Australis UI, an update.

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Re: Australis UI, an update.

Unread post by Sajadi » 2013-12-29, 14:57

access2godzilla wrote:Somebody needs to fork FF, since "[the beast has] become hideous and twisted". Restoring core features like these simply can't be reversed in PM due to its low following, since all extensions are targeted for FF (which will have to be rewritten in inferior methods, like Noscript is doing after the removal of CAPS).

Maybe eventually we'll be informed that Mozilla is switching to the Chrome codebase.
Forking Firefox.. That would be for sure a hell of a future Work. Independently developing/implement Features, the UI, Security patches.... Sure, something like that COULD be done - just take a look at smaller browsers like Midori or Qupzilla - they have quite a small developer team behind them, but do not forget, that that would really be a giant job then which the future fork developer would have in the near future.... I do not expect to see something like that to happen. And such a job could also not be done without the help of countless numbers of volunteers which help with the beta testing and developement/Implementing features process ;)

And about adopting the Blink Engine into Firefox... While there is a chance that that could happen in the future i guess it would be highly depending if Mozilla would seriously sacrifice that large amount of time and money to develope their own Future Engine Project Servo into a fully finished product.

If they would decide to abandon that project and Gecko would reach limitations which could not be overcome anymore (Opera with Presto did reach both points already so they switched engines) then i would make a bet that Mozilla would do something like that. At least adopting Blink would save them quite much time and money because many others do already most of the work.

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Re: Australis UI, an update.

Unread post by Moonchild » 2013-12-29, 16:53

SaphirJD wrote:Forking Firefox.. That would be for sure a hell of a future Work. Independently developing/implement Features, the UI, Security patches.... Sure, something like that COULD be done
And what do you think I have been doing with Pale Moon? ;-)
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Re: Australis UI, an update.

Unread post by Sajadi » 2013-12-29, 17:42

Moonchild wrote:And what do you think I have been doing with Pale Moon? ;-)
I know, but still, if for example Mozilla would kill Firefox for whatever for a reason, that would also mean more or less the end for Pale Moon, because after all you are still depending on Mozilla base code ;)

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Re: Australis UI, an update.

Unread post by Moonchild » 2013-12-29, 18:15

SaphirJD wrote:
Moonchild wrote:And what do you think I have been doing with Pale Moon? ;-)
I know, but still, if for example Mozilla would kill Firefox for whatever for a reason, that would also mean more or less the end for Pale Moon, because after all you are still depending on Mozilla base code ;)
If Mozilla would kill Firefox, then the last code base supplied by them would be the basis of the Pale Moon fork. Note that the reason I'm following code base snapshots of Firefox is because "the world at large" is expecting Firefox compatibility. If the engine is switched to something else, then Pale Moon will become a fully standalone product in its own right - of course if that were to happen, any engine developments will be slower than they are now.

Technically speaking, I'm not dependent on the Mozilla code, and I can permanently split off at any point in time I wish.
But, I'm expected to keep Pale Moon in line with Firefox developments and compatible with it, and so I follow the Mozilla code developments. At least up to this point. Apart from a few things that are probably back-portable, Mozilla has slowed down their development of the code base considerably for the desktop part. Focus is very much on Australis, on Boot2Gecko, and on the Firefox/phone/mobile parts - none of those developments are even interesting to look at for me. If there is no clear reason to "move on", then the v24 code base may be used for quite a long time to come.
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Re: Australis UI, an update.

Unread post by Sajadi » 2013-12-29, 18:25

Moonchild wrote:Technically speaking, I'm not dependent on the Mozilla code, and I can permanently split off at any point in time I wish.
Ok, that makes sense, thanks for making that point now clear to me, my mistake then :D
Moonchild wrote:If there is no clear reason to "move on", then the v24 code base may be used for quite a long time to come.
The V24 Codebase is quite nice, and with the possiblity to backport security fixes, even better :) I would have nothing against staying with this code base as long as possible, even if it would be decided to use it even longer as the ESR runs :)

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Re: Australis UI, an update.

Unread post by alex04 » 2014-01-24, 16:02

if anyone wants to test FF with Australis

http://getaustralis.com/

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Re: Australis UI, an update.

