Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

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Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Post by Trinoc » 2014-10-15, 13:03

I see threads where the new direction of Palemoon since V25 is discussed or criticised, or where work-arounds are suggested, are being routinely locked, even where the discussion is entirely polite.

Is it possible we could have an area of the forums, maybe just this thread, where we can debate these points without getting an admin post saying "this is how it is and we won't debate it further", followed by locking the thread? I really think there are valid points to discuss here. If the admins would prefer not to join in and just leave it to the users, that's fine, but please allow us to talk amongst ourselves about it.

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Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2014-10-15, 13:09

The problem is that we have been willing to discuss the changes but it just goes over and over and over again in circles with new threads and continued rehashing of the same point over and over again.
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Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Post by brushy » 2014-10-15, 13:39

I subodore all the efforts i made on my Pale Moon 25 since a month will be destroy with all these complaints at the end.

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Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Post by Trinoc » 2014-10-15, 13:48

Matt A Tobin wrote:The problem is that we have been willing to discuss the changes but it just goes over and over and over again in circles with new threads and continued rehashing of the same point over and over again.
There are plenty of things we can discuss without rehashing old arguments. Just a few I thought of:
  • Comparing notes about web sites that don't render correctly in Palemoon (or those which render better than in other browsers).
  • Listing the add-ons we use and which ones we would particularly not like to lose.
  • Noting which add-ons work out of the box, which can be adapted with simple changes such as adding the Palemoon GUID, and those which appear to be completely borked.
  • Where an add-on can't be made to work, finding alternative ways to achieve what it used to do.
I'm sure all of this can be done in a perfectly polite manner in the spirit of mutual help rather than appearing to bash the admins for not doing things the way we wanted.

Jonguy30

Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Post by Jonguy30 » 2014-10-15, 14:00

Trinoc wrote:
Matt A Tobin wrote:The problem is that we have been willing to discuss the changes but it just goes over and over and over again in circles with new threads and continued rehashing of the same point over and over again.
There are plenty of things we can discuss without rehashing old arguments. Just a few I thought of:
  • Comparing notes about web sites that don't render correctly in Palemoon (or those which render better than in other browsers).
  • Listing the add-ons we use and which ones we would particularly not like to lose.
  • Noting which add-ons work out of the box, which can be adapted with simple changes such as adding the Palemoon GUID, and those which appear to be completely borked.
  • Where an add-on can't be made to work, finding alternative ways to achieve what it used to do.
I'm sure all of this can be done in a perfectly polite manner in the spirit of mutual help rather than appearing to bash the admins for not doing things the way we wanted.

Almost all of your points have been addressed to people complaining about them. First point is a problem with user-agent sniffing, all that can be done is to contact the webmaster(s), and if they refuse you can use an extension (or about:config entry) to get around these issues. Second point, well there's a thread on this forum for add-on incompatibility reports. Third point, see my answer to the second point. Also pseudo-static versions of certain extensions are being developed, you can also contact add-on developers and ask them to support the browser directly. Fourth point, well, you can always develop your own add-on, and if not, request an add-on to be developed.

Again, these have been (and is being) addressed, this is just going in circles as Tobin said.

brushy

Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Post by brushy » 2014-10-15, 14:11

Yes a circle. about add-ons all is already said... changing a user agent? changing the color of a tab? you people i think you exagerate a little when developers are trying with all problems you perfectly know to give you the browser of your dreams! polite manner? well this forum is full of this kind of thread! read please, read before pleurnicher!

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Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2014-10-15, 14:16

Trinoc wrote: There are plenty of things we can discuss without rehashing old arguments. [...]
>rehashes everything
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Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Post by Trinoc » 2014-10-15, 14:24

OK, then I guess we just sit back and see what happens. Will Palemoon still have the edge over other browsers once PM25 settles down? I really don't know.

brushy

Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Post by brushy » 2014-10-15, 14:36

Btw the direction you want to discuss is not negociable, just because it is the best, and like all the best things it needs some efforts and attention. My direction > je sors.

Jonguy30

Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Post by Jonguy30 » 2014-10-15, 14:40

I believe everything will settle down. There will always be disgruntled users, even more so when a drastic change like this happens. Forum is filled with dozens of the same "You broke my browser (or extensions)!" posts. We have also have tried explaining why this GUID change is necessary for further development, and we also forewarned users about incompatible extensions. People most likely didn't follow the news. People shouldn't have reacted this way. But you know, this is the modern Internet.

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Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Post by Supernova » 2014-10-15, 15:58

A thought I had today : shouldn't be the update system be adapted, so that there is a clear difference between major and minor version updates ?
Moonchild had a valid point about the fact that PM 25 is a true major version, not like all the rapide releases version ; however the update prompt do not show any kind of warning/information about that.
Of course there is the releases notes link, but only some people will read that (and that's a fact, just saying users blabla is not a valid answer while the browser is still directed to serve users ; especially since the actual direction can work only if enough people use Pale Moon), not talking about these who just don't know enough english to do so.
Since the next major version is probably not before one or two years, there is plenty of time to adapt the update system ; but this should already be added on the todo list.

The perfect way would have still a few fix versions for the previous major but this would be possible only with a true team working on Pale Moon, not just Moonchild & now also Tobin.

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Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2014-10-15, 16:04

There actually is.. it is a bit subtle but there is a difference. Also if you have automatic updates on then you will never be automatically updated to a major version without your approval only to a minor version. This is defined in the update xml files.

