I'm working on a new E-mail client for UXP.

Discussions about applications built on our platform code that do not have a dedicated board.

Moderators: trava90, athenian200

What should the E-mail client be named?

Poll ended at 2022-05-22, 09:55

Epyrus
26
62%
Centrapost
4
10%
Hermopolis Mail
11
26%
Raphemail
0
No votes
Hermopost
1
2%
 
Total votes: 42

User avatar
athenian200
Contributing developer
Contributing developer
Posts: 559
Joined: 2018-10-28, 19:56
Location: Georgia
Contact:

Re: I'm working on a new E-mail client for UXP.

Unread post by athenian200 » 2022-05-13, 12:39

Okay, I have good news.

We have multiple possibilities for working around this now. One is the app password idea mentioned by back2themoon, another is the possibility that the API key I've created actually keeps working, and I have also managed to make a third way work. I'm kind of amused that it works given that they said these API keys were "hard coded," but take a look at this...
oauth.png
I tested this and it... actually works. Apparently it's not hard to swap out the hard-coded API keys for a user-configurable preference. Which means, anyone could request their own API key from Google and enter it into "about:config" if they really need OAuth2. I kind of like this idea, because it means I don't have to put out an API key that can be stolen or abused if I don't want to, and people can still use OAuth2 with their Google accounts if they are willing to generate their own API key.

It may not be practical, but it's a "backup plan" in case the app password way doesn't work or someone can't enable 2FA. It seems to me that this is roughly equivalent to the app password way in terms of user experience, though, in that the user has to jump through hoops to set it up with Google in advance but then can use the application normally.
"There are two sentences inscribed upon the Ancient oracle... 'Know thyself' and 'Nothing too much'; and upon these all other precepts depend." -- Plutarch

User avatar
TheRealMaestro
Fanatic
Fanatic
Posts: 116
Joined: 2019-08-13, 00:30
Location: Cosy Island

Re: I'm working on a new E-mail client for UXP.

Unread post by TheRealMaestro » 2022-05-13, 23:20

Would Hermopolis plan to support language packs? I recall that Interlink’s chief despised others using computers in dialects beside US English and had hindered them on purpose.
Also, is there anything that this project could gain from Claws Mail or SeaMonkey’s mail client’s programming? I am asking this based on the clients’ outward appearances only, but I should think that they must meet the same challenge in Gmail’s stubbornness and that they share XUL heritage with us.
Browser: Pale Moon (Pusser’s repository for Debian)
Operating System: Linux Mint Debian Edition 4 (amd64)
Hardware: HP Pavilion DV6-7010 (1400 MHz, 6 GB)

User avatar
athenian200
Contributing developer
Contributing developer
Posts: 559
Joined: 2018-10-28, 19:56
Location: Georgia
Contact:

Re: I'm working on a new E-mail client for UXP.

Unread post by athenian200 » 2022-05-14, 01:38

TheRealMaestro wrote:
2022-05-13, 23:20
Would Hermopolis plan to support language packs? I recall that Interlink’s chief despised others using computers in dialects beside US English and had hindered them on purpose.
Also, is there anything that this project could gain from Claws Mail or SeaMonkey’s mail client’s programming? I am asking this based on the clients’ outward appearances only, but I should think that they must meet the same challenge in Gmail’s stubbornness and that they share XUL heritage with us.
Of course, I won't rip out the functionality for langpacks. Wouldn't that go against the very spirit of a tool intended for communication, especially if the deity connected to the codename is also associated with travel? LOL. I had planned to make that part of the original announcement, but I worried that might seem like a pointless dig at Interlink and kind of got in a hurry when writing the OP when I saw people were already talking about a UXP E-mail client replacement.