Unread post by Sajadi » 2014-01-24, 21:00

The dislike of the Firefox Developers these days towards customizability really baffles me... I of course have already used countless of times the Nightly UX Builds. While in the beginning it did not look that bad, the end result which forces onto the user a more or less Google Chrome experience is just aweful.

Nothing to add to Mozilla's "Chrome" from my side.

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Re: Australis UI, an update.

Unread post by alex04 » 2014-02-11, 17:33


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Re: Australis UI, an update.

Unread post by Night Wing » 2014-02-11, 17:58

alex04 wrote:Aurora with Australis is out

https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/aurora/notes
Bad news for those who don't like the Australis UI, me included. I'm on Firefox 24.3.0 ESR in Windows 7 as the backup browser to Pale Moon so I won't have to deal with Firefox Australis until Firefox 31.0 ESR comes out.

Since Pale Moon in linux is now my default browser in linux, I'll avoid linux Firefox 29 like the bubonic plague by ignoring the update for it when it releases to the general public. I'm guessing linux Firefox 28 will be my backup browser to linux Pale Moon for a very long time.
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Re: Australis UI, an update.

Unread post by Moonchild » 2014-02-11, 20:11

A picture says more than 1000 words? :lol:
The future of firefox-compared.jpg
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Re: Australis UI, an update.

Unread post by Night Wing » 2014-02-11, 21:43

That Firefox Australis image reminds me of the mutated dead zombie dogs in the original movie, "Resident Evil". ;)
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Re: Australis UI, an update.

Unread post by Jonguy30 » 2014-02-12, 17:05

I mentioned previously here that I tried australis in firefox aurora pre-beta channel. It was, uuhm, not fun. The menus were confusing, it was kind of hard to see where everything is. And customisation is limited. A bunch of stuff removed, for example tabs on bottom which I've had since getting FF 3.x. I also tried the classic theme restorer, even that was not the same as classic firefox. By putting tabs on bottom there it looked weird and not fit for it. I also use the the feature that when opening tabs I always double click, never press the plus icon. When I do that in australis the window gets out of full screen, real annoying. All in all, it's a mess. I'm sure you've heard this before, but wanted to share my thoughts too.

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Re: Australis UI, an update.

Unread post by Sajadi » 2014-02-12, 20:24

Yeah, Australis is utterly a pain in the a** - customizability features get killed and more useless stuff like social integration and crap stuff like ads in the browser gets added instead.

The last 2 ones should be the features which should be available over ad-ons and not the customizability which should still be in the core product.

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Re: Australis UI, an update.

Unread post by Moonchild » 2014-03-05, 08:51

I sincerely hope that Mozilla will consider keeping at least one non-australis branch alive and use that for their next iteration of ESR (31, looks like, 3 months after the release of Australis to everyone). I foresee issues trying to make corporate users and administrators switch to the next ESR if it's Australis-based. ESR is, after all, created with the corporate user/admin in mind, not the tablet-wielding teenager, unless that policy has suddenly changed as well, in which case Mozilla is in more dangerous waters than I thought, and the sharks are circling. :think:

Consider, from a corporate point of view:
  • Users are creatures of habit: Regardless the fact that Australis is several steps back in a design/intuitive UI point of view, people have also been using a "Netscape-alike" interface for browsing the web on Gecko browsers literally for decades. They won't want to change their ways when the new interface offers no clear and present advantages.
  • Support maintenance cost for system administrators in corporations. Making a major usability change for users in a tool they literally use all day, every day will cause a massive increase in pressure in technical staff. Does Mozilla really think that corporations are going to invest in additional support when there is no clear reason why Australis is supposed to be "better"? If I were a CTO in a company, I'd reject Australis on that reason alone.
  • Productivity will be down: People no longer having the option to configure/customize/lay out the browser UI the way they want to will force them into a way of working that, for them personally, is less optimal. As a result they will be less productive when doing research, etc. using the browser.
  • Choice of suite: System administrators and management have obviously made careful considerations when making Firefox their browser of choice in favor of the OS-supplied MSIE and in favor of alternatives like Chrome. Making the UI and UI-features into a (poor copy) of a different browser that is still an actively developed alternative (that was decided against for specific reasons when evaluating) will make the suite lose its merit.
These considerations are regular points for business assessment purposes, and all of them are strikes for the way Firefox is going.
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Re: Australis UI, an update.

