Thanks for restoring Flash! (and some Linux banter)

[Moonchild]

Off-topic:

Problem is, proprietary code gets fixed slower in my experience.

Quite the contrary.
Proprietary: Find a bug -> report -> some time passes -> fixed
FOSS: Find a bug -> report -> get redirected to a dependency -> report -> wait -> no response -> go back to responsive project -> find out the dep is not maintained -> have to fix it yourself. (or any exponentially longer result)

[RJARPCGP]

I am not a FOSS zealot, but really think that archives and preservation of creativity and knowledge content and information is super important and very valuable.

So getting back to Flash, the current situation great content produced not much more than a decade ago

Well, there were cool projects that I saw done on Flash. I'm not a zealot of that type, either, as I support what Beam NG and what Automation (Camshaft Software) are doing.

[frostknight]

Quite the contrary.
Proprietary: Find a bug -> report -> some time passes -> fixed
FOSS: Find a bug -> report -> get redirected to a dependency -> report -> wait -> no response -> go back to responsive project -> find out the dep is not maintained -> have to fix it yourself. (or any exponentially longer result)

Off-topic:
Well to be fair, it depends on how many eyes are looking at the project too and the complexity of said project as well.

If its like systemd, all the eyes in the world cannot make that trash heap any better.

If its like openrc, 10 eyes is more than sufficient probably.

Otherwise libre software wouldn't be so damn popular if it didn't have the potential to be so secure.

Windows would still be on most servers otherwise.

[UCyborg]

Off-topic:

libre software, {...} means you can see most of it for what it is and audit it easier.

Not in practice. The big and increasing issue is that this doesn't work: sure, you can audit a piece of FOSS.

Off-topic:
I never looked at the Pale Moon's source code deeply. Or source code of pretty much anything I use. So code being open is moot for 99,99% of users. Ex-coworker (a developer) at the place I work at told me I know the software (developed in-house) better than he does. And he writes code while I deal with customers. It's a small company with only a handful of developers.

Another developer there told me you can make malicious code look innocent.

[frostknight]

I never looked at the Pale Moon's source code deeply. Or source code of pretty much anything I use. So code being open is moot for 99,99% of users. Ex-coworker (a developer) at the place I work at told me I know the software (developed in-house) better than he does. And he writes code while I deal with customers. It's a small company with only a handful of developers.

Another developer there told me you can make malicious code look innocent.

Still, open source, libre software, w/e you want to call it, is popular on servers and in general.

I have to figure there is a reason for that. Not just less privacy issues, but I think the other reason is how BSD and GNU work, they have better layers of security and they use less resources, etc... I just wonder what the specific reasons are servers use the libre software over proprietary. That's all. I am sure security and privacy are two things though.

[suzyne]

Still, open source, libre software, w/e you want to call it, is popular on servers and in general.

I have to figure there is a reason for that.

Is it too simple to say that it is mostly about cost?

When I look at the prices for web hosting, servers based on Linux are always significantly cheaper than Windows.

Unless there are special requirements, when free or open source programs give the same end result, doesn't everyone want to save money for other things that can't be gotten for free?

[frostknight]

Is it too simple to say that it is mostly about cost?

When I look at the prices for web hosting, servers based on Linux are always significantly cheaper than Windows.

Possibly the main reason. I thought there might be other reasons though.

Although I am not sure if there are other reasons are besides privacy/security.

[UCyborg]

To me as a final user, what's popular on servers isn't relevant much. They're boring and don't render graphics and media. Due to the nature of software I support for the living, I only see Windows servers though.

I use mix of proprietary and FOSS, depends. But from what I've seen so far, it doesn't look like I'll switch from proprietary to FOSS to keep my computer operational any time soon.

Regarding NPAPI, Flash sees only occasional use, I don't even get around to all the real games I have, but often use NPAPI plugin for PDF viewing. Why settle for PDF.js when you have a pro PDF application?

[frostknight]

To me as a final user, what's popular on servers isn't relevant much. They're boring and don't render graphics and media. Due to the nature of software I support for the living, I only see Windows servers though.

If you like modern graphics and media, then sure I guess you got a point there. I think "modern" in terms of graphics and media looks like trash personally... so I can't say I understand you there. Meaning, why you would want that.

