FF/PM colour management

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asmian

FF/PM colour management

Unread post by asmian » 2014-08-17, 01:53

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Last edited by asmian on 2014-10-04, 20:26, edited 1 time in total.

buggy

Re: FF/PM colour management

Unread post by buggy » 2014-08-17, 04:42

For Windows:
Install this add-on and check "all images": https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefo ... anagement/
Or in about:config "gfx.color_management.mode" = 1

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Re: FF/PM colour management

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2014-08-17, 04:48

Pale Moon Commander also offers options relating to color profiles.
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Re: FF/PM colour management

Unread post by Moonchild » 2014-08-17, 10:45

By default, Pale Moon uses ICC v2 and v4 profiles when present in images.
The default setting for color conversion is "perceptial", if required.

Pale Moon Commander gives you control over all aspects of Pale Moon's color management, so you can set it the way you need.
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Re: FF/PM colour management

Unread post by asmian » 2014-08-17, 11:32

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Re: FF/PM colour management

Unread post by Moonchild » 2014-08-17, 11:52

The whole point of using ICC profiles and adjusting color based on it is to correct the color display for calibrated screens. So yes, Pale Moon will use available ICC profiles and convert color information as-needed for your particular screen, provided you have calibrated it properly in your OS.
If "perceptual" is causing issues because of your calibration, you likely want to set the color mode to "embedded color", instead.

Color management is handled by the browser core. You don't need an add-on for it, but the add-ons indicated provide an easy interface to make relevant configuration changes.
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Re: FF/PM colour management

Unread post by asmian » 2014-08-17, 12:37

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Re: FF/PM colour management

Unread post by Moonchild » 2014-08-17, 12:47

No, ICC is enabled only for tagged images. gfx.color_management.mode = 2. That is the correct setting for Pale Moon. You don't want to apply ICC color conversion to images that don't have ICC information in them by default. (Unless your monitor is really whacky - i.e.: broken - and can't display RGB properly (in which case you should buy a new monitor)).
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Re: FF/PM colour management

Unread post by asmian » 2014-08-18, 00:34

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Re: FF/PM colour management

Unread post by Moonchild » 2014-08-18, 01:12

Consider one thing: images without a color profile are considered sRGB. So is your desktop. If you calibrate your monitor, you have the OS do all the color mapping and conversion required for sRGB images. If the OS didn't, none of your desktop backgrounds, icons or other graphics on your screen would look right.
You do not want the browser to do another round of that on top of what is already being done in the OS. It's futile, a waste of CPU, and degrades image quality because of dithering involved in unnecessary color conversion passes. A properly calibrated system will show no visual difference between "tagged only" and "all images" as a setting. Mine included. My setting is at "tagged only" and gballard's page (which I was already familiar with) shows absolutely 0 difference between tagged and untagged images, as-stated to be the case for proper color correction.

But, you can set your color management mode to apply to all images if you want, and be happy. It's not like any of this is enforced. You can be glad that Pale Moon has support for ICC profiles to begin with, considering it's a web browser and not a graphics editing program or studio software.

Also, you should tone down your posts and be just a little less aggressive in trying to get your points across. Just because you're convinced of your opinion doesn't make it "the truth" and a reason to talk down on others or telling them they've been drinking Kool-Aid. I could say the same and say you've been drinking gballard's Kool-Aid by taking their word for it.
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buggy

Re: FF/PM colour management

Unread post by buggy » 2014-08-18, 07:55

I agree totally with Moonchild, for many reasons a browser using 1 as default would be a nonsense. It take hours to calibrate a monitor properly, you can take 15 seconds to change settings in PM, which with PMC give better choice than FF! About graphics the web can not be considered as a professional tool so far, why a browser should be better??? in my opinion you should keep your resentment for monitors' constructors that are incapable to calibrate them.

imryno

Re: FF/PM colour management

Unread post by imryno » 2014-08-19, 22:16

Moonchild wrote:Consider one thing: images without a color profile are considered sRGB. So is your desktop. If you calibrate your monitor, you have the OS do all the color mapping and conversion required for sRGB images. If the OS didn't, none of your desktop backgrounds, icons or other graphics on your screen would look right.
This is not true on Windows. I have a wide gamut monitor (slightly larger than AdobeRGB) and all non colour managed applications display over-saturated. Thankfully almost all the applications where I consider colour important are colour managed.

For anyone with a proper display profile installed gfx.color_management.mode 1 makes more sense. (By proper I mostly mean that it contains the correct primaries for the display. Manufacturer supplied profiles and sensor read profiles generally fall into this category. Profiles made with Windows Display Color Calibration, older versions of QuickGamma and most similar software-only solutions will have sRGB primaries) For everyone else mode 2 makes sense to avoid the extra overhead for little or no gain. My only real complaint is that Mozilla should make it a more accessible option (put it in the main settings dialog and call the 3 modes Off, Quick and Full.)

For the record, OS-X does correct non colour managed software. Linux usually does not but AFAIK it can be done with the right compositing window manager. Windows was originally meant to get full desktop colour management in Windows 7 but it still hasn't arrived in 8.1.

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Re: FF/PM colour management

Unread post by Moonchild » 2014-08-23, 23:36

That's strange, because I calibrated color in Windows 7 for my IPS monitor and it affects all applications.

Bottom line, regardless: 2 is a sane default for (the vast majority of) Pale Moon users (and Firefox users as well). Keep in mind that it's a web browser, first and foremost, not a graphics application, and most use of it will involve graphics where accurate color is not essential. Almost no users (percentile-wise) of Pale Moon will be using anything but a standard gamut monitor and/or don't care about studio-accurate color reproduction. The overhead for color correcting all graphics in all pages is significant and too much of a performance hit - and untagged images are obviously not important enough to be considered color-corrected by the webmasters who put them up; does it matter to the average user if e.g. the Amazon logo is exactly the correct color? Hell no :) Would people notice if all insignificant images on pages (regularly in the hundreds) are represented in the correct color or not? Nope, but they would notice the performance hit as a result.

