Pale Moon is doomed to fail, here is why.

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Sun-Glasses

Pale Moon is doomed to fail, here is why.

Post by Sun-Glasses » 2016-12-31, 21:36

Dear Pale Moon developers and community,

this is is supposed to be an open letter to all of you in which I try to explain why I think my favorite browser won't succeed in the long run. There are several reasons of which some have been talked about here already, but still deserve attention from us since they haven't been resolved. Let me assure you that this is neither meant as a troll post nor an attempt to discourage those great developers here from developing the browser further. Also, please note that I am arguing in favor of general user satisfaction and market share expansion which I deem to be forms of "success", rather than open source principles. Sometimes you have to compromise in order to satisfy the general audience. Not always is it the best move on part of the developers to not support or even kill off some features they deem to be incompatible with open source principles. I will proceed by listing the top eight reasons why I believe Pale Moon will fail at some point in the mid-term future.

(1) BAD ADD-ON SUPPORT


If we are honest the best add-ons are still on AMO, rather than the Pale Moon add-on site. And this is normal, considering that Firefox has a far greater community of developers that target the application. The Pale Moon add-on site is pathetic and I as well as many other users are still sticking to AMO in order to get our favorite add-ons which otherwise wouldn't be available in Pale Moon. Another problem is that you often need an older version of an add-on in order to make it run in Pale Moon, so you have to go to the list of older versions in order to grab it. The average user doesn't know that and is likely to think that the add-on just doesn't work in Pale Moon, which is by no means true. However, it also is inexcusable that we have to stick with older versions of the add-on in question forever. The removal of SDK support is further diminishing add-on support in Pale Moon which angers many users, including me. All the add-on problems of Pale Moon are non-existent in very close Firefox variants like Waterfox (my 2nd browser) and Cyberfox since they, among other things, have included Australis. Yes guys, that's right. The lack of Australis diminishes Pale Moon's add-on range considerably and is a trade-off between a customizable, sane UI on the one hand and a reduced number of add-ons on the other hand. Anyway, Pale Moon didn't have those problems before Firefox 29 and was fully compatible with Firefox add-ons, much like Waterfox and Cyberfox today. Not adopting Australis is a problem for Pale Moon which can't be resolved since Pale Moon doesn't have the huge add-on developer community Firefox has. It is not like Pale Moon is LibreOffice and Firefox is OpenOffice, you know what I mean. Almost nobody will target Pale Moon specifically since this browser has 0,04% (no joke) market share. That's the truth and the developers (which I do respect otherwise) claiming that Pale Moon is a browser of its own and developers have to target it directly is pure hybris. If they continue down that road Pale Moon will be a browser without add-ons, that's it. Every offshot of a major browser currently on the market - like Waterfox and Cyberfox in case of Firefox or Opera and Vivaldi in case of Chrome - is trying very hard to maintain add-on compatibility with the parent browser. Why? Because they know they wouldn't even have a chance without. The same is true for Pale Moon, therefore Firefox add-on compatibilty should be a top priority for the developers. The errors made here are compounded by the refusal to implement WebExtensions support, which is a future add-on platform all major browser vendors have came to agree on. WebExtension support could coexist along with XUL/XPCOM support, as it currently does in Firefox. I mean, why not? What's wrong with WebExtensions if we could still keep XUL/XPCOM add-ons? Nothing in my opinion.

(2) NO CHANCE TO REBASE LATER ON / TOO SMALL DEVELOPMENT TEAM

As far as I understand it won't be possible to rebase Pale Moon on a later Gecko engine once Mozilla drops XUL support. Pale Moon 27 took parts of the Gecko engine version 38 (Firefox 38 ESR...) because the small development team wasn't able to add support for various web standards, be it ECMA/ES6/Javascript, so they chose to rebase and transfer the old interface. Once Firefox drops XUL support Mozilla will develop Gecko in a whole new direction (Project Qunatum etc.) and it will be incredibly hard to keep the old interface and rebase Pale Moon, if it will be possible at all. Furthermore, security concerns must also arise. Pale Moon will become more and more insecure with an its old Gecko/Goanna engine. More and more fixes Mozilla adds won't apply to Pale Moon or would have to be fixed in an entirely other way - no option to backport fixes anymore. Without the option to rebase, the small development team will have to give up at some point and Pale Moon will be left behind in the dust. You don't have the manpower to maintain the engine on your own without the option to rebase, believe me. Even Jon von Tetzchner and his team of 20+ talented developers doesn't believe to have the manpower to develop an engine other than Blink which Google provides. Why should Pale Moon be an exception here? The day will come when Pale Moon will be unusable.

(3) NO GOOGLE SEARCH INCLUDED


Google is the market leader with over 80% of people online using its search engine. In understand the reason why Pale Moon had to remove Google Search from the browser, but that doesn't change the fact that people came to expect the search engine to be included in a browser a long time ago. It's hybris to say that Internet Explorer and Firefox don't have Google as the standard search engine, too. In Firefox it takes two clicks to make Google the standard search engine and Internet Explorer is Internet Explorer... People have to use it at work so it doesn't matter at all. Also, it is still a major browser and people are more willing to solve problems in this case. Furthermore a lot more sites provide help and support for the browser. That's just not the case with Pale Moon. New users would expect Pale Moon to work the way they want right from the start. Please developers, at least add some kind of popup asking people to install Google at the first start of the browser. If they don't want it they can decline, but that would be a great help to a great many people. Nobody knows that they have to go to some specific Pale Moon site with a list of search engines to install something like Google. And no, nobody out there aside from some nerds uses DuckDuckGo. Even DuckDuckGo users are sometimes using Google, myself included. Please, try to faciliate the install of Google Search if you can't have it in the browser by default. People who are not tech-savvy won't understand the absence of Google, that's it.

