Forum post formatting...

[back2themoon]

So, thank you Moonchild for Pale Moon, the web browser "I use for 95+% of all my web needs".

I agree with this. However, I wanted to ask: what's with the persistent colouring in all your posts? It's a bit annoying to my migraine-sensitive eye(s). Don't take it personally, just curious.

[BenFenner]

what's with the persistent colouring in all your posts? It's a bit annoying

Not just a bit. Completely annoying and antagonistic. It goes against forum netiquette solidly established 30+ years ago.

[moonbat]

Then again, javascript was a half-assed idea for a programming language to use for the web... so there's that.

It was originally made to add a little interactivity to pages and perform client side form validation. Since then it's been tortured beyond belief to help turn the web browser from a remote document viewer into a virtual machine for apps. And then beyond the browser for server side programming thanks to node.js.

[tellu-white]

back2themoon wrote :
I wanted to ask: what's with the persistent colouring in all your posts?

BenFenner wrote :
Completely annoying and antagonistic. It goes against forum netiquette solidly established 30+ years ago.

tellu-white wrote :
I'm of an age where people are walking their grandchildren in the park ...

https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=28384#p228275

Having a certain age, my eyesight is not as good as it was "30+ years ago". So, what for some people is "completely annoying", for others (like me) "goes against" the visual acuity problems that come with aging.

By the way, emphasizing important notions is not so unusual in IT. All "integrated development environment" have "syntax highlighting".

Wikipedia :

Syntax highlighting

This feature is also employed in many programming related contexts (such as programming manuals), either in the form of colorful books or online websites to make understanding code snippets easier for readers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syntax_highlighting

Let's see a "snippet of C code" to decide how we prefer to read it: with or without syntax highlighting:

01.png

[Moonchild]

Syntax highlighting applies to visualizing structure in code. We aren't writing code to each other; this is natural languages, which is a whole different beast. In natrural languages, we have punctuation, spacing, etc. to make text more readable. It doesn't need colour to emphasize and (as I also pointed out in my PM to you) the very goal you seem to have to increase legibility for limited visual acuity actually achieves the opposite if it doesn't jive well with the theme in use (e.g. a dark theme).

But if you want to follow the syntax highlighting analogy?

Then this sentence should, actually, be higlighted in color like this to indicate linguistic structure of the sentence.

[back2themoon]

Having a certain age, my eyesight is not as good as it was "30+ years ago". So, what for some people is "completely annoying", for others (like me) "goes against" the visual acuity problems that come with aging.

By the way, emphasizing important notions is not so unusual in IT. All "integrated development environment" have "syntax highlighting".

I'm still a bit confused here. Eyesight issues aside, which are fully respected of course, is this to assist in reading your own messages, or about helping others by "emphasizing important notions"?

It does look like it's the latter in which case, I can assure you it has the opposite effect. Spaces should be enough. The occasional bold/italic/underlined text should be used sparingly. As for colour, I'd go for it about... once a year, for extremely rare and extraordinary occasions. Well, in my opinion anyway. Not dictating any rules here: just past experience and common sense, hopefully. There's a reason almost no one posts in such a colourful way.

If it's the former, then I still fail to understand the purpose, since:

a) Your posts are well-written, you know what you are talking about and anyway, not much point in going back to reviewing them after they've been posted, right?
b) You'd still have problems reading posts from every single member of the entire forum. Having only your own posts with extra colour is still like a drop in the ocean. An extension like NoSquint or similar could be a better option. It's one of my all-time favourites.

[tellu-white]

Moonchild wrote :
But if you want to follow the syntax highlighting analogy?
Then this sentence should, actually, be higlighted in color like this to indicate linguistic structure of the sentence.

grammar analysis.png

As you said yourself, in my post I made an analogy with "syntax highlighting", to emphasize an idea. An analogy does not result in a biunivocal relationship between the subjects of the analogy. No offense, my intention was not to do grammar analysis but to make it easier to spot the important notions.

Moonchild wrote :
In natrural languages, we have punctuation, spacing, etc. to make text more readable. It doesn't need colour to emphasize ... it doesn't jive well with the theme in use (e.g. a dark theme).

