What happens to Pale Moon when Firefox's Holly branch dies?

[Daikun]

Your suggested alternate being Microsoft VS2008... That's not an alternate program.
Besides, I'm not going back to 2008 or 2010. VS 2012 has too many advantages for building (which is why it was bought to begin with).

...You did scroll BELOW that part, right? That's where the alternate programs are listed.

[dark_moon]

Funny

Update on Metro (Firefox Metro didn't come)
In the months since, as the team built and tested and refined the product, we’ve been watching Metro’s adoption. From what we can see, it’s pretty flat. On any given day we have, for instance, millions of people testing pre-release versions of Firefox desktop, but we’ve never seen more than 1000 active daily users in the Metro environment.
https://blog.mozilla.org/futurereleases ... /14/metro/

[Moonchild]

Your suggested alternate being Microsoft VS2008... That's not an alternate program.
Besides, I'm not going back to 2008 or 2010. VS 2012 has too many advantages for building (which is why it was bought to begin with).

...You did scroll BELOW that part, right? That's where the alternate programs are listed.

Um.. I gathered it was just the regular "if you like this, you may also like..." toss-in of random somewhat related programs.

Seriously...:

Qt Creator 1.2.1
Available for: windows mac linux unix java
When you want to build applications with state of the art GUI interfaces you may want to look at Nokia's Qt Creator. It is focused on the idea of providing Qt users the features they need to get up... Read more
Code::Blocks 8.02
Available for: windows mac linux unix java
Code::Blocks is an C++ IDE which makes it easy for experienced as well as new developers to create applications. Application made with Code::Blocks and based on wxWidgets - are portable between Linux... Read more
SharpDevelop 3.0
Available for: windows mac linux unix java
#develop (short for SharpDevelop) is a free IDE for C# and Visual Basic.NET projects on Microsoft's .NET platform. Features code completion, forms designer, syntax highlighting, code bookmarks and... Read more
MonoDevelop 2.0
Available for: windows mac linux unix java
MonoDevelop is an open source free Gnome integrated development environment (IDE) for C#. Eventhough MonoDevelop has a short history it has some of the same features you would find in any... Read more

None of those are alternatives for VS. They are IDEs focused on various types of target applications and platforms.
I don't use VS2012 for it's IDE that is, honestly, already too "windows 8 flat and oversimplified" for my taste (although the IDE is a good help dealing with DTDs). I use it for its compiler/linker and command-line tools.
I'm not developing for QT, don't need a different IDE/editor or wxWidgets development tools, am not developing in VB.NET or C#, and I'm not using Gnome (I'm on windows!). Those suggestions are silly.

[megaman]

On any given day we have, for instance, millions of people testing pre-release versions of Firefox desktop, but we’ve never seen more than 1000 active daily users in the Metro environment.

Majority of the users don't test BETAs, most wait for STABLE. So, they are guessing that users won't use the METRO version based upon their BETA testers, comedy at its finest.
Just making up an excuse to not continue with the project. Public message "PAID BY GOOGLE" could come into question.

As for the topic, I like Australis and I don't have a problem with the layout, but what I am not okay with is how they are locking-out of customization. I don't like everything laid-out by default, and I want the freedom to customize. THERE, I SAID IT!
Time to write to my Congressman again, but this time about Mozilla and its bone-headed decision to eliminate the freedom that they initially brought to its users.

[Sajadi]

Cork says you're underestimating the amount of work to maintain even just the UI. Might have something to do with the Toolkit not being available as a DLL. Having not developed Mozilla stuff, I don't know. Not sure if we can cut the UI code out and replace the toolkit stuff with XULRunner or not.

It would make more sense to stay with V24 codebase and backport security add-ons and features which can be backported. And yes, i also believe that it could be seen on long terms tiresome and complicated to port back with every version change the UI - especially since Mozilla is so desperate in trying to destroy their browser with making it bloated with Web 2.0 crap features and making it more and more hard for a third party builder to be successful with maintaining the own version of the browser.

On the other side, as long as they make it not impossible to backport customization features or the old UI and as long our Pale Moon dev here does not give up - it can be done. It is only a bit much more time consuming and complicated.

But no matter what, what i think is really recommended is teaming up with someone who also has a lot of knowledge in developing Gecko based browsers to share the amount of work. If there really would come the point to go own ways away from Firefox one really has to think about something like that.

[Night Wing]

It would make more sense to stay with V24 codebase and backport security add-ons and features which can be backported. And yes, i also believe that it could be seen on long terms tiresome and complicated to port back with every version change the UI - especially since Mozilla is so desperate in trying to destroy their browser with making it bloated with Web 2.0 crap features and making it more and more hard for a third party builder to be successful with maintaining the own version of the browser.

On the other side, as long as they make it not impossible to backport customization features or the old UI and as long our Pale Moon dev here does not give up - it can be done. It is only a bit much more time consuming and complicated.

The above has been in the back of my mind for quite some time. In other words, how much work is too much work to maintain Pale Moon with all the changes happening to Firefox with the Australis UI? It looks like Firefox 31.0 ESR will tell the tale.

[Moonchild]

Cork says you're underestimating the amount of work to maintain even just the UI. Might have something to do with the Toolkit not being available as a DLL. Having not developed Mozilla stuff, I don't know. Not sure if we can cut the UI code out and replace the toolkit stuff with XULRunner or not.