(4) NO DIGITAL RIGHTS MANAGEMENT

I do understand the reluctance of the Pale Moon team to include a DRM component in the browser, it's not open source and kind of a blackbox and all that. But users of Pale Moon are put into serious disadvantage by locking them out of commercial services like Netflix which require a DRM component. People can expect from a browser to allow them access to their favorite legal sites. You also have to understand the developers of the DRM module! If it would be open source everyone could modify it easily and solutions to break DRM at sites like Netflix would soon pop up. I mean, the vendors also have a right to protect their content from pirates, and a non-open source DRM component is essential to make that possible. I don't understand the hatred for the DRM module at this site. How are some sites supposed to operate otherwise? There is no such thing like a free lunch! It would be great if the Pale Moon team could start an open discussion with the community about the inclusion of DRM instead of being headstrong and outright refusing to take it into consideration. Start a discussion about this issue and see how the community reacts. If they don't want DRM, that's fine as well. But I am sure many would like to use their favorite commercial sites on Pale Moon still.

(5) NO PDF READER

This is a standard feature of browsers today and should be included into Pale Moon. Yes, it opens an attack vector, and yes, it is an additional burden, but most people really expect that from a modern browser. Even the solution in Pale Moon 26 and earlier was bad, but at least one could activate it. But Pale Moon 27 literally doesn't even have such a component. If that is your ultimate decision, than at least make it possible for Pale Moon to detect NPAPI plug-ins like Adobe Acrobat or Sumatra automatically, and use them by default. Not so tech-savvy users won't understand why they can't read PDFs right away in Pale Moon and this will lead to complaints all the time.

(6) NO MEDIA COVERAGE / DISTRIBUTION PROBLEMS

That is a problem which doesn't have to do something with the browser itself, but rather with the environment it exists in. Pale Moon is nowhere to be seen in the media landscape. I don't know why, since Vivaldi was heavily advertised even before it arrived. It was seen in IT magazines and was mentioned a lot in news articles. Pale Moon doesn't get much attention whatsoever. Sometimes it is also helpful to get some partners on board by including their search engines, for example. Amazon and Ebay for example are paying Opera (a quite small browser as well) something for including their search engine and/or links to their sites. This leads to honorable mentions of Opera as a browser they officially support, which in turn raises its popularity. The key is to be covered in the media and to get recommended a lot. Pale Moon as a browser is fine, but I just came to find it by mistake. But maybe there is no purpose for Pale Moon today, since we have the Open Source browser which defeated the Internet Explorer already (Firefox) as well as the new, slick and "cool" browser (Chrome). Pale Moon could rise when Firefox loses add-on support and thus gain more developers and recognition, but its failing add-on support is somewhat defeating that. Also, it would be great if the Pale Moon website and the add-on page would get a more modern style, they are just not pleasant to look at. A new program logo could help, too.

(7) THE LACK OF NEW STANDARD FEATURES

The lack of audio indicators on noisy tabs is annoying even for me. This should be included in a browser today. Furthermore there is no reader mode in Pale Moon. I know all that "We don't determine how the content of a site is displayed..." talk, but many many people are using that mode in Firefox and other browsers and that should be a standard feature as well. Why don't you just use Firefox' reader mode? Anyway, these features should be included at some point in the future.

(8) INCOMPLETE MAC SUPPORT / FOSSAMAIL


The lack of a Mac build was quite funny considering that the far less popular Linux system has had an official build for a very long time. In this capacity I want to thank sugis for providing one most recently. However, it would be great if the main development team would consider full Mac support in the future. This shouldn't be so hard, considering that Firefox always supported the Mac and Pale Moon descends from Firefox. I would appreciate theme support for the Mac as well. In my opinion Mac should have priority over Linux, shouldn't it? Anyway. I don't know how much time the Pale Moon team invests into FossaMail, but if it is slowing down the Pale Moon development perhaps it would be a good idea to give it up.

Again, this is not meant as trolling. It is a serious list of complaints and proposals written in order to discuss Pale Moon's future from the user perspective. I did not put much emphasis on open source matters and tried to concentrate on Pale Moon's long-term prospects and future. Many improvements have already taken place, such as the rebase on Pale Moon 27 and the introduction of Media Source Extensions. Some features like the XSS filter and the classic download window had to jump the shark regardless. I would like to hear some other opinions or additions to the points I made as well. Would be great to hear something from developers and community alike.

Happy New Year 2017 to all of you.
Last edited by Sun-Glasses on 2016-12-31, 22:26, edited 1 time in total.

half-moon

Re: Pale Moon is doomed to fail, here is why.

