(Tangent alert) Why does modern Firefox suck so much?

[ownedbywuigi]

Recently had to use and compile modern Firefox, and it is an experience straight from hell.

Off-topic:
Whoever thought it was a good idea to shove rust into Firefox seriously needs a mental checkup.

For one, why does it take 3 hours to compile, whereas UXP takes 20 mins? (Spoiler, most of that is just compiling Rust packages)

And it's also compiling stupid shit like WebVR, in the WINDOWS VERSION. Maybe it would make an ounce of sense if it was on Android or something similar to that, but still, WHY?

So-called "modern" web browsers are the most stupid shit I have ever seen. All a web browser needs to do is load pages, maybe a sprinkle of JavaScript, not whatever the modern web's crap is.

[Moonchild]

Several factors:

• Rust obsession (furthered by several influencers who keep pushing for Rust as a magic wand which it isn't)
• Gadgeteering
• A metric ton of affiliate stuff and "Mozilla Cloud" integration

[moonbat]

Google long ago redefined the browser as a virtual machine for remote Javascript applications as their actions show.

[ownedbywuigi]

Several factors:

• Rust obsession (furthered by several influencers who keep pushing for Rust as a magic wand which it isn't)

“Rust is memory safe” people will realise that all languages are memory safe when they learn not to program like a total buffoon.

[Moonchild]

“Rust is memory safe” people will realise that all languages are memory safe when they learn not to program like a total buffoon.

Rust isn't memory-safe. Rust devs have made multiple carve-outs because full memory-safe design conflicts with many types of program flow.
At best it "promotes memory-safe programming" by pushing for certain types/styles of code.

[athenian200]

Yeah, I agree with MC about Rust not being that much safer, especially as used in the wild with a lot of the safety features turned off.

Besides, C++ and other languages have RAII patterns already, it honestly sounds like the Rust team hopes they can somehow force bad programmers to write good code with better language design or something...

[moonbat]

I was there when Java was touted as superior to C++ due to having garbage collection. Turns out you can leak memory in Java as well by not dereferencing unneeded objects (the GC will think they're still being used and won't do its thing). And while I'm not a professional C++ programmer, I don't see why one can't write a destructor and for every memory allocation, add its corresponding deallocation there if not immediately after it loses scope within a block.

[Moonchild]

Rust goes the other direction and wants to be able to clean up things you may need to transport elsewhere making for problems when you just need to pass objects around locally. So as a result it makes no guarantees about lifetimes at all, and you end up constantly using "unsafe" carveouts for simple things. Which is why devs end up disabling "safe" use routinely and Rust's actual use for complex things is wrought with peril.

[Kand_in_Sky]

Google long ago redefined the browser as a virtual machine for remote Javascript applications as their actions show.

Yeah, this the modern web feel: Not text, pics, videos but forced sheit which tells you what you want to see.

[frostknight]

For one, why does it take 3 hours to compile, whereas UXP takes 20 mins? (Spoiler, most of that is just compiling Rust packages)

It takes me longer than that, although I din't do ./mach build -j8 or faster.

If i did, it would probably be close to that.

And given i have an i5-8250U processor, it could handle up to ./mach build -j 120 if i so desired lol.

Off-topic:
I let it go wild once and it was ./mach build -j
without a number meaning....

and anywho, my comp didn''t overheat when I did this. No matter it going all the way to 152 or something to that effect.

My point being, it depends on how badly you want to get it done with eighth gen processors and especially even newer.

I would NEVER do this with a 5th gen or slower. That is a trainwreck waiting to happen

But yeah, rust is made for buffoons to code. I don't want my high school teacher doing surgery for me, why would we want imbeciles coding for us?

This kind of thinking is bonkers... that people wouldn't just hire intelligent programmers to do the job right.

And what's scary is even our governments are falling for this dumb fad, thinking they need to switch from C to Rust, Go, etc...

The level of fail of such thinking is over 9000.

To quote a certain old meme.