I don't see any good reason to stop people from trying to use Thunderbird's old langpacks. There might be some subtle incompatibilities if the GUI ends up changing a lot or having different strings, obviously, but I think ripping out the plumbing for them and making it so that people can't make their own langpacks even if they WANTED to is a bit extreme. In fairness, I get why that decision was made... there was a desire to be able to change the GUI around and modify strings without worrying about impact on other languages, and the author didn't know any other languages. I'm mostly choosing differently because I don't like the idea of closing off or removing functionality based only on what I can do personally rather than letting people decide what, if anything, they want to do with it.

The problem is... well, I don't really know that many living languages. I studied Latin in High School, I am familiar with ancient Greek somewhat, and I have been studying Japanese off and on. In theory, I could probably translate the interface into Latin and create a langpack that maybe Catholic priests and people who enjoy reading older scientific texts from medieval Europe would enjoy. So langpacks will be possible, but I won't be able to create or maintain any useful ones myself. Possibly I could maintain a Spanish langpack if I push myself, since it's fairly close to Latin and it's a common enough language where I live that I could hire tutors cheap, socialize with people who know it, etc.

I will definitely be looking at other Thunderbird forks based on similar code to see if there is anything I can gain from them, and I appreciate those suggestions. :) I'll be bookmarking them so I can check on what they have to offer code-wise.
"There are two sentences inscribed upon the Ancient oracle... 'Know thyself' and 'Nothing too much'; and upon these all other precepts depend." -- Plutarch

User avatar
back2themoon
Moon Magic practitioner
Moon Magic practitioner
Posts: 2031
Joined: 2012-08-19, 20:32

Re: I'm working on a new E-mail client for UXP.

Unread post by back2themoon » 2022-05-14, 10:48

I'm having a hard time believing that paid desktop clients like Mailbird, Postbox etc. with OAuth2 support, all submit Google the requested $4,500 - $75,000 (or more) annual fee. Surely there must be a cheaper way (no cost, even), or are they really that profitable?

In any case, I agree that Google sucks and a nice discussion thread about alternative E-mail providers is probably in order.
Google wrote:"Every app that requests access to restricted scope Google user´s data and has the ability to access data from or through a third party server is required to go through a security assessment from Google empanelled security assessors. This assessment helps keep Google users´ data safe by verifying that all apps that access Google user data demonstrate capability in handling data securely and deleting user data upon user request. In order to maintain access to restricted scopes, the app will need to undergo this security assessment on an annual basis, this process is called the security reassessment, also known as annual recertification. The cost of the assessment typically varies between $10,000 -$75,000 (or more) depending on the size and complexity of the application; smaller applications may see costs at a lower threshold of $4,500. This fee may be required whether or not your app passes the assessment and will be payable by the developer. We expect that fees will include a remediation assessment if needed."

User avatar
Moonchild
Pale Moon guru
Pale Moon guru
Posts: 31996
Joined: 2011-08-28, 17:27
Location: Tranås, SE
Contact:

Re: I'm working on a new E-mail client for UXP.

Unread post by Moonchild » 2022-05-14, 11:34

Google wrote: "Every app that requests access to restricted scope Google user´s data and has the ability to access data from or through a third party server is required to go through a security assessment from Google empanelled security assessors. [...]"
Just to respond to this: A mail client authenticating to a Google server for the sole purpose of retrieving/sending mail that is stored in the client is not the same as "accessing restricted scope Google user's data". The latter would be all the (other) data Google has on users in their profile. A mail client is not accessing Google user profile data, AFAIK. It won't request location history, browsing history, facial recognition, docs, drive, or anything else under the Google single-sign-on umbrella. What this aims to address is applications collecting data or gaining user data permission outside of the scope of the application itself by using OAuth2 "to log in", i.e. using a Google login to log into their operated service, similar to what other SSO solutions do.
"You will observe with concern how long a useful truth may be known and exist before it is generally received and practiced on." -- Benjamin Franklin
"Compromise and collaboration lie at the heart of all great endeavours" -- Kassandra
Image

User avatar
back2themoon
Moon Magic practitioner
Moon Magic practitioner
Posts: 2031
Joined: 2012-08-19, 20:32

Re: I'm working on a new E-mail client for UXP.