Post by half-moon » 2016-12-31, 22:11

Sun-Glasses wrote:Dear Pale Moon developers and community,

<snip>
(3) NO GOOGLE SEARCH INCLUDED[/b]

Google is the market leader with over 80% of people online using its search engine. In understand the reason why Pale Moon had to remove Google Search from the browser, but that doesn't change the fact that people came to expect the search engine to be included in a browser a long time ago. It's hybris to say that Internet Explorer and Firefox don't have Google as the standard search engine, too. In Firefox it takes two clicks to make Google the standard search engine and Internet Explorer is Internet Explorer... People have to use it at work so it doesn't matter at all. Also, it is still a major browser and people are more willing to solve problems in this case. Furthermore a lot more sites provide help and support for the browser. That's just not the case with Pale Moon. New users would expect Pale Moon to work the way they want right from the start. Please developers, at least add some kind of popup asking people to install Google at the first start of the browser. If they don't want it they can decline, but that would be a great help to a great many people. Nobody knows that they have to go to some specific Pale Moon site with a list of search engines to install something like Google. And no, nobody out there aside from some nerds uses DuckDuckGo. Even DuckDuckGo users are sometimes using Google, myself included. Please, try to faciliate the install of Google Search if you can't have it in the browser by default. People who are not tech-savvy won't understand the absence of Google, that's it.
Really, you want annoying pop-ups asking if you want google to be added? I don't.
Sun-Glasses wrote:(4) NO DIGITAL RIGHTS MANAGEMENT

I do understand the reluctance of the Pale Moon team to include a DRM component in the browser, it's not open source and kind of a blackbox and all that. But users of Pale Moon are put into serious disadvantage by locking them out of commercial services like Netflix which require a DRM component. People can expect from a browser to allow them access to their favorite legal sites. You also have to understand the developers of the DRM module! If it would be open source everyone could modify it easily and solutions to break DRM at sites like Netflix would soon pop up. I mean, the vendors also have a right to protect their content from pirates, and a non-open source DRM component is essential to make that possible. I don't understand the hatred for the DRM module at this site. How are some sites supposed to operate otherwise? There is no such thing like a free lunch! It would be great if the Pale Moon team could start an open discussion with the community about the inclusion of DRM instead of being headstrong and outright refusing to take it into consideration. Start a discussion about this issue and see how the community reacts. If they don't want DRM, that's fine as well. But I am sure many would like to use their favorite commercial sites on Pale Moon still.
DRM is immoral and it's defective by design. If it can be seen or heard, it can be recorded; Therefore, DRM is just a plain PITA for paying customers. DRM should not be in a browser period. I'm praise the devs decision to not include it.
Sun-Glasses wrote:(5) NO PDF READER

This is a standard feature of browsers today and should be included into Pale Moon. Yes, it opens an attack vector, and yes, it is an additional burden, but most people really expect that from a modern browser. Even the solution in Pale Moon 26 and earlier was bad, but at least one could activate it. But Pale Moon 27 literally doesn't even have such a component. If that is your ultimate decision, than at least make it possible for Pale Moon to detect NPAPI plug-ins like Adobe Acrobat or Sumatra automatically, and use them by default. Not so tech-savvy users won't understand why they can't read PDFs right away in Pale Moon and this will lead to complaints all the time.
Pale Moon can use NPAPI no problems, so I don't understand the complain there.
Sun-Glasses wrote:(6) NO MEDIA COVERAGE / DISTRIBUTION PROBLEMS

That is a problem which doesn't have to do something with the browser itself, but rather with the environment it exists in. Pale Moon is nowhere to be seen in the media landscape. I don't know why, since Vivaldi was heavily advertised even before it arrived. It was seen in IT magazines and was mentioned a lot in news articles. Pale Moon doesn't get much attention whatsoever. Sometimes it is also helpful to get some partners on board by including their search engines, for example. Amazon and Ebay for example are paying Opera (a quite small browser as well) something for including their search engine and/or links to their sites. This leads to honorable mentions of Opera as a browser they officially support, which in turn raises its popularity. The key is to be covered in the media and to get recommended a lot. Pale Moon as a browser is fine, but I just came to find it by mistake. But maybe there is no purpose for Pale Moon today, since we have the Open Source browser which defeated the Internet Explorer already (Firefox) as well as the new, slick and "cool" browser (Chrome). Pale Moon could rise when Firefox loses add-on support and thus gain more developers and recognition, but its failing add-on support is somewhat defeating that. Also, it would be great if the Pale Moon website and the add-on page would get a more modern style, they are just not pleasant to look at. A new program logo could help, too.
gHacks has written articles about Pale Moon.
Sun-Glasses wrote:(7) THE LACK OF NEW STANDARD FEATURES

The lack of audio indicators on noisy tabs is annoying even for me. This should be included in a browser today. Furthermore there is no reader mode in Pale Moon. I know all that "We don't determine how the content of a site is displayed..." talk, but many many people are using that mode in Firefox and other browsers and thgat sould be a standard feature as well. Why don't you just use Firefox' reader mode? Anyway, these features should be included at some point in the future.
Those aren't standard features, those are novelties. Also, I'm assuming the whole Firefox reader mode wouldn't be compatible.
Sun-Glasses wrote:(8) INCOMPLETE MAC SUPPORT / FOSSAMAIL

