Similarly privacy-focused Pale Moon alternatives?

[suzyne]

I can concede that I am clearly going against the tide with my views about the look of Pale Moon. Perhaps I have more of a designer's mindset and see what nobody else does, but for me, the idea that the "look" of Pale Moon isn't out of step with expectations of current software conventions I find funny. (And no, I am not referring to mobile first, or any related "dumbing down" design trends.)

I appreciate that for many looking retro is a badge of honour, and honestly, I don't wish to bash Pale Moon. As a browser, it is what it is, and that's okay.

[frostknight]

Frankly, I highly dislike the modern trend of smartphone-first vertical and minimalist design.
Endless scrolling (and loading content).
Menu's and links hidden in drop-down or hamburger things.
Forced and wasted space on the sides of the site.
Content becoming Overlays that can't be New-Tabbed.
Overly large and oddly-aligned images or content.
Requirement of blink-specific "feature" or bloated javascript usage.

I hate all of the above too. Except, I never considered that a minimalist design, I just consider it crap.

[UCyborg]

Pale Moon's interface is like Windows XP style start menu to me - if it's not broken, don't fix it.

OP may be looking for GNU IceCat.

[BloxDeGroteUnsklled]

Exactly. What is wrong with the UI of Pale Moon? I actually love the brushed metal at the top and bottom of the screen. It's the modern UIs that are really getting worse. Look at how Chrome switched from a parallelogram to a regular + for its "New Tab" button, for example. That's a step backwards.

[suzyne]

Exactly. What is wrong with the UI of Pale Moon?

If your criteria is only "does it work", then I suppose Pale Moon is fine! But the OP was about that without a more modern UI, first impressions aren't great.

Here are a few select observations about aspects of the default browser look that offend my sense of design.

• What's with the quirky two-tone, two column drop down main menu?

• Why is the Edit label in ugly italics?

• The icons for Cut, Copy and Paste are inconsistent.

• The feed icon for the toolbar is different from the icon appears in the URL region for a site.

• Some icons have the glossy highlight at the top, others don't. Some are colour, some are monochrome.

• On Windows with the screen set to a default 100% native scaling, most icons on the toolbar have a fuzzy jpg style halo.

Please note, I am not inviting comments like, if you don't like it, why don't you help fix it? I don't use the default theme and am pleased with how Pale Moon looks! And more crucially, I don't have the time or skills.

But I do know what is a good visual design looks like, and sadly the default look of Pale Moon struggles in that area because of a lack of consistency and quirkiness that is unique.

2025-08-20_05-25-42.png

Clipboard_08-20-2025_01.png

[Michaell]

What's with the quirky two-tone, two column drop down main menu?

It's from Firefox back around the time Windows also had a dual pane start menu. There was an extension that gave a simple vertical version of the standard horizontal menu but it quit working. There's another one that gives the hamburger menu too if that's your thing.

Why is the Edit label in ugly italics?

Just be glad you still have it. Firefox butchered the menu even more later, leaving out important options. There is an extension to add Tools and View back to the 2 panel Application button menu.

I'm more interested in function than beauty (in software at least) so I'll leave the rest to aesthetically inclined folks. But I will say PM can be customized to suit whatever weird look people dream up - users don't have to stay with the default look.

[RealityRipple]

Personally I like the menu bar, and always turn it on first thing after installing or creating new profiles. Having the bookmarks toolbar up there too keeps the total height about the same.

[moonbat]

Addressing a few points. Also ensure you're testing with the default theme and not a different one that may have differences in icons -

Why is the Edit label in ugly italics?

To show that it is disabled, because the clipboard is empty.

The icons for Cut, Copy and Paste are inconsistent.

Inconsistent how? They are proper 3D image representations of scissors/clipboard etc, not some lame stylized line symbol that makes them all indistinguishable from one another as is the 'modern' fashion.

On Windows with the screen set to a default 100% native scaling, most icons on the toolbar have a fuzzy jpg style halo.

Could be due to resolution limitations of the icons and/or graphics issues.

[Michaell]

To show that it is disabled, because the clipboard is empty.

Stays gray for me even with text on clipboard. I think it's really just that the word edit is not clickable but the icons are. (I like that aspect of it.) Someone made a design decision to have it italicized, I suppose to further set it apart as not clickable.

Inconsistent how?

IMO, the scissors look different, hard to distinguish (pointing down and not open much). For comparison,
Open Office

CUTCOPYPASTE.jpg

Irfanview

CUTCOPYPASTE2.jpg

[suzyne]

It's from Firefox back around the time Windows also had a dual pane start menu.

That's interesting, but I am not sure if it is a good design decision to hang onto in the 2020s?

Just be glad you still have it.

Being thankful that it exists at all is not a valid justification for why it looks that way.

Also ensure you're testing with the default theme and not a different one that may have differences in icons

Yes, I did a fresh profile with the default theme to get the first impressions because that's what everybody sees after an install.

To show that it is disabled, because the clipboard is empty.