Unread post by back2themoon » 2022-05-14, 11:45

That's what the Pegasus Mail developer came up against: http://www.pmail.com/newsflash.htm

Perhaps he got disappointed too quickly and further investigation is required? I don't know. $4,500 - $75,000 (or more) per year sounds ridiculous, even for Google.

User avatar
Moonchild
Pale Moon guru
Pale Moon guru
Posts: 31996
Joined: 2011-08-28, 17:27
Location: Tranås, SE
Contact:

Re: I'm working on a new E-mail client for UXP.

Unread post by Moonchild » 2022-05-14, 12:22

I don't know. I'm just going by what the text says, there.
Either way there should be options available to work around whatever interpretation Google gives to it for those people who want to continue using it.
"You will observe with concern how long a useful truth may be known and exist before it is generally received and practiced on." -- Benjamin Franklin
"Compromise and collaboration lie at the heart of all great endeavours" -- Kassandra
Image

User avatar
athenian200
Contributing developer
Contributing developer
Posts: 559
Joined: 2018-10-28, 19:56
Location: Georgia
Contact:

Re: I'm working on a new E-mail client for UXP.

Unread post by athenian200 » 2022-05-14, 12:55

This website I found the other night is the one that contains the suggestion for people to get their own OAuth2 key. It's one called Total Access E-mailer or something. They are a commercial product that tightly integrates with Microsoft Access, and they seem to be saying that Google told them that they couldn't get an OAuth2 key for their uses for any amount of money, so it was the only option, and their customers would have to generate their own internal-use OAuth2 API keys for such a use. That's why I'm pretty sure that if all else fails, we can do what they are doing. And their application is much more demanding, sending e-mail on behalf of other users. My application would only be authenticating a single user to access their own e-mail.

https://support.fmsinc.com/hc/en-us/art ... ecure-Apps
"There are two sentences inscribed upon the Ancient oracle... 'Know thyself' and 'Nothing too much'; and upon these all other precepts depend." -- Plutarch

User avatar
Moonchild
Pale Moon guru
Pale Moon guru
Posts: 31996
Joined: 2011-08-28, 17:27
Location: Tranås, SE
Contact:

Re: I'm working on a new E-mail client for UXP.

Unread post by Moonchild » 2022-05-14, 15:32

athenian200 wrote:
2022-05-14, 12:55
Google told them that they couldn't get an OAuth2 key for their uses for any amount of money
We've seen Google do that before. See also: EME (video DRM).
To me those kinds of practices are the most blatant examples of anti-competitive behaviour out there. Create a service or protocol, call it "open" and claim it is "available to every implementer", but then be a gatekeeper to only allow their own clients (or funded partners) access to the services or protocols in question in practice.
"You will observe with concern how long a useful truth may be known and exist before it is generally received and practiced on." -- Benjamin Franklin
"Compromise and collaboration lie at the heart of all great endeavours" -- Kassandra
Image

User avatar
athenian200
Contributing developer
Contributing developer
Posts: 559
Joined: 2018-10-28, 19:56
Location: Georgia
Contact:

Re: I'm working on a new E-mail client for UXP.

Unread post by athenian200 » 2022-05-15, 10:01

So, I've added a poll to the thread about what the E-mail client should be named. I came up with five different names. If you want to make a different suggestion, you should probably check that it's legally safe to use (no technology-related companies can be using the same name), and also that it's not likely to be seen as offensive.
"There are two sentences inscribed upon the Ancient oracle... 'Know thyself' and 'Nothing too much'; and upon these all other precepts depend." -- Plutarch

distantpluto
Moonbather
Moonbather
Posts: 53
Joined: 2015-12-17, 18:28
Location: UK

Re: I'm working on a new E-mail client for UXP.