Punctuation and spacing do not produce useful results for those with limited visual acuity. They are useful to make the text more logically comprehensible, not visually. Also, for me, a dark theme is even more distracting, it doesn't help me, regardless of font color. So using colors on a light background doesn't "actually achieve the opposite" in terms of readability, it actually helps me.

So, as I said before, what for some people is "completely annoying", for others (like me) "goes against" the visual acuity problems that come with aging. This is not a dispute about ideas and "netiquette", it's about tolerance, about accepting differences between people.

[tellu-white]

@back2themoon

I don't understand the relevance of this conversation. As I said before, what for some people is "completely annoying", for others (like me) "goes against" the visual acuity problems that come with aging. This is not a dispute about ideas and "netiquette", it's about tolerance, about accepting differences between people. For example, the black font on a gray background, like the one in "Off-topic", bothers me quite a lot. However, I haven't started complaining about the fact that some forum users use the "Off-topic" option when posting.

When you have a visual acuity problem it becomes more difficult to quickly spot key words in a sentence. This is what I was referring to when I was talking about "emphasizing important notions".

What you don't understand ("I'm still a bit confused here") is that the first one to make value judgments about a post is the one who makes the post, so let's show some tolerance for the decisions of all users of this forum.

***

On-topic :

How Japanese Website Design Differs From The West

Just a Clash of Color

One other reason which makes Japanese web design different from the rest is its use of various colors. Color is an essential part of the country’s culture, take Kimonos as an example. Japanese websites often display a range of varying colors which include blue, red, pink, orange, and even yellow.

https://www.infocubic.co.jp/en/blog/website-design/how-japanese-website-design-differs-from-the-west/

[suzyne]

I continue to be fascinated by the direction that a thread can go on the Pale Moon forum. The perspectives that can be gained about how some (usually the most mature) online users think is sometimes intriguing and always entertaining.

[andyprough]

So using colors on a light background doesn't "actually achieve the opposite" in terms of readability, it actually helps me.

It does look good and readable with @tellu-white's colors on a light theme:

2025-01-07_22-39.jpg

Maybe the forum font colors need adjustment. They probably shouldn't look as bad as they do in a dark theme:

2025-01-07_23-28.jpg

Or maybe @tellu-white needs to select more neutral colors that will look readable regardless of the background.

[back2themoon]

So, as I said before, what for some people is "completely annoying", for others (like me) "goes against" the visual acuity problems that come with aging. This is not a dispute about ideas and "netiquette", it's about tolerance, about accepting differences between people.

Ok, I really have no significant issue here so I won't insist. However, there are some objective facts that you seem to be ignoring, so I will insist on those:

1. As mentioned, this is not a "post your code" forum. So, that analogy is null. We are not using a specialised, programming-oriented text editor for our posts either.
2. Much respect for Japanese culture but it's not a Japanese forum. Another null analogy. There is a foreign language section, though.
3. I dislike the offtopic colours, too. However, that is an exception in forum posts and not used often. Your colouring is not the exception. So, another analogy that doesn't work.

I suspect, and correct me if I'm wrong, that a good portion of this is about personal style and preference. In this case, what I'm trying to say is that it is a wrong style to use and generally not accepted. Others can explain and word this better than me. And yes, it is annoying to read because it stands out too much, and makes your otherwise interesting posts prime candidates for an immediate skip. Obviously, it is not as annoying has having eyesight issues and I'm not making that analogy. Yes, we immediately recognise it is your post, but not for a positive reason. Content should be the reason, not form.

However, it still seems this is more about personal preference and style, than actually helping you (and you alone) to re-read your own posts. I'm all about tolerance, but if you insist that your coloured posts are more readable for me, I'm telling you it's the exact opposite. I can't speak for others, although it seems I'm not alone.

Having said all this, feel free to keep using the same style. I might not like it (at all), but I'm not the one to object in any way.

[Moonchild]

I continue to be fascinated by the direction that a thread can go on the Pale Moon forum. The perspectives that can be gained about how some (usually the most mature) online users think is sometimes intriguing and always entertaining.