Like what Michaell found, select some text on a page and press Ctrl+C, does the Edit label stay italic because it does for me. Besides, since when has italic been a visual cue for disabled or enabled? And why is Edit greyed out and italic?  No other menu items that open another menu are greyed out.

Ignoring that it is ugly, it makes little sense, and is there any other program that uses an italic font in regular menus?

The icons for Cut, Copy and Paste are inconsistent.

Inconsistent how?

To emphasize, this is the default theme, and check out the Cut, Copy and Paste in the menu vs the toolbar below. They are different.

Could be due to resolution limitations of the icons and/or graphics issues.

Maybe, but the icons in the main menu are crisp, while the ones in the toolbar aren't sharp and instead appear a little fuzzy? Icons on a toolbar are one of the first things to notice, and no other program (browser or not) on my screen look smudged.

Personally I like the menu bar, and always turn it on first thing after installing or creating new profiles. Having the bookmarks toolbar up there too keeps the total height about the same.

Good suggestion!

Clipboard_08-20-2025_01.png

[RealityRipple]

Personally I like the menu bar, and always turn it on first thing after installing or creating new profiles. Having the bookmarks toolbar up there too keeps the total height about the same.

Good suggestion!

I kinda meant more like this:

[suzyne]

I kinda meant more like this:

I thought I knew what you meant, but when I tried to do it I can't see how to have the bookmarks on the same row as the menu.

Can you please tell me what I am missing?

Clipboard_08-20-2025_01.png

[moonbat]

While the 'customize toolbar' dialog is open, click any part of the bookmarks toolbar and drag it to the top.

[suzyne]

While the 'customize toolbar' dialog is open, click any part of the bookmarks toolbar and drag it to the top.

Thank you!

[Moonchild]

"Edit" is italic and grey because it's not an active menu item (you can't click it as it doesn't do anything, itself). This was chosen as a compromise to have the active buttons right next to it and "Edit" merely being a label (and the styling results from the lack of active function, consistent with how it's used everywhere else). It doesn't really have anything to do with there being something on the clipboard or not, AFAIK.

The AppMenu icons are partially taken from system/toolkit theming, and partially not (cut/copy/paste isn't, for example, and are part of the Pale Moon theme - they may look different on other operating systems). I never thought the cut/copy/paste icons were particularly unclear so I never thought of them being an issue (and until now I've not seen any feedback about them), but I can have a look at maybe changing them out to something with a bit more expectance for 2025.

The "fuzzy" edge for the toolbar icons is on purpose. This is a compromise because the icons need to keep proper contrast even with custom toolbar background (lightweight themes) so they have a subtle alpha shadow around them (a "corona" if you will). The only real way to not have this would be to have a contrasting solid outline which is just not fitting with the overall aesthetic of the theme. At higher DPI you may notice this less because the toolbar will switch to SVG representation (from the PNG ones they are at lower DPI). SVG at lower DPI with very small objects like toolbar icons doesn't work (it'll be a lot more blurry overall, not just a rim).

The two-pane, two-tone AppMenu is a style common to the latest non-"modern" version of Windows. The two-pane nature is essential to keep the menu compact on the screen while still offering enough space for all the desired elements. The two-tone is there to clearly distinguish the panes from each other. I don't really have any better ideas for that at the moment. What do you find particularly offensive to your design spirit with it? Keep in mind we have to maintain a balance between design and function here. It's a piece of software.

[Michaell]

While you and Suzyne debate icons and colors, to me the bigger issue is function. The App button menu was never as well organized as the menu bar. Some headings in the horizontal menu (File, Edit, View, Help) are standard across Windows applications (that used to be a concern to get the Windows logo certification (or whatever they called it). The double pane variation destroyed that (just like MS's helter-skelter organization in the ribbon toolbar in Office applications). Firefox even removed the View and Tools menus to try to simplify (i.e., dumb down) things for the non-technical users, but that caused a big loss of function. I don't normally use or see the app button menu anymore because I keep the menu bar visible and have the search box beside it. So if you mess up the app menu it won't hurt my use, but my suggestion is focus on use first and keep making it pretty as secondary.

[Moonchild]

If you don't like the AppMenu, and prefer the standard menubar, just configure your browser that way. The whole point is you have options. Your preference won't be someone else's.

[moonbat]

The whole point is you have options. Your preference won't be someone else's.

It's sad how over the years of dumbing down and removing choices from everything, people have gotten trained to think they're stuck with the default settings here in Pale Moon. 'Your browser, your way' isn't just a slogan after all.

[frostknight]

It's sad how over the years of dumbing down and removing choices from everything, people have gotten trained to think they're stuck with the default settings here in Pale Moon. 'Your browser, your way' isn't just a slogan after all.

Some have a word for the whole dumbing it down for the user idea:

for me that is this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enshittification

My definition for this is different then theirs though.

For me just the idea of dumbing things down making it user friendly at the cost of customization is enough to call this.

[RJARPCGP]

Endless scrolling (and loading content).

This has been bothering me the most, very recently!
In some contexts, my brain will actually throw a security-violation flag, because I can't tell what's next to come up when scrolling.

I hate form-over-function! It's as simple as that.