The lack of a Mac build was quite funny considering that the far less popular Linux system has had an official build for a very long time. in this capacity I want to thank sugis for providing one most recently. However, it would be great if the main development team would consider full Mac support in the future. This shouldn't be so hard, considering that Firefox always supported the Mac and Pale Moon descends from Firefox. I would appreciate theme support for the Mac as well. In my opinion Mac should have priority over Linux, shouldn't it? Anyway. I don't know how much time the Pale Moon team invests into FossaMail, but if it is slowing down the Pale Moon development perhaps it would be a good idea to give it up.
I like FossaMail, and I think it should still be maintained. Also, why do you think mac support should matter more than linux support? I'm guessing with how things are now, supporting Linux is much easier than supporting Mac.
Sun-Glasses wrote:Again, this is not meant as trolling. It is a serious list of complaints and proposals written in order to discuss Pale Moon's future from the user perspective. I did not put much emphasis on open source matters and tried to concentrate on Pale Moon's long-term prospects and future. Many improvements have already taken place, such as the rebase on Pale Moon 27 and the introduction of Media Source Extensions. Some features like the XSS filter and the classic download window had to jump the shark regardless. I would like to hear some other opinions or additions to the points I made as well. Would be great to hear something from developers and community alike.

Happy New Year 2017 to all of you.
Happy New Years to you too. :)

Sun-Glasses

Re: Pale Moon is doomed to fail, here is why.

Post by Sun-Glasses » 2016-12-31, 22:47

Really, you want annoying pop-ups asking if you want google to be added? I don't.
A one-time pop-up at the first start of the browser won't hurt anybody and will help the standard user a lot. Mind you, I didn't talk about myself here.
DRM is immoral and it's defective by design. If it can be seen or heard, it can be recorded; Therefore, DRM is just a plain PITA for paying customers. DRM should not be in a browser period. I'm praise the devs decision to not include it.
How is the lack of DRM helpful? You will be locked out from sites like Netfix due to the simple fact that there is no DRM module in the browser. Is it really worth it? Pale Moon won't hurt the people utilizing DRM with 0,04% market share, rather it will hurt itself. Excluding DRM has zero advantages for us users. Including it has numerous advantages. I also didn't advocate DRM, I just talk about the current situation in a neutral way, as should you.
Pale Moon can use NPAPI no problems, so I don't understand the complain there.
Pale Moon supporting NPAPI is not what I meant to say here. You have to go to settings -> applications and choose Adobe Acrobat explicitly in order to use PDFs in Pale Moon. The normal user doesn't do this. Again, I am not talking about myself here.
gHacks has written articles about Pale Moon.
gHacks is one site. Look up the variety of sites which reported about Vivaldi. Don't even compare!
Those aren't standard features, those are novelties. Also, I'm assuming the whole Firefox reader mode wouldn't be compatible.
If Firefox, Chrome, Opera and Safari have them, then they are standard. They do. Again, now they should be in Pale Moon. And no, the Pale Moon developers outright refused to include the reader mode and I don't understand their reasoning here.
I like FossaMail, and I think it should still be maintained. Also, why do you think mac support should matter more than linux support? I'm guessing with how things are now, supporting Linux is much easier than supporting Mac.
Mac should matter more than Linux simply because there are eight times as many Mac users than Linux users. And if you like FossaMail you probably also like Thunderbird and Postbox, there is no real need for that program imho. However, it really depends how much the Pale Moon devs do invest effectively.

half-moon

Re: Pale Moon is doomed to fail, here is why.

Post by half-moon » 2016-12-31, 23:06

Sun-Glasses wrote:
Really, you want annoying pop-ups asking if you want google to be added? I don't.
A one-time pop-up at the first start of the browser won't hurt anybody and will help the standard user a lot. Mind you, I didn't talk about myself here.
I think a lot of people would be annoyed by it and Moonchild would probably get all sorts of flak for including something like that.
Sun-Glasses wrote:
DRM is immoral and it's defective by design. If it can be seen or heard, it can be recorded; Therefore, DRM is just a plain PITA for paying customers. DRM should not be in a browser period. I'm praise the devs decision to not include it.
How is the lack of DRM helpful? You will be locked out from sites like Netfix due to the simple fact that there is no DRM module in the browser. Is it really worth it? Pale Moon won't hurt the people utilizing DRM with 0,04% market share, rather it will hurt itself. Excluding DRM has zero advantages for us users. Including it has numerous advantages. I also didn't advocate DRM, I just talk about the current situation in a neutral way, as should you.
IMO, it is worth it.
Sun-Glasses wrote:
Those aren't standard features, those are novelties. Also, I'm assuming the whole Firefox reader mode wouldn't be compatible.
If Firefox, Chrome, Opera and Safari have them, then they are standard. They do. Again, now they should be in Pale Moon. And no, the Pale Moon developers outright refused to include the reader mode and I don't understand their reasoning here.
Just because a few other browsers include, it doesn't make it "standard". Also, many here do not like change and Moonchild would get a lot of flak for adding a reader mode. I wouldn't mind if a Reader mode was added, but it's unnecessary.
Sun-Glasses wrote:
I like FossaMail, and I think it should still be maintained. Also, why do you think mac support should matter more than linux support? I'm guessing with how things are now, supporting Linux is much easier than supporting Mac.
Mac should matter more than Linux simply because there are eight times as many Mac users than Linux users.
Not an argument.
And if you like FossaMail you probably also like Thunderbird and Postbox, there is no real need for that program imho. However, it really depends how much the Pale Moon devs do invest effectively.
First off: Postbox is for smartphones, so that would be useless to me. Also, it's closed-source.
Second: Unlike Thunderbird, Fossamail is secure out-of-the-box and it is still being maintained.
Third: There is a need for programs like Fossamail; I should be able to read my emails free from ads and shit like javascript.