I use mix of proprietary and FOSS, depends. But from what I've seen so far, it doesn't look like I'll switch from proprietary to FOSS to keep my computer operational any time soon.

Hmmm.... well I don't really know what your reasons are precisely, but i am curious what they exactly are.

Regarding NPAPI, Flash sees only occasional use, I don't even get around to all the real games I have, but often use NPAPI plugin for PDF viewing. Why settle for PDF.js when you have a pro PDF application?

Good question, can't say I know what your answer is there.

Btw, flash could become better than html5, if it were designed with an open standard type approach like html5. The problem I see is that flash is proprietary and even more so, its probably bloated like a pig.

Although so is javascript... so meh...

[suzyne]

Off-topic:
For too many years, I kept a church website up-to-date with the latest news and the sermon of the week. It was only HTML and I used a program called WebPlus to create the files from my custom design, which I then uploaded to the server.

The church was paying for the hosting, and so I got the cheapest plan at the time for Linux hosting at a local (i.e. Australian) company. It was one of those basic plans on a shared server. Anything extra, including Windows hosting, would have been an unnecessary waste of their money.

[frostknight]

Off-topic:
The church was paying for the hosting, and so I got the cheapest plan at the time for Linux hosting at a local (i.e. Australian) company. It was one of those basic plans on a shared server. Anything extra, including Windows hosting, would have been an unnecessary waste of their money.

Off-topic:
Well it sounds like that is another benefit for sure

[UCyborg]

Off-topic:
I never had my graphics cards working properly on Linux. fglrx was the most atrocious driver I ever dealt with, installing it alone was a nightmare, required jumping through hoops like downgrading Xorg. And even then it was the lottery with which applications (games) it worked well. Open-source driver on the other hand cut performance of pretty much everything in half. I was using Radeon HD 4890 at the time, which was the ATI's top single-core GPU of 2009.

Shifting to NVIDIA just moved problems elsewhere. Last time I messed with Linux, I didn't have hardware decoding of H.264 videos working in a single web browser. The only desktop environment I found with feature set suitable for my usage, KDE, its compositor's performance was abysmal with NVIDIA. Had to look for another. Of course it didn't go without messing with config files. I forgot what it's called, but still preferred Windows' DWM at the end of day.

Forget open source nouveau driver, it's a useless joke. I've been keeping an eye on Linux for at least 15 years, and, honestly, my interest in desktop Linux is at the lowest at this point.

When it comes to web browsers alone, only Chromium based browsers run WebGL content as they should on Linux. And even then there are cases where you get performance boost on Windows due to translating OpenGL to Direct3D 11. I never saw smooth CSS animations on Linux version of Pale Moon either.

I could go on, but what's the point? I generally dislike the way things work / are done on Linux (and other Unices). I prefer System Informer, ClearType font rendering, Explorer with QTTabBar, the way mouse feels etc. etc. etc.

[frostknight]

Shifting to NVIDIA just moved problems elsewhere. Last time I messed with Linux, I didn't have hardware decoding of H.264 videos working in a single web browser. The only desktop environment I found with feature set suitable for my usage, KDE, its compositor's performance was abysmal with NVIDIA. Had to look for another. Of course it didn't go without messing with config files. I forgot what it's called, but still preferred Windows' DWM at the end of day.

Off-topic:
Yeah, I don't tend to use proprietary blobs for a lot of stuff. IF you need proprietary blobs, things could get ugly I suppose... especially with NVIDIA. You raise a good point there. I don't know much about how Nouveau works so I cannot comment here.

I could go on, but what's the point? I generally dislike the way things work / are done on Linux (and other Unices). I prefer System Informer, ClearType font rendering, Explorer with QTTabBar, the way mouse feels etc. etc. etc.

Off-topic:
I still would be curious what you could go on and on about though regardless.

This being said, my experiences are probably better due to needing less blobs to run things.

AMD Ryzen's blob for GPU is decent though... but I cannot imagine every blob works the way it should. Open source stuff is well... more predictable for me.

In the long term it usually gets better. Blobs only get better if the tech companies behind it introduce new versions. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.

And open source updates come way quicker.

[UCyborg]

Off-topic:
I bought a Raspberry Pi 5 some time ago and one of the first things I had to research; if you powered off the screen, your session with all opened programs would be gone. So even Linux centered devices have problems you wouldn't expect to encounter in this decade.

