Some questions inspired by Mozillazine discussion

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Re: Some questions inspired by Mozillazine discussion

Post by Moonchild » 2014-10-31, 09:06

dr_st wrote:While I understand your position on MozillaZine, you surely know that the way you describe their community is exactly how they feel about yours, sometimes down to the same words you used.
Just responding to this: You can go through both fora and compare notes, if you like. There is a huge difference between general attitude and atmosphere. Yes, of course we have a few posts about the absolutely hostile reception most users have gotten over at MozillaZine, and some choice words in there. That's a normal human response. At the same time, people on MozillaZine might find that hostile towards them if they read those posts and identify themselves with that forum "as a whole" or as a MozillaZine community/entity.

Difference is: we don't judge people for using Firefox when they visit here. We may not exactly provide support to them (since there are Firefox specific support resources available better suited to those questions) but we certainly welcome them just the same. I fully support people choosing Firefox if it works better for them.
Conversely, Pale Moon users over there are "baited and sniped" as-per-policy, simply by being recognized as Pale Moon users (through useragent posting or mentioning of the name, to name some). That's no way to treat your guests, IMNSHO. Not to mention the fact that we, the staff here, are blatantly accused by MozillaZine staff of "sending trolls their way" to be disruptive... We don't do that, it serves no purpose, I do take personal offense to such accusations, and I certainly discourage anyone from acting in such a childish, disruptive, and generally unconstructive way. Thankfully, the thing we've been accused of in the other direction has been limited so far to one obnoxious individual (KenGreeb) who has been given the time and opportunity within normal bounds of forum etiquette and moderation to have their say, even after it was clear they were here just to stir up things. I hope we don't have to deal with too much of that in the future since it's just a waste of everyone's time.

They may feel like we are hostile towards them, but the hostility here towards the MozillaZine forum - as an entity and more specifically in the shape of certain moderators over there who abuse their power - is hostility that is instigated by their own behavior. We are allowed to at least react and discuss such things on our forum, are we not? I think there's maybe 2 threads here that actually discuss the hatred displayed towards Pale Moon users who have visited there, and the rest of the forum content is focused on Pale Moon issues and general Internet discussion. People can voice their opinions, I think, even if it may not be opinions that visitors from other parts of the Internet may necessarily agree with. Or that I agree with, for that matter. It may spark heated discussions sometimes, but as long as things stay civil, they can run their course. It's an open forum, after all. There are no prerequisites apart from behaving yourself properly.

It's sad that there is this negativity; I'd rather not see it, but I do understand why people feel the way they do, and policing that is certainly not conducive to normal forum discussion, so in general, we don't.

Please do step back a moment and look at the overall picture on both fora if you want to compare.
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Re: Some questions inspired by Mozillazine discussion

Post by Night Wing » 2014-10-31, 11:27

All the regulars at Mozillazine who got on my case for choosing Pale Moon over Firefox starting with version 12 of Firefox....all of them are on my Foe list over there except the moderator because a moderator can not be put on someone's Foe list. So I do not see their obnoxious comments anymore about Pale Moon and have not seem them for a few years now and I've been a member on Mozillazine for three years now.

Why do I still visit Mozillazine? Ever since Mozilla discontinued the non Australis 24 ESR versions and now there is only stable Australis Firefox 33 and Australis Firefox 31 ESR, (in Windows 7) I use Internet Explorer as my backup to Pale Moon and in linux Mint 17, I use linux SeaMonkey 2.30 as my backup browser to linux Pale Moon. This choice by me is done on all four of my computers.