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Re: Pale Moon is doomed to fail, here is why.

Post by Nigaikaze » 2016-12-31, 23:31

Sun-Glasses wrote:Dear Pale Moon developers and community ....
For the majority of the issues you list here -- add-on support, size of development team, no PDF reader, lack of "new standard" features, incomplete Mac support -- I have one thing to say: If the people complaining about such things would divert the energy spent complaining into learning the skills this project needs, then they would be able to actively participate in resolving all of these issues, join the team, and help the project grow in the directions that they are complaining about. That, to me, would be a far better use of time and energy in helping Pale Moon grow than posts like this.
Nichi nichi kore ko jitsu = Every day is a good day.

half-moon

Re: Pale Moon is doomed to fail, here is why.

Post by half-moon » 2016-12-31, 23:44

Nigaikaze wrote:
Sun-Glasses wrote:Dear Pale Moon developers and community ....
For the majority of the issues you list here -- add-on support, size of development team, no PDF reader, lack of "new standard" features, incomplete Mac support -- I have one thing to say: If the people complaining about such things would divert the energy spent complaining into learning the skills this project needs, then they would be able to actively participate in resolving all of these issues, join the team, and help the project grow in the directions that they are complaining about. That, to me, would be a far better use of time and energy in helping Pale Moon grow than posts like this.
I agree, but I don't think people will learn and that's sad. Although I'd like to see more community involvement, I almost fear for what more community involvement might bring.

Sun-Glasses

Re: Pale Moon is doomed to fail, here is why.

Post by Sun-Glasses » 2016-12-31, 23:49

For the majority of the issues you list here -- add-on support, size of development team, no PDF reader, lack of "new standard" features, incomplete Mac support -- I have one thing to say: If the people complaining about such things would divert the energy spent complaining into learning the skills this project needs, then they would be able to actively participate in resolving all of these issues, join the team, and help the project grow in the directions that they are complaining about. That, to me, would be a far better use of time and energy in helping Pale Moon grow than posts like this.
I agree, but I don't think people will learn and that's sad. Although I'd like to see more community involvement, I almost fear for what more community involvement might bring.
Please acknowledge that most users are just users, not developers. This is true for every platform out there, especially for browsers.

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Re: Pale Moon is doomed to fail, here is why.

Post by Moonraker » 2016-12-31, 23:53

For christs sake,why go through the pain of such a big post.If you dont like how palemoon is then simply do not use it and move on.I can never understand this rant mentality.
Happy new year to everyone. :D
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Sun-Glasses

Re: Pale Moon is doomed to fail, here is why.

Post by Sun-Glasses » 2017-01-01, 00:05

I think a lot of people would be annoyed by it and Moonchild would probably get all sorts of flak for including something like that.
It would help the standard user regardless. Also, there is no browser which satifies everyone's needs. Helping new users should have priority over calming down some people whining about a one-time pop-up(!).
IMO, it is worth it.
Care to explain how the exclusion of DRM is HELPING the user?
Just because a few other browsers include, it doesn't make it "standard". Also, many here do not like change and Moonchild would get a lot of flak for adding a reader mode. I wouldn't mind if a Reader mode was added, but it's unnecessary.
Those browsers control 99% of the market together, so the feature is standard. Period. Also, you can't expect the browser to only include features you do particularly like. I for example have no use for Status-4-Evar, but I still tolerate it as a feature. Maybe we should calm down and think about how a reader mode could harm the experience of some users. If it doesn't, then there is literally no reason not to include it.
Not an argument.
If the number of users of a platform doesn't play a role in the decision whether or not to support a platform, what plays a role then? Care to explain why Pale Moon is available for Android, but not for Bada OS, Sailfish OS... It's the numbers! Also "Not an argument." is a very non-saying response and by itself not an argument.
First off: Postbox is for smartphones, so that would be useless to me. Also, it's closed-source.
Second: Unlike Thunderbird, Fossamail is secure out-of-the-box and it is still being maintained.
Third: There is a need for programs like Fossamail; I should be able to read my emails free from ads and shit like javascript
Postbox is a desktop e-mail client. Go read it up. Secondly, Thunderbird is as secure as FossaMail if not more secure. Thunderbird not being maintained is just plain wrong. Thunderbird is in ESR mode and gets one major update every year, the next will be Thunderbird 52. Actually, that's more of a major update than anything FossaMail gets. And the "need" you describe for FossaMail is true for every desktop e-mail client and there are hundreds of them out there, including Thunderbird and Postbox.

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Re: Pale Moon is doomed to fail, here is why.

Post by themew » 2017-01-01, 00:07

I can't remember voting for Sun-Glasses to be the spokesman for all Pale Moon users.

For those of us that are corporately done with Chrome and Firefox, Pale Moon is a breath of fresh air and just simply works.