[Moonchild]

In addition, Rust's crate system makes for a pretty large attack surface for supply chain attacks.

[UCyborg]

But yeah, rust is made for buffoons to code. I don't want my high school teacher doing surgery for me, why would we want imbeciles coding for us?

This kind of thinking is bonkers... that people wouldn't just hire intelligent programmers to do the job right.

Have you ever tried giving it a go yourself? I ended up doing a bunch of programmer things myself at my workplace as waiting months and years for some things to be done got old. The statistics of code changes since the date I got access to the repo are kinda funny.

Your quest after intelligent programmers, that's a tough one.

[mittorn]

And it's also compiling stupid shit like WebVR, in the WINDOWS VERSION. Maybe it would make an ounce of sense if it was on Android or something similar to that, but still, WHY?

What if i want access WebVR/WebXR content?
Android devices is not powerful to render it with enough performance, so unlike powerful desktop platforms, android webxr target is just trash.
While entire technology is questionable, it is exist and it is easy way to publish some vr environments, so user does not need install some separate software for it. Unlike Rust and other ecosystem bullshit openvr/openxr is not heavy dependency: you only need link loader, which loads icd and setups entrypoints when needed. I did not look to js part, but openvr/openxr is much less complex than webrtc

[UCyborg]

C# is the best. Change my mind, I dare you.

[athenian200]

C# is the best. Change my mind, I dare you.

I actually think C# is a little underrated if anything. Overshadowed by both Java and C++, and usually ignored by the open source community. But from what I've seen of it, it seems pretty solid and I would much rather deal with it than something like, say, Rust. I'm more used to C and C++, but I don't really have anything against C#. In my mind, it's kind of like a "better Java," as odd as that sounds to say.

[UCyborg]

From my past endeavors, C# seemed most humane. But how practical would it be to write web browser engine in it and how would it perform?

But as always, you can make custom GUI on top of Chromium without as much effort. 🙃

[ownedbywuigi]

But as always, you can make custom GUI on top of Chromium without as much effort. 🙃

Everyone just makes a custom GUI on top of Chromium and calls it a day.

Opera, Vivaldi, Brave, etc.

[Mæstro]

The Chromium forks’ GUI are indistinguishable to me from one another as well as from Chromium proper. Anything inspired by Metro, which means effectively anything of the last decade, is flat as a pancake and deadly dull. I could say the same about any ‘modern’ website with its oversized, diffuse text. The thought that others can tell the differences between them and find them outstanding enough to form clear preferences towards one or another just baffles me.

[Moonchild]

The Chromium forks’ GUI are indistinguishable to me from one another as well as from Chromium proper. Anything inspired by Metro, which means effectively anything of the last decade, is flat as a pancake and deadly dull.

This is exactly the reason I have no clear preference for a "backup browser" and tend to go with one of the major choices instead of hunting for something more specific. It all looks the same, so pick one that Just Works™ if all that matters is function, as there is no form.

[UCyborg]

Vivaldi is on the more sophisticated side as far as GUI functionality is concerned. Though it's been a while since I tried. Was surprised to see it still crammed all extension buttons on one side without possibility to move them around.

Something I wish Chromiums had; ability to disable encryption of profile data, only few forks accept --disable-encryption --disable-machine-id cmd-line parameters. I prefer having the ability to copy profile to another machine without fuss, I don't feel the need to have cookies and other things encrypted. You lose extensions too.

And native font-rendering on Windows taking ClearType parameters into account. Title bar too. Bonus points if the area below title bar and above webpage content has frame extended into client area. Windows term, extends the title bar to where the window content begins, most popular for the ability to have Aero Glass translucency in that area.

Oooh, and I remember messing with Chinese 360Chrome, the one based on Chromium 86. It has NPAPI support. Its GUI is a bit more flexible than typical Chromium. Not on Vivaldi level (quite far from it), but not stock either. My memories are a bit blurry, but I think it has the option for tabs below URL bar.

These would be big improvements from my POV.