And with the above said, I no longer visit the Firefox forums at Mozillazine because I have no need to anymore. I mostly visit the SeaMonkey forums over at Mozillazine to see what is going on with SeaMonkey. On all of my four computers, Firefox 24.8.1 ESR is still installed on my computers, but I do not use it, but at this time I do not want to uninstall it from any of my computers. Come to think of it, I've also got the Firefox 24.8.3 ESR version external installer for Windows 7 and also the linux tarball for linux Firefox 24.8.1 ESR on a few thumb/flash drives.
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Re: Some questions inspired by Mozillazine discussion

Post by Jonguy30 » 2014-10-31, 17:20

About technical stuff... these guys clearly do not understand how Open Source works. They seem to think that Firefox is somehow a closed software or something to that effect and that developing a fork is somehow a "mission impossible" (why should firefox be any different than other Open Source applications? And there are many software that's developed by a single person, or a very small team). They also think rewriting themes and extensions to work in Pale Moon is a violation of some sort.

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Re: Some questions inspired by Mozillazine discussion

Post by Sajadi » 2014-10-31, 18:55

Jonguy30 wrote:They also think rewriting themes and extensions to work in Pale Moon is a violation of some sort.
Which is actually funny - there exists an add-on converter for Seamonkey which converts both Thunderbird and "FireChrome" add-ons for usage with Seamonkey. Strange that it is in that case justified, but in Pale Moon's case it is seen as crime?

These guys have a very strange way to decide what is right or wrong. Or simply no clue at all :twisted:

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Re: Some questions inspired by Mozillazine discussion

Post by Lootyhoof » 2014-10-31, 19:04

Jonguy30 wrote:They also think rewriting themes and extensions to work in Pale Moon is a violation of some sort.
This does, of course, depend on the license used for the themes/extensions in question. In that thread, they specifically provided the license to NASA Night Launch, which does prohibit redistribution/modification (unless otherwise stated by the author); this same license is used on a few themes. For those that are on an open-source license, though, with no other mention of any specific licenses, I personally don't see a problem.

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Re: Some questions inspired by Mozillazine discussion

Post by Jonguy30 » 2014-10-31, 19:15

Sajadi wrote:
Jonguy30 wrote:They also think rewriting themes and extensions to work in Pale Moon is a violation of some sort.
Which is actually funny - there exists an add-on converter for Seamonkey which converts both Thunderbird and "FireChrome" add-ons for usage with Seamonkey. Strange that it is in that case justified, but in Pale Moon's case it is seen as crime?

These guys have a very strange way to decide what is right or wrong. Or simply no clue at all :twisted:
Of course it's allowed for SeaMonkey. It's endorsed by Mozilla (Foundation) after all! But Pale Moon is a "wannabe fork" ( :lol: ) as they put it, and porting is not allowed in such cases!

:think:

@Lootyhoof You make a good point. Tbh, I'm not totally sure either about such cases. But if it works without modifications then there's no problem installing and using it?

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Re: Some questions inspired by Mozillazine discussion

Post by Lootyhoof » 2014-10-31, 19:31

Jonguy30 wrote:But if it works without modifications then there's no problem installing and using it?
Exactly. Without modification, though, and without official PM support, the only thing not themed is the URL bar RSS icon (which can be added), assuming you use a Firefox 24-compatible theme (or an older version thereof), of course. Depending on the theme, the identity box padlocks provided by PM might look a little out of place, too.

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Re: Some questions inspired by Mozillazine discussion

Post by dr_st » 2014-11-01, 15:05

Moonchild wrote:
dr_st wrote:While I understand your position on MozillaZine, you surely know that the way you describe their community is exactly how they feel about yours, sometimes down to the same words you used.
Just responding to this: You can go through both fora and compare notes, if you like. There is a huge difference between general attitude and atmosphere. Yes, of course we have a few posts about the absolutely hostile reception most users have gotten over at MozillaZine, and some choice words in there. That's a normal human response. At the same time, people on MozillaZine might find that hostile towards them if they read those posts and identify themselves with that forum "as a whole" or as a MozillaZine community/entity.
Yes, you are right. It took me a couple of weeks and a lot of reading on both forums to pick up enough history and reach this conclusion (as well as a sufficient understanding to the reason of said hostility on MozillaZine).
Jonguy30 wrote:About technical stuff... these guys clearly do not understand how Open Source works. They seem to think that Firefox is somehow a closed software or something to that effect and that developing a fork is somehow a "mission impossible" (why should firefox be any different than other Open Source applications? And there are many software that's developed by a single person, or a very small team).
That's not strictly accurate. Attitude aside, some of the guys most active in bashing Pale Moon have a very good understanding of how open source (and software development in general) works, which is quite expected, as they are developers themselves, sometimes in the Mozilla scene itself.

