Plans for Pale Moon for Linux 27
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This board is for technical/general usage questions and troubleshooting for the Pale Moon browser only.
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This board is for technical/general usage questions and troubleshooting for the Pale Moon browser only.
Technical issues and questions not related to the Pale Moon browser should be posted in other boards!
Please keep off-topic and general discussion out of this board, thank you!
- trava90
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Plans for Pale Moon for Linux 27
With work continuing on Pale Moon 27's development, we have come to some decisions regarding the Linux version. Below are our current plans for v27 and beyond:
1. Currently we provide "generic" Linux binaries for 64-bit, 32-bit, as well as a specialized 32-bit build for Intel Atom processors. Much like their Windows counterparts, these Atom optimized builds do not perform significantly better than our regular Linux builds, and as such beginning with Pale Moon 27 the Linux Atom builds will be dropped and no longer provided by us. This will reduce complexity, both for us and the user, as well as allow us more time to focus on making core Pale Moon better, rather than supporting processor-specific builds. With that said, if you feel that the community would benefit from an Atom optimized Linux build, you are more than welcome to provide and maintain one! Please contact me if you're interested in doing this.
2. We are also considering dropping the generic 32-bit build as well. 32-bit Linux is becoming increasingly irrelevant in today's world. Many distro's either already have (such as Red Hat/CentOS, PCLinuxOS, etc.), or are talking about (Ubuntu, Fedora, OpenSUSE, etc.) no longer providing a 32-bit option. This will allow us to give the much more widely used 64-bit build more attention during our beta testing cycles. With that being said, we have no intention to break or remove 32bit compiler support from the code. I'd like to hear if any of you do still use 32 bit and the reasons why.
3. It has never been part of Pale Moon's mission to support older legacy technology or operating systems. With that in mind, we will be updating our build environment to CentOS 7. As a result, Pale Moon 27 will drop support for kernels below 3.10 (all modern Linux systems already use kernels newer than this). Newer system libs will be required as well, such as GTK 2.24, GLib 2.36, etc. (again, all modern Linux distros already use these updated libs). Moving to CentOS 7 will make our build environment easier to set up and maintain, allow us to easily build against newer libs (such as GTK, GStreamer, PulseAudio, etc.), and will make it easier to take advantage of newer compilers as we see fit.
Please note that all of the above only applies to the "generic" binaries that will be available at linux.palemoon.org and downloaded by the pminstaller.
1. Currently we provide "generic" Linux binaries for 64-bit, 32-bit, as well as a specialized 32-bit build for Intel Atom processors. Much like their Windows counterparts, these Atom optimized builds do not perform significantly better than our regular Linux builds, and as such beginning with Pale Moon 27 the Linux Atom builds will be dropped and no longer provided by us. This will reduce complexity, both for us and the user, as well as allow us more time to focus on making core Pale Moon better, rather than supporting processor-specific builds. With that said, if you feel that the community would benefit from an Atom optimized Linux build, you are more than welcome to provide and maintain one! Please contact me if you're interested in doing this.
2. We are also considering dropping the generic 32-bit build as well. 32-bit Linux is becoming increasingly irrelevant in today's world. Many distro's either already have (such as Red Hat/CentOS, PCLinuxOS, etc.), or are talking about (Ubuntu, Fedora, OpenSUSE, etc.) no longer providing a 32-bit option. This will allow us to give the much more widely used 64-bit build more attention during our beta testing cycles. With that being said, we have no intention to break or remove 32bit compiler support from the code. I'd like to hear if any of you do still use 32 bit and the reasons why.
3. It has never been part of Pale Moon's mission to support older legacy technology or operating systems. With that in mind, we will be updating our build environment to CentOS 7. As a result, Pale Moon 27 will drop support for kernels below 3.10 (all modern Linux systems already use kernels newer than this). Newer system libs will be required as well, such as GTK 2.24, GLib 2.36, etc. (again, all modern Linux distros already use these updated libs). Moving to CentOS 7 will make our build environment easier to set up and maintain, allow us to easily build against newer libs (such as GTK, GStreamer, PulseAudio, etc.), and will make it easier to take advantage of newer compilers as we see fit.
Please note that all of the above only applies to the "generic" binaries that will be available at linux.palemoon.org and downloaded by the pminstaller.
Re: Plans for Pale Moon for Linux 27
i am still using 32-bit OS, and have no plans to switch, and so my father. yet i'm ok with building my own binary, as i am already doing that. dunno about father, tho, 'cause he is using different distro.
the reason for not switching is simple: i don't need 64 bits. ;-)
the reason for not switching is simple: i don't need 64 bits. ;-)
Re: Plans for Pale Moon for Linux 27
Throwing my 2 cents in, all 3 suggestions sound great to me. Thumbs UP for the progress of Pale Moon Linux!! Absolutely love the browser and it only gets better.
