Your Search Engine website is down.

[letmeindude]

In addition, the browser seemed to be barred if its user agent contained the word "Mypal", regardless of the advertised OS.

Mypal doesn't have "Mypal" in its user agent. Like I said, it has the same user agent as Pale Moon. It has Mypal in its window title, though.

[coffeebreak]

I had tried a supposed Mypal UA that I found on some site with lots of strings, didn't save its address:

Code: Select all

Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.0; rv:68.9) Gecko/20100101 Goanna/4.6 Firefox/68.9 Mypal/28.12.0

The part about the operating system... check it.

To repeat... I did access APMO with UAs for multiple other browsers, advertising the W7 OS - but was barred if the OS version was lowered.

[Pentium4User]

Please open about:support and show us the User Agent shown there to avoid any confusion.

[letmeindude]

Please open about:support and show us the User Agent shown there to avoid any confusion.

Code: Select all

Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/74.0.3729.169 Safari/537.36

And I don't have specific UA for https://addons.palemoon.org/ as shown by going here:

Code: Select all

about:config?filter=general.useragent.override.addons.palemoon.org

My OS is XP 32-bit.

[athenian200]

Read the thread again. On my Windows 7 I'm using Pale Moon and I can access addons.palemoon.org, but on my XP I'm using Mypal and I can't access it without changing the UA.

I have a really old laptop from 2002 around, so I checked out of curiosity with IE and K-Meleon and it worked fine for me.

Maybe there's something wrong with your XP machine? It can be dangerous to connect those to the Internet because they're quite easily compromised by various pieces of malware that affect how navigation works. You should probably do a malware scan just to be sure.

[coffeebreak]

Code: Select all

Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/74.0.3729.169 Safari/537.36

[...]
My OS is XP 32-bit.

My impression is that APMO is focused on keeping out any older, unsupported OS (plus Pale Moon derivatives designed to work with those operating systems...?). I'm guessing the site detects that you have XP in a manner other than through the user agent, and bars you for that reason. At least that is my opinion. That is not "barring all browsers but Pale Moon".

a really old laptop from 2002 around, so I checked out of curiosity with IE and K-Meleon and it worked fine

If you don't mind my asking, what was the OS?

[athenian200]

If you don't mind my asking, what was the OS?

Windows XP, Service Pack 1. The laptop can't support Service Pack 2 (or was it SP3 it couldn't run, one of them).

https://support.dynabook.com/support/mo ... ext=148317

Toshiba Satellite 1005-S157, to be precise.

[coffeebreak]

Then so much for my theory.

Nevertheless, scratches head, this really did happen (W7 installed):

I did access APMO with UAs for multiple other browsers, advertising the W7 OS - but was barred if the OS version was lowered.

[gepus]

Code: Select all

Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/74.0.3729.169 Safari/537.36

And I don't have specific UA for https://addons.palemoon.org/ ...
My OS is XP 32-bit.

So you have a general UA override as the above while using XP 32-bit.
Plain stupid to say the least. However, good luck with it.

On a second note, please refrain posting about problems related to XP since this forum is about Pale Moon.

[letmeindude]

So you have a general UA override as the above while using XP 32-bit.

I don't. I have a button User Agent Switcher (Advanced) which can quickly change general UA, which I did for testing purposes.

[letmeindude]

Basically, this started after Tobin got banned from MSFN for insulting people.
That anti-XP/Vista script is low, even from you Tobin.

[Moonchild]

I've been watching all this going on from a respectful distance, but please, all of you, just stop here.

As far as I know MSFN staff invisi-banned Tobin without warning or any sort of communication/dialog, permanently. His reputation on there has always been excellent, and any perceived insult as a result of own actions does not warrant such harsh actions for a long-standing member with a good track record. That this happened anyway tastes a lot more personal, but ultimately I am in no position to critique moderation of a board that isn't mine, so I'll leave it at that.
If you want to talk about low blows, there is the one that started it all. Tobin uses/used MSFN for more than browser related discussions. Whether the reason for this is simply anti-Tobinism, or hatred, or being unable to accept that Tobin has no love for MyPal and related and has been very vocal about it, or a simple overreaction doesn't matter at this point since there was no room left for recourse or discussion.

What happened here is undoubtedly a direct result of the actions there, but also because none of you have taken what little coordinated effort is needed to make any of the XP-hackery a legitimate fork and doing as little as asking if it is ok if such an effort could be using our infrastructure and our servers (and specifically the addons server which Tobin pays for out of pocket) for extension distribution, searching and updates. You think all that is free to run?
No, all of this has been done on the down-low with just "using without asking" which is about as rude as reaching into someone's tip jar and pulling some money out because you decide you want it. What do you think we are? A for-profit company with oodles of resources to spare that over-charges for their products? Is the response that attempts were made to stop that abuse so strange? I think not.
The response from the MyPal/New Moon (ffs come up with some branding!)/XP/Vista corner was a sudden coordinated effort to find out what was "blocking the service" that you had no right to be using in the first place. Coordination, swift analysis and solutions/workarounds, even as far as suggesting to adopt the workarounds for the addons site into the next release of the browser(s). You all can come together to counter some user-agent filtering but not make the half dozen disparate browser projects legitimate with some simple things like proper branding, a website, and asking if your use of the addons site/server is OK, or running your own infra? What's wrong with you people...