Their fundamental claim is actually quite simple - that a web browser is such a complex project that a single person / small team will not be able to keep up for long with the large organizations. It is certainly a claim that sounds plausible. Is it truly a "mission impossible"? There were certainly past attempts that failed. Trivializing the arguments of the "nay-sayers" will not make it the task easier. It is certainly challenging, and I am confident that everyone on the Pale Moon team knows it. :)

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Re: Some questions inspired by Mozillazine discussion

Post by Night Wing » 2014-11-01, 16:27

dr_st wrote:Their fundamental claim is actually quite simple - that a web browser is such a complex project that a single person / small team will not be able to keep up for long with the large organizations. It is certainly a claim that sounds plausible. Is it truly a "mission impossible"? There were certainly past attempts that failed. Trivializing the arguments of the "nay-sayers" will not make it the task easier. It is certainly challenging, and I am confident that everyone on the Pale Moon team knows it. :)
I'm just curious. What do you think is more difficult. Keeping up with a complex browser or keeping up with a complex operating system.
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Re: Some questions inspired by Mozillazine discussion

Post by dr_st » 2014-11-01, 17:07

I sense a trick question, but an operating system is still, fundamentally, more complex than a browser. So the latter is more difficult. :P

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Re: Some questions inspired by Mozillazine discussion

Post by Jonguy30 » 2014-11-01, 17:22

Even if they're developers themselves and involved in the mozilla scene in some way that still doesn't give them the right to bash, ridicule and discredit the Pale Moon project. They seem to think their opinion is worth more just because they're devs and mozilla contributors, or rather they think their opinions are facts.

How do they know Pale Moon is an utterly complex software that can't be maintained very far into the future? Have they looked at the code? I bet not, since they can't even be bothered to do a test run on their computers. It's incredibly easy to go to the Pale Moon web page, download and install. And if they don't like it, it takes only a moment to uninstall.

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Re: Some questions inspired by Mozillazine discussion

Post by Sajadi » 2014-11-01, 18:34

There are way more one/two guy browser projects which also do survive... Qupzilla, Midori, Otter-Browser

The question is NOT the complexity of the project, the question is how long is the developer interested in developing and if there is always some time left to push the project further and further in the future.

But even then it is only a theoretical problem, the great thing with Open Source is - if there is a point where the original developer gives up/vanishes - people are free to take over.

Seen from that point of view, the Mozillazine guys do know nothing at all - they speculate and bash for ONE reason... they can't accept it that Pale Moon manages to keep the classic UI alive and draws even more people away from "Googlezilla Firechrome!

Off Topic... "Googlezilla Firechrome" fallen to 13% marketshare now!

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Re: Some questions inspired by Mozillazine discussion

Post by dr_st » 2014-11-01, 18:38

Jonguy30 wrote:Even if they're developers themselves and involved in the mozilla scene in some way that still doesn't give them the right to bash, ridicule and discredit the Pale Moon project. They seem to think their opinion is worth more just because they're devs and mozilla contributors, or rather they think their opinions are facts.
The approach to the discussion chosen by some of the folks there is a totally different issue. It is what it is, it is known to all, and at this point I see no reason to waste any more time on it, or confront any of them on it.
Jonguy30 wrote:How do they know Pale Moon is an utterly complex software that can't be maintained very far into the future? Have they looked at the code? I bet not, since they can't even be bothered to do a test run on their computers. It's incredibly easy to go to the Pale Moon web page, download and install. And if they don't like it, it takes only a moment to uninstall.
Well, Pale Moon is a web browser. Moreover, it is a web browser based on the Mozilla code. Therefore someone who is familiar with said code and has followed the development of Firefox (or other Mozilla-based browsers) can reasonably say he understands what it means to maintain a browser over time, even without direct experience with Pale Moon or its source. That does not mean he is guaranteed to be right. :)