Which is why sometimes, threads get split into multiple topics. Like here.

[BenFenner]

This is not a dispute about ideas and "netiquette", it's about tolerance, about accepting differences between people. For example, the black font on a gray background, like the one in "Off-topic", bothers me quite a lot.

You are missing a key detail here. When it comes down to personalizing text for visual acuity needs, that is the task of the browser and OS on the user's side with the visual impairment/need. There are many, many, many tools available to change font colors, font sizes, color contrast, and the like on your end to make the entire forum (and the entire web at large) more accessible to you. Those are the tools you should be reaching for, since they solve so much more of your problem (not just making your own posts more readable by you, but the entire web at large) and don't hinder other users with different needs/preferences.

Instead what you've done is dictated what others see from your posts (and your posts alone) without much respect for how that affects their ability to read it. It tramples on each individual user's ability to set custom/accessible colors for themselves since you are explicitly dictating colors that aren't easily overridden (whereas the default colors are easily overridden). Furthermore, you can never make your posts more readable to all using the extremely limited formatting provided by BBCode. What might work for one person may not work for another. BBCode is not equipped to deal with this. Not by a long shot. The best thing to do is to avoid any formatting designed for visual accessibility and leave that up to the users themselves to adjust.

You may not remember this, but that same exact argument you are making was made to justify and encourage typing in ALL CAPS ALL THE TIME FOR EVERYTHING ALWAYS. It was more readable (so goes the argument) by those with visual impairments. Again, some 30 years ago that was mercifully beaten out of users and is mostly a fading memory.

Off-topic:
Of course web site theme designers have their own impetuous to create visually accessible designs. One could easily argue the off topic theming is problematic there. But the solution is not users posting wildly flagrant and effectively meaningless color combinations.

[Kris_88]

The obsessive attention-grabbing to ordinary, regular phrases creates an unpleasant impression. As if I am being poked in the nose with some phrases, forced to pay special attention, as if I am not capable of properly managing my attention on my own.
And, by the way, on many forums the color red is reserved for moderators' official remarks.
And, yes, this is precisely about network etiquette, not about tolerance.

[therube]

Maybe a bookmarklet, zap colors will help?
Or I imagine it or something could be scripted with a grease-monkey-like extension or some CSS ?
Or ? maybe the board has an option already ?

[moonbat]

Maybe a bookmarklet, zap colors will help?
Or I imagine it or something could be scripted with a grease-monkey-like extension or some CSS ?
Or ? maybe the board has an option already ?

Technical solutions won't help for a total lack of etiquette from someone old enough to have grandchildren but apparently not having spent enough of that age online to not impose their horrible color preferences on others
If he wanted a way to change colors as shown here he could just have asked, as have many other users here before who are over 70.

[Moonchild]

We do have a forum rule that should actually not have to be one, dealing with exactly this.
app.php/rules#rule-1e

For all the reasons mentioned above (including letting people with visual acuity issues decide themselves how they want to parse content on the forum) this should be taken to heart.
So only if you need to emphasize or clarify, and then preferably using normal formatting before using colour. I regularly use formatting to specifically lift out preference names and values because that is the most important part of replies there in almost all cases, for even those who rapidly scan a thread while scrolling to be able to pick it out, i.e. it has a very, very specific purpose when used. And moderator notes tend to be red, indeed.

If necessary, for people who don't follow this rule, I'm pretty sure the power to use formatting can be taken away from individual users to enforce it, but I'd rather not have to police this. Just use some sense going forward, please.

[BenFenner]

Technical solutions won't help for a total lack of etiquette from someone old enough to have grandchildren but apparently not having spent enough of that age online to not impose their horrible color preferences on others

Quoted for the people in the back. <3

We do have a forum rule that should actually not have to be one, dealing with exactly this.
app.php/rules#rule-1e

I knew it was there. It's there in nearly every mature forum ruleset as a given.
I was just too lazy to find it.

[RealityRipple]

Just letting everyone that used color in this topic know, not a single color you used looked legible with the dark-subsilver2 theme.

[Moonchild]

They are legible, but definitely reduced legibility.
Of course you can work around that with a background if you insist