As for easy (UI) access to these settings, Pale Moon Commander is your answer. It has a dedicated tab under Graphics (CMS) where these settings can easily be changed. Because of the way the CMS is used in the browser, a restart of the browser is required for changes to take full effect.
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Re: FF/PM colour management

Unread post by imryno » 2014-08-25, 13:05

Moonchild wrote:That's strange, because I calibrated color in Windows 7 for my IPS monitor and it affects all applications.
I believe you're confusing calibration with profiling. Calibration sets a LUT in the graphics card/drivers which corrects the tone response of the 3 colour channels. Basically it allows you to adjust the white balance, gamma, and bring the greys into line, but cannot properly correct saturated colours. This LUT applies to all applications, and if your monitor primaries match sRGB primaries then it is all that is needed to correctly display sRGB content.
Profiling on the other hand measures the monitor and creates an ICC profile that describes all the colours that the monitor can reproduce. Colour managed applications use this to transform the colour values from the source profile to the monitor profile. But non colour-managed applications only get the half correction that the LUT provides.
Moonchild wrote:Bottom line, regardless: 2 is a sane default for (the vast majority of) Pale Moon users (and Firefox users as well). Keep in mind that it's a web browser, first and foremost, not a graphics application, and most use of it will involve graphics where accurate color is not essential. Almost no users (percentile-wise) of Pale Moon will be using anything but a standard gamut monitor and/or don't care about studio-accurate color reproduction. The overhead for color correcting all graphics in all pages is significant and too much of a performance hit - and untagged images are obviously not important enough to be considered color-corrected by the webmasters who put them up; does it matter to the average user if e.g. the Amazon logo is exactly the correct color? Hell no :) Would people notice if all insignificant images on pages (regularly in the hundreds) are represented in the correct color or not? Nope, but they would notice the performance hit as a result.
I agree 2 is a sane default. I also think 1 is an equally reasonable default. I don't particularly care about studio accurate colours on the web, but it is nice not to have peoples faces bright orange. From what I have read the performance impact is about 4% which is significant in some contexts, but not really noticeable.
Moonchild wrote:As for easy (UI) access to these settings, Pale Moon Commander is your answer. It has a dedicated tab under Graphics (CMS) where these settings can easily be changed. Because of the way the CMS is used in the browser, a restart of the browser is required for changes to take full effect.
Thanks for the heads up. I had already changed the setting, but that extension looks useful for other stuff.

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Re: FF/PM colour management

Unread post by Moonchild » 2014-08-25, 19:22

I certainly wouldn't accept a monitor out of the box if base saturated color channels are wrong. If it's an RGB monitor then it'd better display RGB properly or I'd return the hardware.

Most of the problems with monitors seem to stem from bad factory settings of hardware controls, causing over-saturation and forced contrast (a good marketing exercise for a brightly-lit shop, but useless for actual color work). Setting hardware controls to sane values (usually means yanking the contrast setting down by quite a bit, for starters) so the primary channels are displayed properly and without stepping in the gradients, and then calibrating in software should be all that is needed for proper display of colors.

I really don't think 1 is a reasonable default because of the massive impact it would have on performance. It's much more than 4% (compared to what, anyway?), and if anything, untagged images tend to be displayed with less vibrant colors, not over-saturated. I'm quite sure I would have heard about it if people would see terrible colors in all photos on facebook and what not ;)
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Re: FF/PM colour management

Unread post by imryno » 2014-08-25, 23:22

The base saturated colours are not wrong, they just aren't sRGB. They match closely to the manufacturer supplied profile, so it is as designed. I do design work, and accurate colours are importantfor me. There is simply no way to display colours outside the sRGB gamut without more saturated primaries.

Very few monitors have primaries that match sRGB. Until recently, most LCDs were undersaturated. Laptops usually still are. No CRT matches sRGB either. It's just that our vision tends to be better at ignoring under-saturation than over-saturation. If on your screen untagged images are displaying less vibrant colours then that would point to your monitor being under-saturated too (assuming your profile is correct).

Hardware controls do nothing to change the primaries. It a product of the colour filters used in the panel and the backlight.

The 4% figure comes from http://bholley.wordpress.com/2008/09/12/so-many-colors/. If http://muizelaar.blogspot.com.au/2009/06/qcms-color-management-for-web.html and http://muizelaar.blogspot.com.au/2009/10/qcms-now-faster.html are to be believed then it is even faster now, although I concede that regressions may also have occured. Either way, I don't notice any slowness with it on.

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Re: FF/PM colour management

Unread post by asmian » 2014-10-03, 15:09

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Re: FF/PM colour management

Unread post by Moonchild » 2014-10-03, 17:25

It has nothing to do with patents. It has nothing to do with an attitude. It has everything to do with a balanced setting being preferable.
If you have issues with color because you have a specific monitor profile that needs to be used, you can even manually enter it in Pale Moon if needed. I will not, however, make the default setting something that by far and wide does not apply to the vast majority of the user base when such a setting reduces performance. Only a very small percentage of users has a monitor where this is an issue, which is the only time when this point of contention would even apply. The people that do have such a monitor, can change this setting to the more CPU-expensive "always convert even if there is no ICC profile" to change image colors. Even if that setting is used, you will still not have page/text colors adjusted accordingly, so to make the entire browser be color-adjusted, you will need to have a third-party piece of software to "fix" your desktop applications anyway.
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