Unread post by distantpluto » 2022-05-15, 12:51

I'm always away when interesting stuff happens! Anyway...

I love the idea of this client. I'm currently using Interlink but that's clearly not viable long term. I have no preference for the name, please call it whatever you like.

And most importantly, please don't get hung up on Google. I have no Google email myself and would encourage everyone to move away from Google as much as possible. Email is an easy move away.

Thank you.

User avatar
athenian200
Contributing developer
Contributing developer
Posts: 559
Joined: 2018-10-28, 19:56
Location: Georgia
Contact:

Re: I'm working on a new E-mail client for UXP.

Unread post by athenian200 » 2022-05-15, 13:01

distantpluto wrote:
2022-05-15, 12:51
I'm always away when interesting stuff happens! Anyway...

I love the idea of this client. I'm currently using Interlink but that's clearly not viable long term. I have no preference for the name, please call it whatever you like.

And most importantly, please don't get hung up on Google. I have no Google email myself and would encourage everyone to move away from Google as much as possible. Email is an easy move away.

Thank you.
The Google thing is seemingly turning out to be a non-issue for the moment. I actually have got more evidence showing that my idea of using OAuth2 by having users generate their own API token is (for better or worse) becoming a fairly standard approach among those caught between the more purist/idealistic dismissal of OAuth2, and the practical difficulties of getting Google to treat you as a "legitimate" application. Even though it's being forced on me by an external circumstance, I kinda like the idea of it simply being an "internal" application for every user... almost as if by using my application (particularly with Gmail), you already know you are joining in the development/testing process because of what you have to do to use it.

https://www.claws-mail.org/faq/index.php/Oauth2

Yeah, I'm fine with all the names on the list. It looks like Raphael and Centrapost are doing much better than the other suggestions in the poll, though, so I'm thinking one of them will be the final name.
"There are two sentences inscribed upon the Ancient oracle... 'Know thyself' and 'Nothing too much'; and upon these all other precepts depend." -- Plutarch

User avatar
mintoyatsu
Hobby Astronomer
Hobby Astronomer
Posts: 19
Joined: 2019-03-02, 08:44

Re: I'm working on a new E-mail client for UXP.

Unread post by mintoyatsu » 2022-05-15, 14:34

I made some mockup icons. Let me know what you think!
branding.png
branding.png (20.46 KiB) Viewed 461 times

User avatar
athenian200
Contributing developer
Contributing developer
Posts: 559
Joined: 2018-10-28, 19:56
Location: Georgia
Contact:

Re: I'm working on a new E-mail client for UXP.

Unread post by athenian200 » 2022-05-15, 14:49

mintoyatsu wrote:
2022-05-15, 14:34
I made some mockup icons. Let me know what you think!
Those are not bad at all! :) I'm actually pretty grateful for anything offered up in terms of icons/branding to replace the Earlybird branding. My Achilles' heel is the fact that I have zero artistic talent and anything I made would look like it was drawn by a 5-year old. Which means I was actually considering replacing all the Earlybird graphics with some kind of simple text/symbols on a white background and using that as placeholder graphics until I could commission an artist. But if people can offer something better than that like you did, that step won't be needed.
"There are two sentences inscribed upon the Ancient oracle... 'Know thyself' and 'Nothing too much'; and upon these all other precepts depend." -- Plutarch

User avatar
mintoyatsu
Hobby Astronomer
Hobby Astronomer
Posts: 19
Joined: 2019-03-02, 08:44

Re: I'm working on a new E-mail client for UXP.