You want this kind of stuff from being prevented in the future? Then don't be so selfish.
I have no problem with people staying on XP or Vista or using forks that specifically cater to that use. I have always welcomed OS-specific third-party efforts. I understand that what we cannot reasonably support officially may still be needed in some situations and countries, and at the user's own risk (and unfortunately to the detriment of Internet health as a whole, but so be it), but what I do have an issue with is that you're all treating what we spend a lot of our time, effort and money on to keep running for your benefit as if it's some god-given right to abuse. It isn't.
If you want to do these alternative browsers based on Pale Moon properly, then either work with us in a reasonable fashion and have a dialogue, or run your own servers to provide services for your fork. Phoebus was open licensed for a reason. You can easily run it yourself. You've been given the freedom to change and configure the alternatives as-needed and as-desired, including changes that will not benefit the Pale Moon/UXP project as a whole. All we are asking in return is that you treat your source with some due respect. Lacking that makes people in general less and less inclined to keep their work FOSS. All of this has long-term consequences.

Now we can all continue this petty fight, play cat and mouse, and keep banning people from communities left and right in a response to whatever the latest attempt for abuse and countermeasures are, or we can stop here, right now, and work together like an Open Source community is supposed to. The choice is yours.

[New Tobin Paradigm]

Since those XPeople are now claiming malicous intent and accusations of hacking by a short lived effort to secure our infrastructure against abuse and old and insecure clients, here is the un-obfuscated js:

Code: Select all

function displayContent() {
        if ("oscpu" in navigator) {
          uaPrefix = navigator.appCodeName + "/5.0 (" + navigator.oscpu + ";";
          if (!navigator.userAgent.startsWith(uaPrefix)) {
            return;
          }

          if (navigator.oscpu && (navigator.oscpu.startsWith("Windows NT 5.0") ||
                                  navigator.oscpu.startsWith("Windows NT 5.1") ||
                                  navigator.oscpu.startsWith("Windows NT 5.2") ||
                                  navigator.oscpu.startsWith("Windows NT 6.0"))) {
            return null;
          }
        }      

        var content = document.getElementById("ydob-niam")
                              .content
                              .cloneNode(true);
        document.body.appendChild(content);
        document.body.id = "main-body";
      }

      window.onload = displayContent();

Let me remind you that any service, be it Pale Moon or Binary Outcast either the Add-ons Sites or Sync or anything else are resources intended for use by legitimate users of Pale Moon, Basilisk, Borealis, Interlink, and/or Ambassador ONLY.

Unofficial builds and half-assed forks do NOT fall into this spectrum and ARE considered illegitimate use and abuse of such services. Especially when leeched off of by freeloading groups of people too lazy to make ANY legitimate effort except when their personal access is theatened.

Let it also be known that letmeindude is MSFN user VistaLover and he can fuck off.

[Baloo]

Basically, this started after Tobin got banned from MSFN for insulting people.
That anti-XP/Vista script is low, even from you Tobin.

Literally you basically told the developer of the browser to shove off despite you hacking up literally a version of a browser that hasn't been fully released yet, then complain about errors in the shellservice. Then hack it up even further to work on an operating system that is two decades old and no longer gets security updates. Then when I make a post pointing these things out on your boards, it gets deleted immediately. You people are insane.

[New Tobin Paradigm]

I should note the changes on the webserver configuration also included IE < 11, Chrome < 50, Presto, OS X < 10.7 as well as several scraping bots plus curl/wget. Hardly targeted at soley XPeople. Some of which is still in effect.

I also intend to continue firewall blocking a host of individuals and bots constantly trying to brute force ssh credentials and those using syn attacks leaving connections half open. But I suppose that is not proper server administration either.

How dare I mitigate those attempts at unauthorized server access and abuse too. Maybe I should just hand out root credentials to anyone passing by.

[Tharthan]

He [Moonchild] pretty much (as expected) justifies M.A.T. because he was undeservedly banned from MSFN without notice, as being "a long-standing member with a good track record" ( )

Do you have any actual objections to that analysis?

Once again, fork users are being called "so selfish"...

The way that you are acting is not dissuading anyone from accepting that analysis, so you know.

MONEY ; the addons infra is being maintained fiscally out of M.A.T.'s own pocket; supposedly, "freeloaders" such as the fork-users put a significant extra burden towards bandwidth consumption/server costs...
Edit: Fork users, when using the default Search Engine, DDG, also contribute towards the official project by Moonchild, do they not?

The fact that you show no respect for the people here is quite amazing. You are literally using Moonchild, Tobin, et. al.'s code. One would think that you could show a little respect.