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Re: Some questions inspired by Mozillazine discussion

Post by Night Wing » 2014-11-02, 03:57

dr_st wrote:I sense a trick question, but an operating system is still, fundamentally, more complex than a browser. So the latter is more difficult. :P
Not a trick question. Just to make a point concerning browsers and operating systems.

Over at Mozillazine, they claim a one man operation can't keep up with a complex browser. Yet, one linux distro, SolydXK, is a complex operating system and it is basically a one man operation. In fact, it's expanded into 5 sub flavors. SolydK Home Edition, SolydX Home Edition, SolydK Business Edition, SolydX Business Edition and SolydK Back Office. Not too shabby for a "one man operation".

http://solydxk.com/

In other words, not everytime, but sometimes, "One man can make a difference" in spite of the naysayers. But, me being pragmatic, "time will ultimately tell".
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Re: Some questions inspired by Mozillazine discussion

Post by Sajadi » 2014-11-02, 10:27

Night Wing wrote:
dr_st wrote:I sense a trick question, but an operating system is still, fundamentally, more complex than a browser. So the latter is more difficult. :P
Not a trick question. Just to make a point concerning browsers and operating systems.

Over at Mozillazine, they claim a one man operation can't keep up with a complex browser. Yet, one linux distro, SolydXK, is a complex operating system and it is basically a one man operation. In fact, it's expanded into 5 sub flavors. SolydK Home Edition, SolydX Home Edition, SolydK Business Edition, SolydX Business Edition and SolydK Back Office. Not too shabby for a "one man operation".

http://solydxk.com/

In other words, not everytime, but sometimes, "One man can make a difference" in spite of the naysayers. But, me being pragmatic, "time will ultimately tell".
You confirm my earlier point, as it is also possible for people like the maker of Qupzilla or Midori or Otter browser to keep on going - and these projects are also only 1-2 person maintained projects.

Do they have few users? - Yes.
Offer these browsers a stable and long lasting customizable experience? - Yes.
Do you have any guarantees that that stays that way? - No.
Seen otherwise do you have ANY guarantees that big browsers companies are around forever? - No.

That's it spoken out in very simple words ;)
Last edited by Sajadi on 2014-11-02, 11:19, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Some questions inspired by Mozillazine discussion

Post by Jonguy30 » 2014-11-02, 10:30

And sometimes being a small team is more efficient than a large team. Because a large team can get very messed up ("too big for your own good"), you know with the different ranks and such to keep up, but ultimately it's still the "leader" saying how things should go, so it's still that "one man" who's the lead developer. But a small team can be more focused instead, not having to worry about team management and other things, it takes focus away from development, and more importantly, their user base.

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Re: Some questions inspired by Mozillazine discussion

Post by Sajadi » 2014-11-02, 11:21

Jonguy30 wrote:And sometimes being a small team is more efficient than a large team. Because a large team can get very messed up ("too big for your own good"), you know with the different ranks and such to keep up, but ultimately it's still the "leader" saying how things should go, so it's still that "one man" who's the lead developer. But a small team can be more focused instead, not having to worry about team management and other things, it takes focus away from development, and more importantly, their user base.
And they get possible victims of larger companies if they seem valuable - exactly what is happening with Mozilla - Google took interest in them, sponsors them and has some kind of influence over them. Google should try that with Pale Moon - i am sure Moonchild would refuse to do so! The smaller you stay and the more uninteresting you are for the big boys, as long you can stay independent and you can do what YOU want, not what Google or someone else demands from you.

