prob w/updates switch search & DDGG not opening tabs in background Topic is solved

Users and developers helping users with generic and technical Pale Moon issues on all operating systems.
Please direct questions that are Mac or Linux-specific (dealing with installation and OS integration) to the appropriate Linux or Mac board.

Moderator: trava90

Forum rules
This board is for technical/general usage questions and troubleshooting for the Pale Moon browser only. The main focus here is on Pale Moon on Windows. Please direct your questions that are specific for Linux and Mac to the dedicated boards for those operating systems.
Technical issues and questions not related to the Pale Moon browser should be posted in other boards!
Please keep off-topic and general discussion out of this board, thank you!
User avatar
Astara
Apollo supporter
Apollo supporter
Posts: 39
Joined: 2019-04-10, 05:54
Location: California, USA

prob w/updates switch search & DDGG not opening tabs in background

Post by Astara » 2020-02-15, 07:44

Frequent updates keep resetting search engine. Can this stop? I didn't mind trying out an alternate search engine, but DDGG has a fatal flaw. The tabs I open w/middle click don't open in background - I have to switch to them then press enter in addr bar then wait for results....

I'm used to spawning off multiple pages in background so I don't have to wait but can just switch to the new tab.

If I goto google website, the pages open normally in background. Of all the weird thing to force on people -- how web pages from results open in background. I thought it was a browser setting, but settings related to that are set to normal settings. First time I've seen such an annoying behavior.

Thanks!
Astara

Potkeny
Moonbather
Moonbather
Posts: 52
Joined: 2018-08-03, 17:00

Re: prob w/updates switch search & DDGG not opening tabs in background

Post by Potkeny » 2020-02-15, 08:37

Astara wrote:
2020-02-15, 07:44
The tabs I open w/middle click don't open in background - I have to switch to them then press enter in addr bar then wait for results....

I'm used to spawning off multiple pages in background so I don't have to wait but can just switch to the new tab.
If I search for something in DDG, then middle-click the results, they all open in the background, can switch to their loaded tab whenever I want to. (Checked both in my daily profile with addons and a fresh new portable).

Is this the behaviour you want to have, but somehow yours doesn't do?

User avatar
Moonchild
Pale Moon guru
Pale Moon guru
Posts: 28189
Joined: 2011-08-28, 17:27
Location: Tranås, SE
Contact:

Re: prob w/updates switch search & DDGG not opening tabs in background

Post by Moonchild » 2020-02-15, 11:14

Astara wrote:
2020-02-15, 07:44
Frequent updates keep resetting search engine. Can this stop?
Check your extensions or privacy settings. Pale Moon doesn't touch search engine settings on upgrade.
"Son, in life you do not fight battles because you expect to win, you fight them merely because they need to be fought." -- Snagglepuss
Image

User avatar
Astara
Apollo supporter
Apollo supporter
Posts: 39
Joined: 2019-04-10, 05:54
Location: California, USA

Re: prob w/updates switch search & DDGG not opening tabs in background

Post by Astara » 2020-02-15, 23:20

Potkeny wrote:
2020-02-15, 08:37
Astara wrote:
2020-02-15, 07:44
Is this the behaviour you want to have, but somehow yours doesn't do?
Correct. I use middle click and it puts the address in the address bar (of a newly opened background tab) but doesn't do the equivalent of hitting "return". Whereas google does work. I also had google as my search provider until recently and after a recent upgrade, had it changed to DDGG again.

User avatar
Astara
Apollo supporter
Apollo supporter
Posts: 39
Joined: 2019-04-10, 05:54
Location: California, USA

Re: prob w/updates switch search & DDGG not opening tabs in background

Post by Astara » 2020-02-15, 23:49

Moonchild wrote:
2020-02-15, 11:14
Astara wrote:
2020-02-15, 07:44
Frequent updates keep resetting search engine. Can this stop?
Check your extensions or privacy settings. Pale Moon doesn't touch search engine settings on upgrade.
Extensions? I wouldn't knowingly add an extension that would change my search provider.

In the pale moon directory, there used to be a google.xml in the palemoon subdir "./browser/searchplugins" that was removed in the last update. I wouldn't have thought some extension would be modifying that directory.

FWIW...I'm talking about when I type my search into the address bar and hit enter -- that used to goto Google.
Now it is being redirected to DDGG. I don't see where I should change my search engine. Wasn't search from the address bar called the keyword search as in the keyword.URL below?