Re: Plans for Pale Moon for Linux 27
Sounds great! Really looking forward to Pale Moon 27.
Re: Plans for Pale Moon for Linux 27
Ditto here - we have a couple of boxes that are running 32-bit Mint just because we don't need a 64-bit OS running on them.ketmar wrote:i am still using 32-bit OS, .... i don't need 64 bits.
Nichi nichi kore ko jitsu = Every day is a good day.
Re: Plans for Pale Moon for Linux 27
My CPU (Pentium M) is 32-bit, so 64-bit is not an option on it. Everything else sounds ok to me I think.Nigaikaze wrote:Ditto here - we have a couple of boxes that are running 32-bit Mint just because we don't need a 64-bit OS running on them.ketmar wrote:i am still using 32-bit OS, .... i don't need 64 bits.
Re: Plans for Pale Moon for Linux 27
My PCs are all Linux 32-BIT.
I do not intend or need to change to 64 bits...
Please. please...
keep the generic 32-bit version of Palemoon alive.
SFdudePM
San Francisco
I do not intend or need to change to 64 bits...
Please. please...
keep the generic 32-bit version of Palemoon alive.
SFdudePM
San Francisco
Re: Plans for Pale Moon for Linux 27
Considering the general response here I've poked at some log files for stats and it seems quite a few of our Linux users (if going by useragent) are still on i686 (~20%!). I think we may have to keep 32-bit around for a bit longer? Of course I have no idea how many of those are using our binaries and how many are built from source...
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite
Re: Plans for Pale Moon for Linux 27
Hi! I'm using 32bit Linux Debian (Jessie-stable) / Pale Moon Latest version: 26.4.0.1 (x86 tar.bz2) binary version.
I really hope you keep longer as much you can 32-bit.
My old Dell from (2007) using Debian netinst. Customized very minimal for my preferences. Pale Moon is my main browser. It's very light too.
32-bit aren't that older. The noted distro's above are corporate works. Often they make decisions contrary to the measure according to their plans.
Please keep going with 32-bit. Thank you very much for your possibility, you're giving us a better navigation feeling with Pale Moon.
Nili
I really hope you keep longer as much you can 32-bit.
My old Dell from (2007) using Debian netinst. Customized very minimal for my preferences. Pale Moon is my main browser. It's very light too.
32-bit aren't that older. The noted distro's above are corporate works. Often they make decisions contrary to the measure according to their plans.
Please keep going with 32-bit. Thank you very much for your possibility, you're giving us a better navigation feeling with Pale Moon.
Nili
- trava90
- Contributing developer
- Posts: 1741
- Joined: 2013-05-20, 18:19
- Location: Somewhere in Sector 001
Re: Plans for Pale Moon for Linux 27
Based on feedback we've received thus far (and the logs that Moonchild has pulled) 32bit Linux builds won't be going anywhere.
I'll evaluate if cross-compiling in our new CentOS 7 environment works (have previously run into issues), or if we'll continue using our current environment for 32-bit builds.
Thanks all for your feedback so far!
I'll evaluate if cross-compiling in our new CentOS 7 environment works (have previously run into issues), or if we'll continue using our current environment for 32-bit builds.
Thanks all for your feedback so far!
Re: Plans for Pale Moon for Linux 27
That's good news trava90 - Thank you guys, I appreciate people behind Pale Moon hearing users feedback.
Nili
Nili
Re: Plans for Pale Moon for Linux 27
May be a good idea for 32bit builds to consider it somewhat of a compatibility build least for the time being. So it could use those older libs and older compiler ABI etc..
The thing about 32bit on linux is unless your hardware is not capable of running 64 bit code (using processors more than 7-10 years old) there is no objective reason to use 32bit.. It isn't like there are a bunch of 32bit npapi plugins running around linux we need to support.. Only old hardware and older linux systems.. Which I question if the systems aren't actually 64bit in most cases and users are using 32bit out of habit or some misconception.
The thing about 32bit on linux is unless your hardware is not capable of running 64 bit code (using processors more than 7-10 years old) there is no objective reason to use 32bit.. It isn't like there are a bunch of 32bit npapi plugins running around linux we need to support.. Only old hardware and older linux systems.. Which I question if the systems aren't actually 64bit in most cases and users are using 32bit out of habit or some misconception.
Re: Plans for Pale Moon for Linux 27
I haven't really seen any real advantages of 64-bit distros over 32-bit distros. most modern 32-bit distros include support for PAE though, which allows you to use more than 4GB of RAM.