Unread post by mintoyatsu » 2022-05-15, 15:45

athenian200 wrote:
2022-05-15, 14:49
Those are not bad at all! :) I'm actually pretty grateful for anything offered up in terms of icons/branding to replace the Earlybird branding. My Achilles' heel is the fact that I have zero artistic talent and anything I made would look like it was drawn by a 5-year old. Which means I was actually considering replacing all the Earlybird graphics with some kind of simple text/symbols on a white background and using that as placeholder graphics until I could commission an artist. But if people can offer something better than that like you did, that step won't be needed.
Thank you! I went ahead and polished these a little more by adding a small outline so it's more visible on pure-white backgrounds. I've attached a zip with all the files including PNGs for 128x, 48x, 32x, and 16x as well as a version in the Windows icon format. There are no SVGs as each icon was made by hand in GIMP, but the source files are there with all the layers, so theoretically a SVG version could be created. Use and modify these however you wish, athenian.
branding_2.png
branding_2.png (23.86 KiB) Viewed 387 times
Attachments
mailnews_branding.zip
(84.5 KiB) Downloaded 4 times

User avatar
back2themoon
Moon Magic practitioner
Moon Magic practitioner
Posts: 2031
Joined: 2012-08-19, 20:32

Re: I'm working on a new E-mail client for UXP.

Unread post by back2themoon » 2022-05-15, 18:07

I preferred your original Hermopolis to be honest. Seems it was removed because someone disliked the "pagan idol connection", couple of thousand years later? :roll:

Anyway, your choice.

User avatar
smithy
Apollo supporter
Apollo supporter
Posts: 46
Joined: 2020-07-02, 11:44

Re: I'm working on a new E-mail client for UXP.

Unread post by smithy » 2022-05-15, 18:53

back2themoon wrote:
2022-05-15, 18:07
I preferred your original Hermopolis to be honest.
Agreed. By far and away the best so far.
"If you always do what you always did, you’ll always get what you always got."
Einstein

User avatar
andyprough
Fanatic
Fanatic
Posts: 177
Joined: 2020-05-31, 04:33

Re: I'm working on a new E-mail client for UXP.

Unread post by andyprough » 2022-05-15, 19:14

back2themoon wrote:
2022-05-15, 18:07
I preferred your original Hermopolis to be honest. Seems it was removed because someone disliked the "pagan idol connection", couple of thousand years later? :roll:

Anyway, your choice.
Agreed, I prefer Hermopolis over the others. If anyone wants my theological position on such things feel free to PM me, I won't subvert this into a thread on Christian views of ancient god names and their power or lack thereof. Suffice it to say you'll have a very hard time finding any Christians who call the first planet anything but Mercury, or who refuse to buy their moms flowers because the symbol of the FTD is Hermes.
Pale Moon tarball and self-compiled versions on Libre-antiX GNU/Linux respin, 32-bit and 64-bit.

User avatar
Nigaikaze
Board Warrior
Board Warrior
Posts: 1186
Joined: 2014-02-02, 22:15
Location: Chicagoland

Re: I'm working on a new E-mail client for UXP.

Unread post by Nigaikaze » 2022-05-15, 21:45

back2themoon wrote:
2022-05-15, 18:07
I preferred your original Hermopolis to be honest.
smithy wrote:
2022-05-15, 18:53
Agreed. By far and away the best so far.
andyprough wrote:
2022-05-15, 19:14
Agreed, I prefer Hermopolis over the others.
Agreed as well, adding my voice to the choir.
Nichi nichi kore ko jitsu = Every day is a good day.

User avatar
Utnapishtim
Fanatic
Fanatic
Posts: 132
Joined: 2018-07-12, 02:42

Re: I'm working on a new E-mail client for UXP.

Unread post by Utnapishtim » 2022-05-15, 23:41

Nigaikaze wrote:
2022-05-15, 21:45
Agreed as well, adding my voice to the choir.
Count me in as well.
I live in a 90%+ Christian country, and if we can use Asclepius's staff on pharmacies and ambulance vehicles, I personally don't have a problem with using Hermes as a symbol of communication, and
Hermopolis sounds really nice too, much better than the other ideas.

(edit: spoilered my own opinion re: religion)

Post Reply