The entries in the config-registry (about:config) seem to be ignored:

browser.search.context.loadInBackground;true
browser.search.defaultenginename;Google
browser.search.openintab;true
browser.search.order.1;Google
browser.search.searchEnginesURL;http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&o ... afe=off&q=
browser.search.selectedEngine;Google
browser.search.suggest.enabled;false
browser.search.update;false
keyword.URL;http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&o ... afe=off&q=

So what about the above would be picking DDGG?

Or are you saying that some extension is redirecting my search to DDGG -- that would seem more than a little bit odd to me.

coffeebreak
Moon Magic practitioner
Moon Magic practitioner
Posts: 2476
Joined: 2015-09-26, 04:51
Location: U.S.

Re: prob w/updates switch search & DDGG not opening tabs in background

Post by coffeebreak » 2020-02-16, 00:01

Astara wrote:
2020-02-15, 23:49
In the pale moon directory, there used to be a google.xml in the palemoon subdir "./browser/searchplugins" that was removed in the last update.
If you add Google to your personal search engines in your profile it will stick.

What versions did you upgrade from/to?

See:
Google Search to be removed from Pale Moon (Announcement)
Google Search to be removed from Pale Moon (Discussion)

User avatar
Astara
Apollo supporter
Apollo supporter
Posts: 39
Joined: 2019-04-10, 05:54
Location: California, USA

Re: prob w/updates switch search & DDGG not opening tabs in background

Post by Astara » 2020-02-16, 19:47

I am not sure of the exact version, but some upgrade this year changed the search behavior (don't understand exactly why).

A year ago it as at PM v26.5.0. That's the one, dunno if you remember, where I said when I used the function to "check for updates", it came back as being up-to-date.

I eventually worked around that using a fresh copy of PM -- but that was many months ago.

I didn't use any added extension for search. FF (and PM) has (or had?) an option to send non-URL looking input on the address bar to a configurable search engine of your choice as managed by the (for lack of a better term) PM/FF "registry" (about:config).

It was no plugin that stopped working, but seemingly the entries I used to use to manage the search from the address bar.

Forgive my ignorance but what the bleep was google trying to dictate to you? How can they have any leverage to control what you design? Obviously I've been using their search from PM in the same old way I've always done it and I don't see how or why google would have a say so in such. Though they seem to be trying to tell everyone how to run their personal computers to best serve google. :problem:

But from everything that was said, some default was changing -- ok, fine. I should be able
to point search at "search-engine-specific-prefix&q=look for this", no?

I understand you want the default to point to DDGG, which I didn't have anything against using on occasion, but I simply put my own search-option xml in the search subdir in case I wanted to use it in the search box, but never really used it as the search string configuration via the 'registry' entries pretty much met my needs.

So now...I guess I want to understand why several people said only a default was changing, but we could switch it back would result in the search config entries no longer working. It sorta feels like something has hijacked my search results. How can it be fixed please?

Tnx,
Astara

coffeebreak
Moon Magic practitioner
Moon Magic practitioner
Posts: 2476
Joined: 2015-09-26, 04:51
Location: U.S.

Re: prob w/updates switch search & DDGG not opening tabs in background

Post by coffeebreak » 2020-02-16, 20:44

Astara wrote:
2020-02-16, 19:47
How can it be fixed please?
coffeebreak wrote:
2020-02-16, 00:01
If you add Google to your personal search engines plugins in your profile it will stick.
Don't add Google to the search plugins in the installation directory. That will cause you problems.

Instead, add it to your profile.
Install it from the Search Plugins section of the Pale Moon Add-ons Site by clicking on the entry for Google. This will place it in your profile where it will never be interfered with by any browser update. After installing, just re-select it as default in the normal way. The choice should stick.

User avatar
Astara
Apollo supporter
Apollo supporter
Posts: 39
Joined: 2019-04-10, 05:54
Location: California, USA

Re: prob w/updates switch search & DDGG not opening tabs in background

Post by Astara » 2020-02-16, 21:38

google-not-supported-byPM.jpg
This certainly doesn't look like "we will support you changing the default" nor
"we aren't prohibiting you from installing a google search plugin".

So I really don't want to add a plugin. I want to know why I can't change it in about:config --
what broke, since plugins seem to be unreliable.

User avatar
Moonchild
Pale Moon guru
Pale Moon guru
Posts: 28189
Joined: 2011-08-28, 17:27
Location: Tranås, SE
Contact:

Re: prob w/updates switch search & DDGG not opening tabs in background

Post by Moonchild » 2020-02-16, 21:48

Astara wrote:
2020-02-16, 21:38
I want to know why I can't change it in about:config
Because that's not how search engine settings are stored.
Astara wrote:
2020-02-16, 21:38
what broke, since plugins seem to be unreliable.
The searchplugins aren't the same as content plugins (despite the name).
Searchplugins are simple files with the necessary information to add a search engine entry to the browser natively. It isn't "code". There is some basic javascript on the page that triggers the necessary browser API to install the search engine using the provided data, and that's all!