Only few care about older hardware and my impression of Linux is that things get obsoleted even faster than on Windows. They say it's not hard to keep older Linux going, but it's not exactly clear to me how dependencies work. On Windows, it seems more straightforward, with C++ runtimes and .NET versions. Package management also strikes me as something complicating matters. I shun any kind of auto-updates.

Regarding graphics drivers, there usually isn't anything in newer graphics driver versions for old cards, especially if you don't play new games, but driver package keeps getting bigger and bigger.

I don't know where I'm going with this, I just feel profoundly disconnected from the whole IT field. I'm in it because I'm forced to be, it pays the bills and I didn't find anything better. The whole thing strikes me as developers just being desperate to justify their existence.

At least where I work, the sole reason for updates seems to be pointless bureaucracy the software deals with and incompetency, because nothing ever works correctly and has to be fixed all the time and breaking something else in the process.

Hardware upgrade cycles have gotten longer, computer is no longer obsolete the moment you open the box, as was the case in the 90s. Around 2010 is the time when new hardware stopped being interesting IMO. And the only reason for upgrading to keep basic tasks working might be to feed insatiable Chromium beast, which these days has to be slapped onto everything. That or other inefficiencies due to devs not caring since they get new computer every few years.

What does this have to do with Linux? It was often preached as go-to solution for older computers. Which I don't really understand with how poor behaving graphical stack seems to be, having effect on both games and plain GUI programs.

[Mæstro]

Off-topic:

Only few care about older hardware and my impression of Linux is that things get obsoleted even faster than on Windows. They say it's not hard to keep older Linux going, but it's not exactly clear to me how dependencies work. On Windows, it seems more straightforward, with C++ runtimes and .NET versions. Package management also strikes me as something complicating matters. I shun any kind of auto-updates.

Debian and Ubuntu versions each enjoy a decade of security updates, or as long as most Windows versions. Repositories for a given version maintain compatible software however long they persist. I despise automatic updates also; this was indeed one reason I chose to migrate to Linux instead of Windows 10. I have configured my computer to check for updates daily, but only to download them if I approve; one may freely ignore updates without nagging or designate certain packages as not to be updated. Dependencies work like any ordinary application software or NET library listed in Windows’ My Programmes; if foo is bar’s dependency, foo must be installed if bar is.

What does this have to do with Linux? It was often preached as go-to solution for older computers. Which I don't really understand with how poor behaving graphical stack seems to be, having effect on both games and plain GUI programs.

As somebody running Linux on an older computer, I can speak from experience. For some computers, graphics cards and the rest behave normally; the lottery of manufacture installation choice decides whether everything works smoothly or the wireless adapter fails. Older Windows machines often suffer Windows rot, and installing another OS cures it as well as reinstalling the original. If a user is unwilling or unable (for hardware requirements) to install a newer Windows version when his current one loses Microsoft’s support, as happened to me with Windows 7 in 2020, installing a current, compatible Linux version is the most accessible choice if we also refuse the perils of continuing to run an unsupported OS.

[UCyborg]

Off-topic:
There are dependencies that aren't immediately obvious. Someone posted arm64 binaries of Epyrus here and they didn't run on Raspberry Pi OS at the time time I tried because of GLIBC.

I usually "update" Windows by switching to entire new version. Windows updates have been a pain since forever and Windows 10 performs notably worse on HDDs. Not as bad if you don't run updates (Configure Automatic Updates policy is still alive), login takes a while longer. I can run up-to Win11 23H2 on this computer. While Win11 is kinda underwhelming to say at least, there's not much difference when it comes to running programs compared to Windows 7. Since this computer was also meant to handle games, that helps with longevity.

I personally don't concern myself too much whether OS is supported or not, I'd only start worrying once I get missing API errors. Though Windows 7 is no longer as practical as it used to be due applications' increasing dependence on Windows 10+.

[Mæstro]

Off-topic:

There are dependencies that aren't immediately obvious. Someone posted arm64 binaries of Epyrus here and they didn't run on Raspberry Pi OS at the time time I tried because of GLIBC.

Fair enough, it is easy to imagine this happening if downloading software (like Epyrus) off the internet, as one would do on Windows, and not from the repository. The only software I use not sourced from my repository are Pale Moon itself, my VPN, Ungoogled Chromium and a few visual novels and a German–Esperanto dictionary running in Wine.