However, that being said perhaps some rewording is in order. Though the process will not likely change.

As for future major versions.. The version scheme laid out now is more or less.. Milestone.Major.Minor(or security)

So 25.0.1 is a minor/security update (which has small fixes and security patches)
25.1.0 will be a major update (as in we may have upgraded a component or made a significant improvements and changes).
26.0.0 will be a Milestone update which is also classified as major but more game changing and may introduce breakages or majorly change the behavior of something compared to how something was done in previous versions (like 25 did).

Of course there will be rare exceptions but in general that is how I understand it to work from here on out.

Your BEST bet is always check the Release Notes before you update to a milestone or major version. Actually you should check the release notes for every update to stay informed on what has changed.
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Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Post by Supernova » 2014-10-15, 16:25

Matt A Tobin wrote:There actually is.. it is a bit subtle but there is a difference. Also if you have automatic updates on then you will never be automatically updated to a major version only a minor version. This is defined in the update xml files.
Er ; the scheme I was refering was more Major.minor.security. I felt like it was Moonchild one after his post about 25 being a true major version.
Anyway, I didn't noticed a big difference in the prompt between, say 24.7 and 25.0. There may be a subtle one if you say so, but what is needed would be more an obvious one. :)

brushy

Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Post by brushy » 2014-10-15, 16:28

Blablabla? Another sarcasmes without quotes, well. Maybe i do not know english but i do not confuse discussing an important thing like the Pale Moon direction and a simple eventual update adjustement.

Supernova

Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Post by Supernova » 2014-10-15, 16:37

Buggy, You can sometimes be a good folk ; but seeing you so often being agressive is TRULY annoying. If you have a doubt about the meaning of something - which can very well happen - don't take the worst option to attack the other.
"just saying users blabla" => just saying that users should read release note/it was clearly stated on the forum or whatever about the fact that users are careless, at least compared to regular forum members. I just didn't want to expand about what could be said about how users should act, because this just wasn't the topic of my post.

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Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2014-10-15, 16:52

Supernova wrote:
Matt A Tobin wrote:There actually is.. it is a bit subtle but there is a difference. Also if you have automatic updates on then you will never be automatically updated to a major version only a minor version. This is defined in the update xml files.
Er ; the scheme I was refering was more Major.minor.security. I felt like it was Moonchild one after his post about 25 being a true major version.
Anyway, I didn't noticed a big difference in the prompt between, say 24.7 and 25.0. There may be a subtle one if you say so, but what is needed would be more an obvious one. :)
And 25.0.0 was a milestone level major update.
Matt A Tobin wrote:a Milestone update which is also classified as major but more game changing and may introduce breakages or majorly change the behavior of something compared to how something was done in previous versions.
Also as Moonchild indicated we want to make OUR versioning scheme actually meaningful to actually show the level of development and change which simply isn't done much anymore because lolgottahavethehighesteversionevar. So YEAH!

Also take a read of this: http://binaryoutcast.com/techcentral/editorials/what-version-is-it-anyway/
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Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Post by brushy » 2014-10-15, 16:56

I don't care what you think about what i am sometimes or what i am not, but please use the appropriate quotes next time you attack me in a off-topic post

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Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Post by sIDcORK » 2014-10-15, 18:04

As we are freely discussing things I would like to express my gratitude to all those who have been involved in making this fantastic program.

Further, those who have been working extremely hard to iron out the problems with add-ons etc and are being incredibly patient with people on this forum.

If you experienced Firefox breaking far more add-ons when they started their rapid release scheduling you will know that they provided zero (0) support for users and many add-on developers simply gave up, there are loads of abandoned add-ons as a result, people round here are providing support and actually fixing things.

So, thank you all, I at least appreciate all your work.

Some people should have a little lie down.

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Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2014-10-15, 19:44

sIDcORK wrote:As we are freely discussing things I would like to express my gratitude to all those who have been involved in making this fantastic program.

Further, those who have been working extremely hard to iron out the problems with add-ons etc and are being incredibly patient with people on this forum.

If you experienced Firefox breaking far more add-ons when they started their rapid release scheduling you will know that they provided zero (0) support for users and many add-on developers simply gave up, there are loads of abandoned add-ons as a result, people round here are providing support and actually fixing things.

So, thank you all, I at least appreciate all your work.

Some people should have a little lie down.
Thank you very much.. Yes you are correct in your assessment. Mozilla has many paid developers and hundreds of volunteers to do the things they do Not to mention their vast monetary resources. and they have largely failed us..

We have two developers (unpaid) and a handful of volunteers (besides the many who help with support not gonna forget you ;)) who are working day and night to satisfy the requirements of our users. We are building the future where we can offer the same (if not better) types of systems and facilities that mozilla has with just a handful of people and a few servers and are holding our own. Keep that in mind as well. It will take some time but in the end I think the future of the Pale Moon Project will be fantastic.

When we have most of the most used add-ons resolved either by psuedo-static or by getting the developers to actually support us directly.. We will be making efforts to bring back some of those older add-ons especially the complete proper themes. Firefox with personas has really killed the concept of themeing and we want to bring that back to the forefront of your Pale Moon experience. As well as some of those abandoned add-ons..
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Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Post by nana2 » 2014-10-15, 19:45

Great post sIDcORK, I wholeheartedly agree. :clap: :clap:

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