I'm not sure why it wouldn't work for you. I just verified in Pale Moon 28.8.2.1 x64: the Google searchplugin works just fine when clicked, and pops up the normal dialog box to add it (and optionally set default in one go).
google1.jpg
Since your installation might be in an unsupported state with the way you manipulated previously, I recommend you try removing Pale Moon (uninstall it), remove any leftover files from c:\program files\ (or the (x86) equivalent) related to Pale Moon, and reinstall it.
If that doesn't help, go to your profile folder (you can easily access it through the troubleshooting Information window), close Pale Moon, and then remove both search.json and search-metadata.json to reset the state of the search engines to a fresh state. Then restart Pale Moon and try installing the Google searchplugin again.
"Son, in life you do not fight battles because you expect to win, you fight them merely because they need to be fought." -- Snagglepuss
Image

User avatar
Astara
Apollo supporter
Apollo supporter
Posts: 39
Joined: 2019-04-10, 05:54
Location: California, USA

Re: prob w/updates switch search & DDGG not opening tabs in background

Post by Astara » 2020-02-16, 22:16

Moonchild wrote:
2020-02-16, 21:48
Astara wrote:
2020-02-16, 21:38
I want to know why I can't change it in about:config
Because that's not how search engine settings are stored.
It used to work unless it was removed. Suppose I wanted to keep the plugin pointed at DDGG, but just
wanted the search from the addr bar to redirect?
Moonchild wrote:
2020-02-16, 21:48
Astara wrote:
2020-02-16, 21:38
what broke, since plugins seem to be unreliable.
The searchplugins aren't the same as content plugins (despite the name).
Searchplugins are simple files with the necessary information to add a search engine entry to the browser natively.
Moonchild wrote:
2020-02-16, 21:48
I understand that from examining the existing .xml files in the browser dir.
It isn't "code". There is some basic javascript on the page that triggers the necessary browser API to install the search engine using the provided data, and that's all!
To say XML isn't code really depends on what is processing it and how it is treated.
That's not a problem.

But this is:
Moonchild wrote:
2020-02-16, 21:48
I'm not sure why it wouldn't work for you. I just verified in Pale Moon 28.8.2.1 x64: the Google searchplugin works just fine when clicked, and pops up the normal dialog box to add it (and optionally set default in one go).
google1.jpg
Being able to specify a search string that is triggered when a non-URL was/is entered in the browser was a more reliable method.

User avatar
Moonchild
Pale Moon guru
Pale Moon guru
Posts: 28189
Joined: 2011-08-28, 17:27
Location: Tranås, SE
Contact:

Re: prob w/updates switch search & DDGG not opening tabs in background

Post by Moonchild » 2020-02-16, 23:00

Astara wrote:
2020-02-16, 22:16
Being able to specify a search string that is triggered when a non-URL was/is entered in the browser was a more reliable method.
I'm sorry but that simply isn't enough data for modern search engines to -fully- function. This is why searchplugins exist and why current versions of Pale Moon act the way they do. That will not be changed.

Off-topic:
Please try to quote only relevant parts of posts you are replying to, and try to use proper nesting levels for quotes to prevent confusion about who said what. You can verify before posting by using "preview".
"Son, in life you do not fight battles because you expect to win, you fight them merely because they need to be fought." -- Snagglepuss
Image

User avatar
moonbat
Moon Magic practitioner
Moon Magic practitioner
Posts: 2298
Joined: 2015-12-09, 15:45

Re: prob w/updates switch search & DDGG not opening tabs in background

Post by moonbat » 2020-02-17, 02:24

Astara wrote:
2020-02-16, 22:16

Being able to specify a search string that is triggered when a non-URL was/is entered in the browser was a more reliable method.
More reliable than what? In that case, stick to DDG and use their bangs feature to run site specific searches.

Otherwise if you'd rather use the address bar only for searching and don't want your site specific searches to route through DDG, learn to use keyword searches.
"One hosts to look them up, one DNS to find them and in the darkness BIND them."