Unread post by Night Wing » 2014-03-05, 16:24

From reading some of the comments of the Firefox developers, I think when Firefox 31.0 ESR is released, it will contain the Australis UI in it. The Firefox developers have been working on the Australis UI for two or three years now. It's their "baby" and I do not seeing Mozilla abandoning their pet project because their egos would get severely bruised do to all the time and money they've spent on Australis even if it costs them many of their corporate ESR users.

Just like Microsoft who went "all in" with Windows 8/8.1 and bet the farm on W8/8.1 (and lost the farm market share wise), Mozilla is going "all in" and betting the farm with the Australis UI.

In other words, Mozilla is getting plenty of money from Google so if Australis costs them one million or more general and ESR users who switch to a different browser, I believe Mozilla wouldn't care at all since one million users is just a drop in the bucket when Firefox has five hundred million users.
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Re: Australis UI, an update.

Unread post by Moonchild » 2014-03-05, 19:47

Night Wing wrote:In other words, Mozilla is getting plenty of money from Google so if Australis costs them one million or more general and ESR users who switch to a different browser, I believe Mozilla wouldn't care at all since one million users is just a drop in the bucket when Firefox has five hundred million users.
I think the impact of Australis will be a lot greater than "a few million users" on Firefox.
Also, what I indicated are very real points taken from my past experience as an IT manager, and although some management boards may be swayed by the "new shiny", they will likely get a lot of reverse throttling from their IT departments when it becomes clear the IT departments are not able to keep up with their normal tasks because of the extra attention needed to the web browser on every single workstation in the company and complaints from users.

I'm fairly sure Mozilla will try to push Australis in ESR as well, after all, if "code maintenance" for simple features is too much, they surely don't want to maintain 2 interface versions. The mere fact that they have been working on the new interface for this long (and in fact it's been based on an already existing Australis Firefox theme that worked just fine "as a theme") and it's still not finished means there are a lot of technical hurdles and discrepancies between the "UX design team" and the "implementation team" (example: bug #738491 is just for the tab shape and styling, and by itself has over 50 dependency bugs, of which 15 still "open").

Of course the "investment made" is going to be used as the reason to warrant pushing Australis, no matter the impact. But if Mozilla has an ounce of sense they will hold off on Australis for corporate use until after the next ESR cycle has started, just like they have held off on major impacting changes with the previous cycles (gfx overhaul in 11, after ESR10, new JS engine in 18 after ESR17, and they *intended* to have Australis in 25, after ESR24, originally, and have not adjusted their release cycles with the delays; I think they should, while they still can, or at least cover their bases and keep an "old-UI branch" alive until they are sure Australis is being well-received.
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Re: Australis UI, an update.

Unread post by Sajadi » 2014-03-07, 21:00

Of course Mozilla will not back off from their plans. After all that effort and amount of time and money they have been putting in their own development Version of "Chrome", may it be now directly ordered from Google or may it be that Mozilla sees no survival chance with out looking and working like Chrome - they are unable to step back.

Would be the greatest fail sign of all times if they would step back from their plans :D They only can go forward in the territory of unique browser and market share destruction, without compromise, they have chosen this way, now they should go it and see what it will bring... or more most likely will cost them!

With their ads plans and many other decisions in the past since the glorious 3.x times they already lost quite much of their reputation, but it really seems there is still potential left for another very deep fall.

It is a damn pity, that the Mozilla which i have respected and liked until the 4.x times has completely vanished and has been replaced by a bunch of customization haters!

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Re: Australis UI, an update.

Unread post by Moonchild » 2014-03-07, 22:41

SaphirJD wrote:Would be the greatest fail sign of all times if they would step back from their plans :D
I totally disagree. It would show that someone at least still has a brain, and would be a complete win, not a fail.
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Re: Australis UI, an update.

Unread post by Sajadi » 2014-03-07, 23:41

You misunderstood me ;)

Seen from Mozilla's POV it would be the greatest fail sign if they would step back suddenly after all they have done.

Of course seen from a users POV who cares about customizability, common sense and true open source spirit a move backwards made by Mozilla would be heavily appreciated. ;)

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Re: Australis UI, an update.

Unread post by megaman » 2014-03-12, 15:48

I can't remove that darn arrow.
(The Home Button there? And the Back Arrow is non-moveable) WHAT ARE THEY DOING TO OUR BROWSER?! T_T
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