Ah yes, as usual it's always someone else's fault when Tobin goes on a rampage. And I love how MC tries to make it sound like there's some kind of "opening" for everyone to work together.. - what a load of rubbish. Anyone but a fool or the willfully ignorant can see the way they have behaved toward anything they don't approve of or consider to be beneath them. With them it's more like "conform and obey, or die." Who would want to "work with" such an arrogant, self important bunch of jerks?

Well, I guess that that confirms Moonchild's assumption that Tobin's ban was "personal".

Speaking of an "arrogant, self[-]important bunch of jerks", I would say that that certainly seems to be what some of the folks at MSFN are.

[letmeindude]

Literally you basically told the developer of the browser to shove off despite you hacking up literally a version of a browser that hasn't been fully released yet, then complain about errors in the shellservice.

Never happened.

Then hack it up even further to work on an operating system that is two decades old and no longer gets security updates.

I've only changed builtin browser settings, I wouldn't called that hacking. Btw, Windows 7 is no longer getting security updates.

Then when I make a post pointing these things out on your boards, it gets deleted immediately. You people are insane.

I have 3 posts on MSFN, last one being from 2018, so...

[athenian200]

Incidentally, it turns out the reason my XP machine was working was because I installed a UA override a long time ago due to some website blocking Internet Explorer back during the browser wars, and I had it reporting itself as Firefox on Linux or something. I forgot about the override until just now, I hadn't touched that machine in so long.

Anyway, what bothers me about this situation is that they showed right up here shamelessly demanding support the moment this script was installed, calling Tobin "low" on our own forum. Twice, I saw another thread that was locked. They had no evidence that the decision was in response to the ban, or that he acted unilaterally. Yet they casually started throwing such accusations out there, when it was just as likely that maybe we had been planning to block XP from our infrastructure for a while and the plan just went forward now, or maybe his friends were angry at how he was treated and he wasn't directly involved with the decision. All of those things could have been the case, and they showed no charity or self-reflection at all with their assumptions. They showed up here, jumping to conclusions, making demands, acting entitled, getting personal in chasing him down here after having already banned him from their own forum.

Anyway, like I've said in this thread before. We've said on several occasions that we don't support Windows XP, so why are they so angry that we were... well, actually not supporting Windows XP for a day or two? Actually, that was a rhetorical question. I've seen their kind on Microsoft's support forums, going after Skype's developers too. Someone who was cussing them out happened to tell me they were using a fork of Pale Moon on Windows XP after I pointed out that Firefox and Pale Moon had dropped support for it as an argument for why it was unreasonable to expect support 5 years after XP's EOL. That was actually how I first became aware of the work being done on MSFN, and why it sticks in my mind.

In the... er, unfortunate thread on MSFN, you can see them making fun of Tobin in very personal ways now that he's banned, doing things like joking he might be an ugly girl, or making fun of his mental health and speculating as to what kind of disorder he has. In other words... they're not exactly the classiest people in the world, if you know what I mean.

[Pentium4User]

I really don't know the reason for banning XP, 2000 and Vista from downloading stuff from addons.palemoon.org

I would do it like this way:
Warning, you're using an outdated OS that isn't supported anymore by PM, but let people download what they want.
Mozilla also hasn't stopped people from downloading addons with Win XP-

[docR11]

our servers (and specifically the addons server which Tobin pays for out of pocket) for extension distribution, searching and updates. You think all that is free to run?
No, all of this has been done on the down-low with just "using without asking" which is about as rude as reaching into someone's tip jar and pulling some money out because you decide you want it. What do you think we are? A for-profit company with oodles of resources to spare that over-charges for their products? Is the response that attempts were made to stop that abuse so strange? I think not.

With respect, sir. I'm not sure I fully understand this reasoning.

Firstly, I do agree that more should be done on their part to make this a legitimate fork with unique branding and documentation, with any reference to this project stripped for the protection of both. 'New Moon' could quite literally mean anything, and using generic branding provided out of courtesy for a 3 year standing project seems a tad brash. But I personally won't go so far as to call it abusive. Perhaps disabling add-ons AMO search from within the extensions manager would be a fitting move too, in order to further avoid using any Pale Moon servers or infrastructure by default. This would more clearly communicate that there is no affiliation between the respective parties.

But what about the Firefox AMO back before the webextensions apocalypse? Did Mozilla block us from accessing their domain with useragent trickery? They didn't offer us support, and the odd restrictions and introduction of extension-signing damn well felt malicious at the time. But nevertheless the website opened. No cease and desist order was handed down to Pale Moon over its users installing Firefox extensions.
How about entertaining the idea of adding a warning banner on all PM-affiliated websites if the useragent shows sub<NT6.1? Maybe grey out the install button on extensions with a 'download anyway' hyperlink beneath similar to the old Ff AMO? This would make for a rational arrangement, I would think. Convey the message that you're using a non-affiliated fork without being overly restrictive, or in the case earlier almost misleading.

Nevertheless I hope to see this longstanding conflict resolved. I'm having vague memories of Mozillazine , which is putting me in the mood to listen to melancholic Radiohead songs and boil up some tea in deep contemplation with my head in a pillow

Hoping to see this long-standing issue finally resolved, with regard to both intellectual property and rationality

Kind regards