Image
Linux Mint 20 Xfce x64 on HP i5-5200 laptop, 12 GB RAM.
Advanced URL Builder(fork)|PermissionsPlus|PMPlayer|Pure URL|RecordRewind|TextFX

User avatar
Astara
Apollo supporter
Apollo supporter
Posts: 39
Joined: 2019-04-10, 05:54
Location: California, USA

Re: prob w/updates switch search & DDGG not opening tabs in background

Post by Astara » 2020-02-18, 04:17

Moonchild wrote:
2020-02-16, 23:00
Astara wrote:
2020-02-16, 22:16
Being able to specify a search string that is triggered when a non-URL was/is entered in the browser was a more reliable method.
I'm sorry but that simply isn't enough data for modern search engines to -fully- function. This is why searchplugins exist and why current versions of Pale Moon act the way they do. That will not be changed.
Both DDGG and GS(GoogleSearch) are supported via the same common mechanism:

If first word contains a colon then it tries to use the word before the colon as a protocol name, if no such proto, then you get error message to that effect.
If the first word contains a dot(period), or a slash, it tries to use words around the dot or the word before a slash as the site for a URL address with the rest passed to the webserver at the URL. If the name doesn't resolve an error is displayed, and if the path doesn't make sense you also get an error (likely a 404).

Otherwise it uses a search string of the form proto:<site>/[flags for the engine][&][q=]%s, where the text being searched for is substituted for %s. The resulting string is opened in a browser window.

No interactive features of the search engine are operational while you are typing in in the address, instead, browser specific features are active (like completion based on history, bookmarks etc).

The search string fully supports both GS & DDGG with features the this user wants, and doesn't support any features from the search engine before the user presses enter, submitting the string to the specified search engine.

It seems a wide range of search engines can be supported to look up 'input' by such a scheme. This basic search-engine support has been sufficient for a wide range of searches for the past 20+ years. It also has the benefit of not allowing other sites to monitor, manipulate or alter your search and can provide optional features of the search site via site-activated data (cookies).

While other types of search features that do things like provide real-time monitoring and feedback based on what you've typed, or the site you are on may require the use of a plugin, but the most basic type of search support is provided by %s substitution in a static search string.

It seems that the first (and perhaps most basic) search feature to support to connect to a user specified search engine would be that type of string that has been in use for over 20 years. For newer features beyond that basic, a plugin might be necessary, but it seems that the default should be to use the most basic with the default being to use DDGG. The the user can use the simple query+string substitution configuration to provide a compatible search feature with what some or many users have been used to, or they can access other search features not fitting into that paradigm via search-extensions.

I.e. there doesn't appear to be a need to frame compatibility with previous behavior as an "either/or" choice. It would seem that configuring the default to use the "'%s' substituion" to a config-specified site while providing for modern plugins would provide both behaviors, wouldn't it?

vannilla
Board Warrior
Board Warrior
Posts: 1202
Joined: 2018-05-05, 13:29

Re: prob w/updates switch search & DDGG not opening tabs in background

Post by vannilla » 2020-02-18, 09:54

If all you want is getting things like engine-specific history, then you might want to use the search bar rather than the address bar. It's on the right of the address bar, unless you removed it.
Off-topic:
And what does DDGG means?

User avatar
Moonchild
Pale Moon guru
Pale Moon guru
Posts: 28189
Joined: 2011-08-28, 17:27
Location: Tranås, SE
Contact:

Re: prob w/updates switch search & DDGG not opening tabs in background

Post by Moonchild » 2020-02-18, 10:29

Off-topic:
vannilla wrote:
2020-02-18, 09:54
And what does DDGG means?
DuckDuckGo-Go-go-go-go! Search Faster! :D
"Son, in life you do not fight battles because you expect to win, you fight them merely because they need to be fought." -- Snagglepuss
Image

User avatar
Astara
Apollo supporter
Apollo supporter
Posts: 39
Joined: 2019-04-10, 05:54
Location: California, USA

Re: prob w/updates switch search & DDGG not opening tabs in background

Post by Astara » 2020-02-18, 19:02

vannilla wrote:
2020-02-18, 09:54
If all you want is getting things like engine-specific history, then you might want to use the search bar rather than the address bar. It's on the right of the address bar, unless you removed it.
Actually, just the opposite. The way it was set, only suggestions were ones the browser kept from my history/typed addresses/favs. In monitoring webtraffic, a search in the address bar wouldn't send out web traffic until I hit enter.

I removed the search bar, as it took up unnecessary space given that I always search from the address bar.

Repeating my question, given that both DDGG and GS work fine with only the snippet, changeable in the config, why not have the default entry be that and to change that, download some plugin. That should provide complete compatibility with previous behavior, not require looking for additional web-search xml files, and most of all, keep the configuration about search "obvious", in that it uses what it is viewable in the config file. As it is now, search behavior is being guided by some opaque and non-visible setting which is far from "transparent".