I'd like you to find a forum operated by Google or Mozilla that gets the personal attention and response to issue like we are fortunate to receive here from the coding-geniuses that create and maintain Pale Moon.

Since you seem to have loads of time on your hands to spend as much time as it took you to type your diatribe of opinion, why not go ahead and design your own browser.

When you're done, come back and we'll try it out and we promise to give you our opinion of your work.

Sun-Glasses

Re: Pale Moon is doomed to fail, here is why.

Post by Sun-Glasses » 2017-01-01, 00:10

For christs sake,why go through the pain of such a big post.If you dont like how palemoon is then simply do not use it and move on.I can never understand this rant mentality.
Happy new year to everyone. :D
Please understand that this is no rant, but a collection of things I believe could be improved about Pale Moon. If you think Pale Moon is just fine as it is, so be it. But in the long run there will be problems and I am trying to mention them before they arise. How is that a rant? Anyway, I would use Firefox and I actually do use Waterfox currently but seeing how they will kill off my add-ons in the future I don't see a reason to trust them in the long run. What browser am I supposed to use if I want to keep those add-ons. That's Pale Moon, and I want it to go further and be strong in the future. This is no general dislike for the browser, if I would dislike it, I wouldn't write such a long post as you said.

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Re: Pale Moon is doomed to fail, here is why.

Post by Nigaikaze » 2017-01-01, 00:13

Addressing a few specific items:
Sun-Glasses wrote:NO CHANCE TO REBASE LATER ON
Moonchild has stated in the past that the recent rebase was essentially a one-time thing, and that no further rebases will be necessary in the future. I forget his exact words regarding that, but you can easily dig them up via a forum search.
Sun-Glasses wrote:Furthermore, security concerns must also arise. Pale Moon will become more and more insecure with an its old Gecko/Goanna engine.
Moonchild has a background in IT security, Goanna has already diverged from Gecko, and Moonchild has already fixed Pale Moon specific security issues that have come up. I do not see this concern of yours as being realistic, at all.
half-moon wrote:Really, you want annoying pop-ups asking if you want google to be added? I don't.
I second this. I would not want that, either.
Sun-Glasses wrote:Nobody knows that they have to go to some specific Pale Moon site with a list of search engines to install something like Google.
Gee whiz, it's just a few clicks - click the search engine drop-down, "Manage Search Engines," "Get more search engines." My 84-year old mother can find that on her own. And no, she is certainly not tech-savvy.
Sun-Glasses wrote:But users of Pale Moon are put into serious disadvantage by locking them out of commercial services like Netflix which require a DRM component. People can expect from a browser to allow them access to their favorite legal sites.
I, personally, have never needed DRM to be incorporated into Pale Moon. None of the sites that I access on a regular basis require it. Considering the number of requests for it, I do see some value in someone attempting to incorporate DRM as a Pale Moon extension, but I don't even know if that's possible/feasible from a technical standpoint.
Sun-Glasses wrote:Not so tech-savvy users won't understand why they can't read PDFs right away in Pale Moon
Hmmm ... I need help. Let me click on "Help" to see what happens. Here's a list, let me click on "Help" here. Oh look, a FAQ! With a link to the forum! I'm sure someone there can help me .... You don't need to be tech-savvy to find the forum and ask for help.
Sun-Glasses wrote:Pale Moon is nowhere to be seen in the media landscape.
Hmmm ... I need an alternative for Firefox. Let me search on Google (firefox alternative) to see what happens. Here's a list of results, and the first item on the list is "6 Alternative Browsers Based on Mozilla Firefox." Let me click on that. Oh look, Pale Moon is #2 on that list! Again, I do not see I do not see this concern of yours as being realistic, at all.
Sun-Glasses wrote:The lack of audio indicators on noisy tabs is annoying even for me. This should be included in a browser today.
Gee whiz, I have never needed that. Ever. And as I recall, a member of the community has already developed an extension for exactly that. I can't vouch for exactly how well it works, but I do know it exists.
Sun-Glasses wrote:The lack of a Mac build was quite funny considering that the far less popular Linux system has had an official build for a very long time.
I'm not surprised about this at all, since I'm pretty sure that the average Linux user has a lot more knowledge about compiling programs for Linux than the average Mac user has for compiling programs for OS X, macOS or whatever Apple's operating system is called now. Building for non-Windows operating systems requires members of this community to step up, take the plunge, actively do it, and continue to support it after the fact. Even people with the requisite knowledge might not want or be able to commit to the rigors of supporting the builds that they offer to the community. And this, in turn, harkens back to my prior post here -- that actively participating in helping the developers develop is the absolute best way to ensure that this project does not and will not, as you say, fail.
Sun-Glasses wrote:I don't know how much time the Pale Moon team invests into FossaMail, but if it is slowing down the Pale Moon development perhaps it would be a good idea to give it up.
I have to shake my head in (a bad kind of) awe when I see a suggestion like this. I have yet to see any evidence that FossaMail development has ever delayed Pale Moon development. And dropping FossaMail would end up alienating/angering a whole subset of users out there that depend on that program as much as the rest of us depend on Pale Moon. One last time here, I do not see I do not see this concern of yours as being realistic, at all.
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Re: Pale Moon is doomed to fail, here is why.