I'm not underestimating the work. But if Mozilla is hellbent on shipping Firefox with the Australis UI then I'll have to do something to have a usable UI on Pale Moon.
I've also had a close look at what Mike Conley has been backing out in Holly (pretty much exclusively in the browser/ directory, reverting style changes and xul changes, and discounting the whole customizableui module hacking), and dependencies on the toolkit are not extensive, to say the least. Right now it most certainly doesn't look like that would prevent me from porting the current UI forward on a later code base.
Maintenance is also less of a concern when I don't swap stuff around on a rabid release schedule every 6 weeks. So even if it's a lot of work to get a working base, it will be worth it when the major version will last a year or more.

That is, IF there is a need to swap code base, to begin with, because:

It would make more sense to stay with V24 codebase and backport security add-ons and features which can be backported. And yes, i also believe that it could be seen on long terms tiresome and complicated to port back with every version change the UI - especially since Mozilla is so desperate in trying to destroy their browser...

... this is still a viable approach too (regardless of how much of a "Dead End" Cork may think it is). It at least provides an acceptable flexible period of transition, but it may prove the desired base to work from and branch off at.

Thirdly, Firefox, with all its bells and whistles, is still a XulRunner app at its core. It is fairly modular (unless that is also being destroyed as part of the redesign) and the UI is as a result reasonably separated from the core. I said it before: if need be I'll rewrite parts of the UI. And while at it probably get rid of some chunks of spaghetti code with 5 redirections and overloads for a simple function that are present now.

Then, there is, if all else fails, the option to ride Firefox Australis, but with essential additions and changes on top of it (through integrated extensions and additional code) to overlay a sane UI on top of Australis. I would rather not, since it makes the browser unnecessarily heavy, but it's a fallback.

[Sajadi]

Btw. i think i have read recently somewhere that the ESR version will be axed at some point because it is considered by Mozilla nothing more as an "Experiment" do not know if that is REALLY true and i can not find anymore the source where i have read this... But it still would make sense as another long term goal of Mozilla to get rid of all possible customizable competition...

Edit.. Found the source post again! Take a read!

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,29089723?hilite=esr

This sounds to be a very good reason to plan in the near future to stay with an ESR release of choice and step away then from Mozilla.

[Moonchild]

Not sure what to think. video is inaccessible unless you've been "involved in the community" meaning you've done some work for a Mozilla product somewhere (give them your unpaid effort) or a Mozilla employee (the same, but then on the payroll ).
The rest in that thread is hear-say, since I'm not on the esr mailing list I can't verify that.

I think if they plan to really do away with ESR, then they've got yet another problem on their hands (unless they really don't care about the billions of computers in offices that are centrally managed by IT departments...)

[Sajadi]

Well, since a known guy from Mozilla is mentioned i guess that rumor has for sure some threatening truth inside. Mozilla is really doing everything they can to push their market share towards Safari and below levels

Additionally they are now angering tons of users who have been looking forward for the Firefox Metro versions. These guys are so clueless that it really hurts because one knows that it is only a matter of time until they come upwards with another thing which will cost them users.

Someone should fire all these morons and replace them again with Version 1-3 Mozilla guys, would be better for the company and better for the users!

[Night Wing]

I think if they plan to really do away with the ESR, then they've got yet another problem on their hands

I've already made my decision. If Mozilla does away with ESR versions, then Internet Explorer will be my backup browser to Pale Moon. At least with IE, I won't have to worry about unwanted changes to the browser every 6 weeks.

[Sajadi]

Why IE? better take a look of Maxthon or Qupzilla Both are more better choices in my opinion

[Night Wing]

I tried Maxthon a long time ago and for some reason, it didn't appeal to me.

As for Qupzilla, it comes with integrated with Adblock and I'm not keen on having add-ons integrated into a browser no matter how popular an add-on is. In my Pale Moon and Firefox, Adblock is not installed. Also, I think it comes with Speed Dial and I didn't like Speed Dial in Opera. When I wanted to remove Speed Dial in Opera, I couldn't. Lastly, no forum support for Qupzilla and since I'm a non technical user, sooner or later I will run into a problem which I won't be able to solve on my own.

[Sajadi]

Here we go again.. the next general attack of Mozilla against the user! Get ready for that in Version 30 as it seems...

http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2809673

...Opt out only...

[danielson]

@Night Wing, don't like Maxthon either.
It's taking them forever to have extensions!
Don't like latest Opera either but at least they've got extensions!

Wonder if we'll get a Palemoon version of K-Meleon?
At least that browser isn't making any drastic changes like Firefox.
Check out their latest b3 at http://kmeleon.sourceforge.net/forum/read.php?8,127127

[Moonchild]

K-meleon? seriously? XD
It's based on Gecko code 1.8.1 (Firefox 3.5) and has not been updated for 4 years. People would be better off running Pale Moon 3.6.32 in that case

[Sajadi]

How about Seamonkey? It is the most close thing to Firefox when searching for a secondary browser. And the Seamonkey devs are not that Chrome fanatics as compared with Failzilla

How could i forget that one

[Night Wing]

Here we go again.. the next general attack of Mozilla against the user! Get ready for that in Version 30 as it seems...

http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2809673

...Opt out only...

I said it before and I'll say it again. The only time the Firefox browser is safe for the general public user is when Mozilla and the FF developers aren't working on it.

[Moonchild]

I've made Seamonkey builds before. Up to the point where people were throwing a tantrum because the builds had seamonkey branding so I quit experimenting with it.
Besides, apart from basic optimizations when building I don't see much I can/want to do with SM.

[Sajadi]

It is anyway ridiculous that an organization which clearly does not care at all for their product is still developing it. These days Mozilla is anyway all about Mobile and Firefox OS.

Somehow it seems that Firefox for Desktop has for them the same value like Thunderbird - nearly none at all. Everyone with the necessary knowledge and at least a bit of more dedication can do a better job as these amateurish guys at Mozilla HQ!