Mozilla has not seen that coming, now they pay the price! :twisted:

For this reason alone i never ever again would use a browser of the big boys.. Because you can never be sure that there is no takeover at some point, and different management means different development politics. Again, the relationship Mozilla-Google shows that more then clear!

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Re: Some questions inspired by Mozillazine discussion

Post by Night Wing » 2014-11-02, 12:05

One thing is for sure. Right now, all the "big" mainstream browsers (IE, Chrome, Firefox, Safari) chase after market share. Microsoft, Google and Apple have the deep monetary pockets for chasing market share. IMO, Apple builds computer devices so I don't think Apple is too concerned about Safari's market share.

Firefox chases market share just like Google does. Unfortunately for Mozilla's Firefox, it doesn't have the deep monetary pockets that Google has for Chrome. I think Mozilla decided to make Firefox with Australis UI in mind for when Mozilla gets Firefox OS going. But, I think Mozilla is already too late to the game and I really believe the game is over for Mozilla and the Firefox browser for mobile.

By concentrating on mobile, I believe Mozilla alienated it's desktop Firefox users when it decided the Australis UI was the way to go. This is probably one of the reasons why Firefox's "desktop" market share continues to "bleed users" percentage wise and now stands at 13.91% if one goes by Net Market Share while Chrome keeps going up percentage wise and now stands at (21.25%). In a few short years down the road, when it comes to desktop browsers, I think it's going to be the "big two", IE and Chrome....and then everybody else way far behind in terms of percentage.

http://www.netmarketshare.com/browser-m ... pcustomb=0

Small non mainstream desktop browsers like Pale Moon, Midori, Ice Weasel, Qupzilla, Slim Browser, etc; don't chase after market share. I don't know what Pale Moon's market share is and I don't care what it is. The only thing I care about is if Pale Moon continues on in both Windows and Linux.
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Re: Some questions inspired by Mozillazine discussion

Post by Sajadi » 2014-11-02, 12:31

Night Wing wrote:By concentrating on mobile, I believe Mozilla alienated it's desktop Firefox users when it decided the Australis UI was the way to go.

Small non mainstream desktop browsers like Pale Moon, Midori, Ice Weasel, Qupzilla, Slim Browser, etc; don't chase after market share.
Mozilla has not even the manpower and resources to keep Firefox in a very healthy state - instead it is bug and otherwise problem ridden...With focusing now more on mobile they continue now this half-assed development. Not only in one direction - now they deliver 2 half baken bad products, even more as before when they concentrated on Firefox alone.

And here we have the beauty of smaller projects like the above mentioned again! Not chasing after marketshare means browsers like these can decide freely to stay with customizable browsers because they do not have to satisfy the raw mass of people who demand these days minimalistic, simple option-less products which "go out of their way and do not confuse too much" - Browser developers like Mozilla and Opera - who once delivered customization to their userbase also partly decided to abandon that group of users because they are thinking they will not survive on a longer run when not targeting mainly the raw simplistic and minimalistic user mass.

What Opera and Mozilla are forgetting, there is already Google doing so. And to beat Google in this game... is a waste of time and is indeed alienating the existing userbase.

Why should the minimalistic loving mass of Chrome users target Mozilla Firefox or Opera when Chrome has not only streamlined to almost 100% minimalism and simplicity and is additionally to a very high degree future technology proof or continues to develop state of the art techniques and HTML5 features/Audio-Video codec improvements while Opera, Mozilla and the rest is only running behind because of not having the exact amount of man power and money available for being at least equal.

Short and simple... Mozilla and others can't hope to beat Chrome in advancing and minimalism, but they can beat it with customization options and user choices - But instead they are throwing that away!

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Re: Some questions inspired by Mozillazine discussion

Post by Moonchild » 2014-11-02, 22:21

And remember, kids: You can always customize your browser to remove as many UI elements as you like. But adding them, now that's a different tale.
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