? My daughter's Chrome (105.0.5195.127) opens the site I need, and it "only" has ECMA 11 (ES2020), although perhaps it's actually working because Chrome, so ES2022 isn't really necessary.

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Re: Code development (and my lack thereof)

Unread post by Moonchild » 2022-10-24, 10:32

gorodn wrote:
2022-10-24, 07:49
First, sorry for reiterating my last, I should remember to keep to ONLY ONE SUBJECT per post :x
You should remember to not tack on off-topic questions like this.
"The best revenge is to not be like the person who wronged you." -- Marcus Aurelius
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb

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