Re: Plans for Pale Moon for Linux 27
THANK YOU, Pale Moon developers, for listening to your users! Heart attack postponed, but for how long?trava90 wrote:Based on feedback we've received thus far (and the logs that Moonchild has pulled) 32bit Linux builds won't be going anywhere.
This is what Moonchild wrote on the matter just a few months ago: viewtopic.php?t=10797#p75490. I actually read and bookmarked that thread at the time and felt reassured, and feel reassured again today.
Why? Simple: my laptop and two desktop computers are 32-bit. They work perfectly fine -- and I won't spend the extra money on newer hardware just for the sake of getting the 64-bit architecture. No way! I don't need the latest "shiney". Does this ring a bell, Pale Moon devs? So I will use the computers I already have until they stop functioning.trava90 wrote:I'd like to hear if any of you do still use 32 bit and the reasons why.
Noted. But the fact is that Pale Moon performs really well on older machines, contrary totrava90 wrote:It has never been part of Pale Moon's mission to support older legacy technology or operating systems.
In my opinion, discontinuing 32-bit versions would be way too early! As a reminder, Ubuntu 16.04 LTS (and thus Linux Mint 18) will be supported until 2021. So PLEASE don't do what Google did with Chrome (not that I care about Chrome -- I don't).
Last edited by Aube Bleue on 2016-08-28, 20:14, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Plans for Pale Moon for Linux 27
Thank you, Moonchild and Trava90
for listening to your 32-bit user community,
fans & friends of the great Pale Moon browser.
I always use the pre-compiled
latest version to Upgrade my 32-bit Pale Moon browser -
(with the Bash update utility...works like a charm).
(Thank you!)^1000
SFdudePM
for listening to your 32-bit user community,
fans & friends of the great Pale Moon browser.
I always use the pre-compiled
latest version to Upgrade my 32-bit Pale Moon browser -
(with the Bash update utility...works like a charm).
(Thank you!)^1000
SFdudePM
Last edited by SfdudePM on 2016-08-29, 16:53, edited 1 time in total.
- trava90
- Contributing developer
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- Location: Somewhere in Sector 001
Re: Plans for Pale Moon for Linux 27
Agreed. I think this is the best course going forward.Matt A Tobin wrote:May be a good idea for 32bit builds to consider it somewhat of a compatibility build least for the time being. So it could use those older libs and older compiler ABI etc..
For as long as there's a substantial demand for it. It's not something we're just going to drop for no reason. If the time comes that we feel we should to re-evalute this (which I don't foresee happening for a long time), we will once again ask for community feedback before making a decision (as we've done here).Aube Bleue wrote:Heart attack postponed, but for how long?
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Re: Plans for Pale Moon for Linux 27
Thanks for keeping Pale Moon 27 on GTK2! If and when you decide to migrate to the abomination known as GTK3, I hope you don't remove the ability to compile against GTK2.
Regardless of Pale Moon's future plans I would like to give a big thanks for everything you guys have built and shared. It is greatly appreciated.
Regardless of Pale Moon's future plans I would like to give a big thanks for everything you guys have built and shared. It is greatly appreciated.
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Re: Plans for Pale Moon for Linux 27
For my own personal use, I build a slightly cut down version of the Atom build for my netbook. I could make an equivalant version available as a contributed build when 27 goes live. Anybody want an "Atom-build" equivalant build for v27? If so, a few questions...
- Do you want pulseaudio support?
- Do you want "Necko-Wifi", i.e. allowing a vendor to locate you based on nearby wifi IDs?
- Do you want WebRTC?
- Are you running 32 or 64 bit linux on the Atom?
- Finally, please post the output from the command
AS RUN ON YOUR ATOM. This is for figuring out the cpu type.
Code: Select all
gcc -march=native -E -v - </dev/null 2>&1 | grep cc1
There's a right way
There's a wrong way
And then there's my way
There's a wrong way
And then there's my way
Re: Plans for Pale Moon for Linux 27
There is no justifiable reason for THESE kinds of contributed or otherwise builds anymore.. ALSO removing and changing features won't likely get certification and permission to use our branding as this would cause a lot of confusion.
Doing what is required for a platform target is one thing but dramatically changing the substance of what makes up the browser is quite another.
You can however follow the MPL and make your own materially changed browser with your own branding for distribution.
Doing what is required for a platform target is one thing but dramatically changing the substance of what makes up the browser is quite another.
You can however follow the MPL and make your own materially changed browser with your own branding for distribution.
Re: Plans for Pale Moon for Linux 27
+10strodamus wrote:Thanks for keeping Pale Moon 27 on GTK2! If and when you decide to migrate to the abomination known as GTK3, I hope you don't remove the ability to compile against GTK2.