What's the limit for freedom of speech?

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What's the limit for freedom of speech?

Unread post by KNTRO » 2019-01-23, 15:42

Hello all!

I have this doubt in my head for a couple of weeks now.

I'd like to know what do you people think about this topic. What is the limit for freedom of expression, if any?

I used to think that the limit was the mockery and disrespect. But then I realized the black humor was fullfilled with it. So, I then thought the limit was the black humor itself. But again, I realized you don't need to use black humor to say spicy things. For instance, someone with modals could argument that the fascism is actually a good way of government. In fact, I think there are already entities that do that very thing, but since those entities are very powerful, then society doesn't complain about them and treat them as valid arguments, or so.

Anyway, I'd like to read your thoughts about it.

Thank you so much for reading.
”kulupu li wile e sama mute e ken mute ala la, kulupu li jo e mute ala pi ijo tu.
kulupu li wile e ken mute e sama mute ala la, kulupu li jo e mute pi ijo tu.”
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Re: What's the limit for freedom of speech?

Unread post by adisib » 2019-01-23, 18:52

The limit of your freedoms is when they start to infringe on other's freedoms. It is important to note however that the limit on what you should do isn't the same as the limit on what you have the freedom to do.

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Re: What's the limit for freedom of speech?

Unread post by Legacy Collector » 2019-01-24, 02:30

I think when talking about freedom of speech, your freedom should end where people no longer have the option not to listen to what they don't want to hear.
So enforced propaganda is past the limit, for example.

With freedom of speech, like any freedom, comes the responsibility to respect others and their views and wishes.

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Re: What's the limit for freedom of speech?

Unread post by KNTRO » 2019-01-24, 15:04

adisib wrote:The limit of your freedoms is when they start to infringe on other's freedoms
Legacy Collector wrote:With freedom of speech, like any freedom, comes the responsibility to respect others and their views and wishes.
Thanks both for your comments!

As I said, black humor goes much beyond what you both say. Black humor will potentially "infringe on other's freedoms" and probably does not care about to "respect others and their views and wishes". And black humor is not against law in most of Western countries, for instance.

But again, as I said, there's no need to use black humor as an example for this. Some entities are already "infringing on other's freedoms" and do not "respect others and their views and wishes". I admit I'm not talking about freedom of speech right now, but about others freedoms, like personal choices, for instance.

Back to the freedom-of-speech thing, I still can't see the limit where one should close one's mouth and stop saying spicy things. Do you want an easier example? If you see some 80's TV shows, you surely will find jokes and gags that some of today's communities will find offensive, even if those jokes are actually innocent and with no real, bad intentions.

I mean, the whole world claims more freedom but when you try to use it, much more people than before will try to shut you up. So, people want freedom just to not be able to use it. :ugeek:

It's some kind of Here's your freedom. But don't you dare to use it against me. Speech freely, but do not offend me — You can't make jokes about me, because your freedom is smaller than your previous generation's. It's like confusing to differenciate between freedom of speech and intolerance. That's the problem I'm feeling in this new millennium. Now to be pollitically correct is the de facto new world order. You have to be very, very, deep careful about what you say and what you write. A trailing dot in one' sentences can hurt a community's feelings. It looks like you can't say "In my opinion:" any more, because you have to go out and ask for pardon on the next day. Is this a real "freedom of speech"? I don't think so. :think:

And this thing doesn't stop here. Some social communities have a retro-active behaviour. They censor some artworks like songs, books or films from past decades because they find them offensive. Please, tell me what's the difference between this thing and the Nazis books burnings? Once more: Is this a real "freedom of speech"? I don't think so. :think:

Personally, I think mutual respect is fundamental for today's coexistence, but this "freedom-of-speech-limit" thing is not about what I think — it's about where it ends, if it end at all.

Again, thanks for reading!
”kulupu li wile e sama mute e ken mute ala la, kulupu li jo e mute ala pi ijo tu.
kulupu li wile e ken mute e sama mute ala la, kulupu li jo e mute pi ijo tu.”
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Re: What's the limit for freedom of speech?

Unread post by Sob__ » 2019-01-24, 15:49

Problem with freedoms and rights is that people have the craziest ideas about what they supposedly have. Currently very popular "right to not be offended" is wonderful example. It doesn't exist, because it's logical nonsense. What a person is offended by is a choice. I can choose to be offended by anything, there's no limit for what it could be. Should the whole world respect any crazy whim of mine and avoid doing what I don't like? Of course not, it would be impossible. But so many people think otherwise.

With freedom of speech, the easiest is when it's absolute. No problems with some artificial boundary for what's ok and what's not, anything goes. But it's not ideal, because even extremes like direct calls for violence against specific individuals or groups would be ok. Usually that's where the limit is, but it's still difficult to judge some cases. And pushing the limit further, to include infringement on all possible rights and freedoms of others doesn't make things any more clear, quite the opposite.

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Re: What's the limit for freedom of speech?

Unread post by Marcus » 2019-01-24, 21:38

If there's a limit it's not free.

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Re: What's the limit for freedom of speech?