User avatar
Moonchild
Pale Moon guru
Pale Moon guru
Posts: 28189
Joined: 2011-08-28, 17:27
Location: Tranås, SE
Contact:

Re: prob w/updates switch search & DDGG not opening tabs in background

Post by Moonchild » 2020-02-18, 21:05

Having it being opaque is actually a good thing. The average user doesn't want to have to know about what search URI they need to enter or even setting a preference to begin with.
In fact, having a UI to manage search engines is much better than having to rely on some obscure setting of some preference in about:config. Everything is right there in the UI. Additional search engines are but a click away. Switching search engines can be done with a couple clicks, or, if you've set it up on a case by case basis using keywords (which is probably the alternative that would work best for you considering you're using the address bar to search). e.g. enter "bing something" to send "something" to Bing, even if your default is Google, etc. etc.

But if you don't like the way that works, nobody is stopping you from doing it differently, either by hacking the browser code to suit your specific needs or by writing an extension to make it act exactly the way you want. We can't cater to every specific desired individual workflow. That is a simple fact.
"Son, in life you do not fight battles because you expect to win, you fight them merely because they need to be fought." -- Snagglepuss
Image

User avatar
Astara
Apollo supporter
Apollo supporter
Posts: 39
Joined: 2019-04-10, 05:54
Location: California, USA

Re: prob w/updates switch search & DDGG not opening tabs in background

Post by Astara » 2020-02-18, 22:40

Moonchild wrote:
2020-02-18, 21:05
Having it being opaque is actually a good thing.
Google told you the same thing -- they wanted you to change some part of the design to comply with some standard they were supporting. You didn't appreciate their advice and made it such that established methods using the registry which had been documented to work a certain way for close to 2 decades, were abandoned in favor of a proprietary (though "open" method of *your* choice.

Certainly you can see the parallel. I in turn had no problem your changing search engines rolled out in the default configuration. I saw no problem as I wasn't using the default. Yet because I had used the browsers' ability to search from the addr bar, by adding a simple redirection string that had worked for some time, I find it isn't the default which changes, but search-requiring-a-plugin with support for previous, agnostic behavior, removed. Before in the absence of a keyword, a search could be chosen.

That seems to be the crux -- the ability for the user to choose a default in their own browser has been removed and pointed at DDGG as a means of forcing the user's new-default to always be pointed at DDGG. This is different than changing the installation default, which is what I'd think most might assume was meant. This appears to means any search done without a keyword is now redirected at DDGG, disallowing the user to pick the default behavior of their own choice, is that the default to choose that you are offering?
having a UI to manage search engines is much better than having to rely on some obscure setting of some preference in about:config.
It is a nice addition if it is an addition, but where it eliminates user choice in configuring their own default, forever, it's forcing your choice on everyone for their own good...Just like google. How can you claim what google does is unfair when you do the same to those using your product?

Must you become google in order to resist them?
Everything is right there in the UI. Additional search engines are but a click away. Switching search engines can be done with a couple clicks,
I don't see where in the UI, the choice is. Indeed, adding search engines via your new methods doesn't even work for me.

I ask where it is configured to always go to DDGG -- such that I can change that to point to the search engine of my choice and am still getting no answer. I have the feeling it is because you've removed the option for the user to choose except through some specific interface that 1) I don't use, and 2) doesn't or isn't working for me. Where am I supposed to, in the browser, see what is configured now, and how to change it?
or, if you've set it up on a case by case basis using keywords (which is probably the alternative that would work best for you considering you're using the address bar to search) ...
I didn't have it set on a case-by-case basis. It always passed a non-address in the addr-bar to a configurable string that was used to sent it to a URL. I'm asking where that string has gone -- where can I choose my search engine to handle non-address txt typed in at the addr-bar?

doofy
Astronaut
Astronaut
Posts: 627
Joined: 2017-08-14, 23:43

Re: prob w/updates switch search & DDGG not opening tabs in background

Post by doofy » 2020-02-19, 00:06

Astara wrote:
2020-02-18, 22:40
where can I choose my search engine to handle non-address txt typed in at the addr-bar?
You've already been pointed to the search plugins area of the add ons site.
If that doesn't work for you, you could try here:
https://mycroftproject.com/search-engin ... ame=google

Slight chance, in either case, you might have to drag the search box back (briefly) onto the nav bar to fix changes.

Post Reply