Post by Nigaikaze » 2017-01-01, 00:17

Sun-Glasses wrote:Please acknowledge that most users are just users, not developers. This is true for every platform out there, especially for browsers.
What I will acknowledge is that users who are not developers can learn enough to be able to help full-time developers out. It just needs to be important enough to them for them to make that change. That is also true for every platform out there.
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Re: Pale Moon is doomed to fail, here is why.

Post by Sun-Glasses » 2017-01-01, 00:22

I can't remember voting for Sun-Glasses to be the spokesman for all Pale Moon users.
Am I supposed to get elected in order to voice my opinion? I am sorry if my opinion is not the same as yours, but this no reason to attack me. In my post I didn't attack anyone. And I didn't attack you. Please stay polite.
For those of us that are corporately done with Chrome and Firefox, Pale Moon is a breath of fresh air and just simply works.
This is true for me as well, but that doesn't mean there is no room for improvements.
I'd like you to find a forum operated by Google or Mozilla that gets the personal attention and response to issue like we are fortunate to receive here from the coding-geniuses that create and maintain Pale Moon.
I am as thankful as you for Pale Moon, its developers and this forum. This is why I am just trying to help by proposing some improvements. How is that wrong?
Since you seem to have loads of time on your hands to spend as much time as it took you to type your diatribe of opinion, why not go ahead and design your own browser.
Why does everyone on this forum expect the users to be developers? That's not true for ANY software product I know. Also, I don't have "loads of time", it's New Year's Eve and this is why I found some time to write the post. Describing it as a "diatribe" is just an insult based on the misunderstanding of what I am trying to achieve. Also it is extremely unpolite. I am betting that this post is more helpful for the project than anything you have said, because it describes some areas where still is some room for improvements.
When you're done, come back and we'll try it out and we promise to give you our opinion of your work.
If I would be a developer I would be happy to hear some opinions, but since I am not this sentence makes no sense and is just trying to undermine my credibility. If you find some FACTS in my post you want to criticize in the future, feel free to do so. Your attitude towards me is extremely inappropriate and by no means necessary, let alone helpful.

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Re: Pale Moon is doomed to fail, here is why.

Post by back2themoon » 2017-01-01, 00:34

You are asking for Pale Moon to become sth. like Waterfox, Cyberfox etc. - a browser much closer to Firefox. It would be foolish at best to do that because... these browsers already exist. I'm fairly sure Moonchild would prefer "doomed failure" than do what you propose, essentially betraying everything Pale Moon stands for. It's a web browser, not an extension/add-on hoster so asking for the frowned upon Australis to obtain add-on compatibility is completely out of place.

And anyway, most top-class extensions work perfectly fine in their latest versions and users still have a massive selection of fully working extensions to choose. Same applies to the rest of your points: over-exaggerating minor or non-existent issues like PDF and audio indicators while inviting major drawbacks like DRM. Lots of browsers already available for these kind of feature sets.
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Re: Pale Moon is doomed to fail, here is why.

Post by freefrog » 2017-01-01, 00:40

The only legitimate concerns here are 1 and 6.

As for #4, DRM, you have a myopic view of the issue. You see a browser lacking a feature but you should be seeing a browser taking a stand against the Web migrating to closed technologies. The average user will likely never understand the importance of this and time spent trying to convince them is wasted. On this matter, Palemoon provides the user with what's good for the Web not what's good for itself (ie. user adoption). What's good for the Web is what's good for the user in the long term, whether they realize this or not.
Last edited by freefrog on 2017-01-01, 00:52, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Pale Moon is doomed to fail, here is why.

Post by Moonchild » 2017-01-01, 00:46

Sun-Glasses wrote:Please understand that this is no rant, but a collection of things I believe could be improved about Pale Moon.
If it wasn't then your whole approach in writing it was wrong, including the title. "It's doomed to fail! Here's what you're doing wrong!"

In no way is it a collection of suggestions. In all ways it is a rant and very polarized opinion presented as "fact".
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Re: Pale Moon is doomed to fail, here is why.