Unread post by Admin » 2019-01-24, 23:50

I think freedom of speech has a few simple rules of thumb:
  • If you don't want to hear it, don't seek it out.
    i.e.: if you know you won't agree with a certain topic, don't put yourself in a position where you will be exposed to it.
  • If you get offended by what is said, don't listen.
    i.e.: if something offends you, you can respect other people's freedom of speech and go elsewhere.
  • On the speaker's side, it's better to avoid than confront.
    i.e.: If your speech offends others due to topic or expression, limit your audience to those relevant to what you're saying.
And in general, freedoms are given, not taken.
Did you know that moral outrage triggers the pleasure centers of the brain? It's unlikely you can actually get addicted to outrage, but there is plausible evidence that you can become strongly predisposed to it.
Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p002w557/episodes/downloads - "The cooperative species" and "Behaving better online"

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Re: What's the limit for freedom of speech?

Unread post by doofy » 2019-01-25, 00:01

Admin wrote:And in general, freedoms are given, not taken.
This remark *has* to be a troll remark to see who bites.

Well done. I bit.

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Re: What's the limit for freedom of speech?

Unread post by satrow » 2019-01-25, 00:40

Okay Grasshoppers, the rice paper's wearing very thin - if it rips, you're out.

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Re: What's the limit for freedom of speech?

Unread post by Isengrim » 2019-01-25, 01:38

Admin wrote:And in general, freedoms are given, not taken.
Depends upon your philosophy. ;)
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Re: What's the limit for freedom of speech?

Unread post by doofy » 2019-01-25, 02:02

Isengrim wrote:
Admin wrote:And in general, freedoms are given, not taken.
Depends upon your philosophy. ;)
I give my wife the freedom to go out with her friends on Fridays.

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Re: What's the limit for freedom of speech?

Unread post by Dustie_Rose » 2019-01-25, 04:47

OK, I will bite.

Freedom of speech. Doesn't mean the right to say anything to anyone, anytime one feel's like it.
I learned that freedoms are earned, not birth rights. I know that words are arbitrary, which basically means they are given the meaning we attach to them, alone words are only sounds.
A primary cause of misunderstandings, miscommunications every where. On the web, with "global access," with many cultures mixed in different countries, people are getting offended by other's "freedom to speak" by misinterpreting their meaning intended, or because not liking, etc.
In the US Constitution, First Amendment rights; including: freedom of speech, religion, and freedom of the press and the right to assemble. The term "clear and present danger" was added to this by the Supreme Court by a case in 1919. Involving the vary nature of limiting a person's right to free speech that was threatening, or inciting a riot.
I agree with others here, if you don't like what someone says, you don't have to listen. Stick headphones on, or change channel.
Words are cheap, actions always speak louder than words. People are remembered for what they do, not what they say.
my 2 cents worth,
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Re: What's the limit for freedom of speech?

Unread post by Dustie_Rose » 2019-01-25, 04:51

Another way to word that question, is what is the price for freedom of speech, instead of limit. Many have died for centuries just to fight for that very right most take for granted.
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Re: What's the limit for freedom of speech?

Unread post by sidious » 2019-01-25, 05:15

"in the state of nature, it is freedom that oppresses and the law that liberates" (Montesquieu)

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Re: What's the limit for freedom of speech?

Unread post by F22 Simpilot » 2019-01-25, 06:44

sidious wrote:"in the state of nature, it is freedom that oppresses and the law that liberates" (Montesquieu)

in vino veritas
If you're that smart and act like a dork, then you're not that smart after all. :geek:

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Re: What's the limit for freedom of speech?

Unread post by sidious » 2019-01-25, 06:54

F22 Simpilot wrote:
sidious wrote:"in the state of nature, it is freedom that oppresses and the law that liberates" (Montesquieu)
in vino veritas
"In vino veritas, in aqua sanitas"...

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Re: What's the limit for freedom of speech?

Unread post by Admin » 2019-01-25, 08:43

doofy wrote:
Admin wrote:And in general, freedoms are given, not taken.
This remark *has* to be a troll remark to see who bites.
I was quite serious, but maybe my expression requires a bit of explanation because I see now that it could be read wrong if people think about freedoms "being taken" as "being taken away" (even though I didn't say that).

What I mean to say is that in general, others and/or circumstances around you will give you freedoms, and freedoms are not something you yourself take as in "taking liberties".
It falls directly in line with "earning freedoms" -- the circumstances and/or your actions result in that you are given/granted freedoms, as in you earned them. I was just stating it more generally.
Did you know that moral outrage triggers the pleasure centers of the brain? It's unlikely you can actually get addicted to outrage, but there is plausible evidence that you can become strongly predisposed to it.
Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p002w557/episodes/downloads - "The cooperative species" and "Behaving better online"

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Re: What's the limit for freedom of speech?

Unread post by Sajadi » 2019-01-27, 00:07

Well, just use common sense. All what crosses a certain BIG red line (death threats and similar) is the point at where free speech ends.

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Re: What's the limit for freedom of speech?

Unread post by Thehandyman1957 » 2019-01-27, 01:36

Freedom of speech is an interesting idea but in the real world we should always be willing
to find ways to be courteous and understanding of others. Not only that, but have a bit of
wisdom on knowing what to say and when. Or when not to say it at all. ;)

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Re: What's the limit for freedom of speech?

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2019-01-27, 03:30

Freedom of Speech is absolute.. or it should be. One should be allowed to say whatever one desires without restriction.. The social or LIMITED (and I can't stress that enough) legal consequences of what one says is a different matter all together.

The "right" to be offended or have hurt feelings trumping my right to say what ever the hell I please.. Should never be a thing.

Now that I have said that.. What's one more target on my back anyway.
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