I usually "update" Windows by switching to entire new version. Windows updates have been a pain since forever…I personally don't concern myself too much whether OS is supported or not,

And I broke Windows Updater in 2015 to prevent nagging about upgrading to Windows 10.

I'd only start worrying once I get missing API errors. Though Windows 7 is no longer as practical as it used to be due applications' increasing dependence on Windows 10+.

Although I justify it now by removing the need to worry about security into the end-of-life era (and saving me a Malwarebytes subscription’s annual cost), my actual reason for having switched to Linux had been a (now ex-)friend’s urging me. If not for him, I would most likely still be using Windows 7; I have kept an installation disc for it in any case, but have not had any reason to bother switching back. When I look over the software I actually use, I can say that I could revert to Windows XP (if I use New Moon) or perhaps even Windows 2000 if I really wanted. In matters like this, I leave well enough alone.

[frostknight]

I bought a Raspberry Pi 5 some time ago and one of the first things I had to research; if you powered off the screen, your session with all opened programs would be gone. So even Linux centered devices have problems you wouldn't expect to encounter in this decade.

Off-topic:
I will stop right here to just say, ARM support is not as good as x86 support is in Linux.

Linux handles x86 way better. Even with blobs needed.

In my experience anyhow.

Btw the biggest pitfalls I see of linux are as follows:

compatibility for windows only software
nvidia graphics cards
some computers (most I have used have worked fine though. Then again, I am used to thinkpads and mostly modified laptops.
Getting used to how linux works in general and knowing what not to do/touch in root/sudo


Beyond a few of those, I have had no problems.
I never tried to use nvidia graphics cards in my stuff because graphics cards to me were a waste of battery life.

This being said, I have heard many complaints online about linux and nvidia so... yeah
I don't have much else to say for now though.

[Mæstro]

As the one who posted this thread just to say ‘thank you’, I declare that Linux banter is on topic.

I will stop right here to just say, ARM support is not as good as x86 support is in Linux.

Minding the existence of Chromebooks and Android, hearing this is rather ironic to my ear.

compatibility for windows only software

I have a friend chained to Windows by specialised graphics software (he is an artist) only available in Windows, which runs poorly in Wine. He knows about Krita and other choices, but finds them unfit for his specific purposes. Had Mac advocates felt this way twenty years ago?

nvidia graphics cards

I have not suffered this directly, but I have installed Linux on one computer, only to discover afterwards the wireless adapter was incompatible. A cousin needed to install Windows back on that computer to render it usable by its intended users.

Getting used to how linux works in general and knowing what not to do/touch in root/sudo

Is this really still a problem? There have been enough distros out there for years, as Piney and I know well, which are very much intended for laymen: competent users of Windows in the early 2010s who never needed to use Command Prompt, and now never need to go into the terminal. The curse of knowledge might be plaguing me today, but I think ‘do not execute random instructions online’ is sound advice for any operating system, and there is no reason to think Linux superusers are any more threatening than Windows administrators.

[Moonchild]

As the one who posted this thread just to say ‘thank you’, I declare that Linux banter is on topic.

Updated the topic to reflect

Is this really still a problem? There have been enough distros out there for years, as Piney and I know well, which are very much intended for laymen: competent users of Windows in the early 2010s who never needed to use Command Prompt, and now never need to go into the terminal.

But eventually, on Linux, you always do, sooner or later. Never needing the Command Prompt (or PowerShell in more recent time) is absolutely the case for most Windows users, but Linux still can't avoid it. Unless you are a user who literally only uses their computer for a few applications, never adventures outside of them and never wants to learn or is super-set into their workflow*, it's almost guaranteed you end up needing to use the terminal on Linux. Complicated by:

‘do not execute random instructions online’ is sound advice for any operating system

Because Linux (still) lacks discoverability, this is very often the only recourse someone has with a "how do I do X in Linux?". Web searches almost guarantee you end up "executing random instructions online" because it's usually the only obvious thing available to solve the problem in a reasonably short time.

* For those who fall into this category, the O.S. is completely irrelevant anyway. They would be just as happy on Windows, Linux, ChromeOS, Android, iOS or some proprietary embedded OS.