Post by Sun-Glasses » 2017-01-01, 00:59

Moonchild has stated in the past that the recent rebase was essentially a one-time thing, and that no further rebases will be necessary in the future. I forget his exact words regarding that, but you can easily dig them up via a forum search.
Putting all the respect I have for M.C. Straver aside, he also claimed that for Pale Moon 26. At the time its inception everone here was like "no need to rebase anytime soon". Then Pale Moon 27 happened.
Moonchild has a background in IT security, Goanna has already diverged from Gecko, and Moonchild has already fixed Pale Moon specific security issues that have come up. I do not see this concern of yours as being realistic, at all.
Goanna is still Gecko, mostly. Also note that browser development devisions today have numerous talented developers testing for and fixing security problems. Sorry, I don't buy that a single person can achieve the same work numerous talented people at Apple, Google, Mozilla and Microsoft are supposed to do. Look up the release notes of Pale moon and see how backporting fixes from Firefox is always right up there. M.C. Straver fixing some issues doesn't discount us from backporting a high number(!) of fixes from Mozilla. I am sorry for having to say this, but you shpuld really read up the release notes of Pale Moon before making such a claim.
I second this. I would not want that, either.
I am still believing that this would greatly help new users. There is nothing wrong with a one-time pop-up which you can decline with one click. Being angry about something like this is whining to be honest. But if you think that's a problem for you, so be it.
Gee whiz, it's just a few clicks - click the search engine drop-down, "Manage Search Engines," "Get more search engines." My 84-year old mother can find that on her own. And no, she is certainly not tech-savvy.
And yet a one-time pop-up would be far easier. Anyway. It requires some time to find this site for most users, believe me. IF they find it at all. It could be much more intuitive overall.
I, personally, have never needed DRM to be incorporated into Pale Moon. None of the sites that I access on a regular basis require it. Considering the number of requests for it, I do see some value in someone attempting to incorporate DRM as a Pale Moon extension, but I don't even know if that's possible/feasible from a technical standpoint.
Your daily internet usage is as much representative as my daily usage case. Just acknowledge that some major sites you may not use yourself require it. There is zero benefit from not having it in the browser.
Hmmm ... I need help. Let me click on "Help" to see what happens. Here's a list, let me click on "Help" here. Oh look, a FAQ! With a link to the forum! I'm sure someone there can help me .... You don't need to be tech-savvy to find the forum and ask for help.
Yeah, clicking the help button and reading the FAQ is what I and most other people want to do all the time. Don't you realize that this is the plain contrary of intuitive. Why doesn't Pale Moon just use the Adobe Acrobat or Sumatra plug-in by default once it detects it? Why do I have to set it up manually in settings -> applications? Care to explain?
Hmmm ... I need an alternative for Firefox. Let me search on Google (firefox alternative) to see what happens. Here's a list of results, and the first item on the list is "6 Alternative Browsers Based on Mozilla Firefox." Let me click on that. Oh look, Pale Moon is #2 on that list! Again, I do not see I do not see this concern of yours as being realistic, at all.
And yet Pale Moon has a market share of just 0,04%... If it is as easy as you put it, care to explain why its market share hasn't grown tremendously so far? Hmm... What could be the reason? I mean, there are loads of disappointed Firefox users out there. Guess what? They are sticking to alternatives that are better advertised.
Gee whiz, I have never needed that. Ever. And as I recall, a member of the community has already developed an extension for exactly that. I can't vouch for exactly how well it works, but I do know it exists.
"There is an extension for that feature" is very Mozilla-like. Anyway, it should be in Pale Moon when all major browsers have it and people expect it more and more.
I'm not surprised about this at all, since I'm pretty sure that the average Linux user has a lot more knowledge about compiling programs for Linux than the average Mac user has for compiling programs for OS X, macOS or whatever Apple's operating system is called now. Building for non-Windows operating systems requires members of this community to step up, take the plunge, actively do it, and continue to support it after the fact. Even people with the requisite knowledge might not want or be able to commit to the rigors of supporting the builds that they offer to the community. And this, in turn, harkens back to my prior post here -- that actively participating in helping the developers develop is the absolute best way to ensure that this project does not and will not, as you say, fail.
I think sugis does a great job on the Mac front already but anyway. Still, it would be great if the Mac would get more attention here considering this OS far outclasses Linux in terms of actual user numbers. Having said this, again, please acknowledge that not everyone has the skills to help out even if they wanted to.
I have to shake my head in (a bad kind of) awe when I see a suggestion like this. I have yet to see any evidence that FossaMail development has ever delayed Pale Moon development. And dropping FossaMail would end up alienating/angering a whole subset of users out there that depend on that program as much as the rest of us depend on Pale Moon. One last time here, I do not see I do not see this concern of yours as being realistic, at all.
FossaMail could be kept if it doesn't require to much time. Providing a great e-mail client, however, requires time. This is why FossaMail is getting as much attention from the Pale Moon team as Thunderbird is getting from Mozilla. Almost none. It's up to the user numbers if it should be kept up if you ask me.

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Re: Pale Moon is doomed to fail, here is why.

Post by josephd » 2017-01-01, 01:04

Sun-Glasses wrote:Dear Pale Moon developers and community,....


I would like to hear some other opinions or additions to the points I made as well. Would be great to hear something from developers and community alike.

Happy New Year 2017 to all of you.
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Re: Pale Moon is doomed to fail, here is why.

Post by Sun-Glasses » 2017-01-01, 01:10

If it wasn't then your whole approach in writing it was wrong, including the title. "It's doomed to fail! Here's what you're doing wrong!"

In no way is it a collection of suggestions. In all ways it is a rant and very polarized opinion presented as "fact".
First of, I am sorry if I came of as rude. This was not my intention. But I would disagree with you regarding this post not containing facts. I mean, it contains multiple facts and I tried to keep my own opinion on DRM etc. out of the post completely. This is more of a "Look, those things are missing. They should be included if Pale Moon is to be a long-term project." kind of post. And those are just the features that are missing in my opinion. I mean, everybody misses some features and this was just a collection of what I miss or would like to see improved. Nobody is supposed to fully or partially agree here or to change anything about Pale Moon. And honestly, I think it is quite unfair to call it a "rant". After all, I didn't insult the product or anybody actively working on it. I voiced some very negative things about it, but, after all, the issues are actually there and many people working in real world scenarios would agree that not having a PDF reader or being unable to use sites like Netflix properly is not positive at all.

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