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Firefox going AI, to the surprise of nobody

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Re: Firefox going AI, to the surprise of nobody

Post by Mæstro » 2025-12-18, 20:32

Moonchild wrote:
2025-12-18, 18:07
If they do that then they basically remove the reason for Firefox users, and for Mozilla to exist.
Edge and Opera users have remained loyal, even after these browsers abandoned their own engines for Blink. In Edge’s case, it was a clear boon. While Mozilla’s deeper, original reason to exist would be lost, the organisation could continue to justify itself to remaining users. It is just what happened with XUL and Quantum in 2017, on a larger scale. :coffee:
andyprough wrote:
2025-12-18, 18:57
Pale Chrome anyone?
Because Chromium forks tend to name themselves after chemical elements, I would suggest Argentum, for silver is traditionally associated with the moon. Otter suggests that a current Chromium fork need not possess hideous UI. Perhaps we could even work PPAPI (I think?) support back in. ;)
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Re: Firefox going AI, to the surprise of nobody

Post by Frugal » 2025-12-18, 23:31

I reckoned Maestro's suggestion a couple of days ago about making an official Pale Moon statement categorically rejecting any future inclusion of AI in Pale Moon, was an excellent one. Had that been done, maybe this article, published this evening, would have covered Pale Moon, not just Waterfox ..

https://www.theregister.com/2025/12/18/firefox_no_ai_alternative_waterfox/

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Re: Firefox going AI, to the surprise of nobody

Post by Night Wing » 2025-12-19, 00:51

@ Frugal

Thanks for posting the link to the article. Since I use linux Waterfox as my backup browser to linux Pale Moon in the distros of MX Linux and Debian, both with Xfce, the article was a "sight for sore eyes". And these particular remarks in the article caught my eye.

For Linux folks using desktops with a global menu bar, such as Xfce, KDE Plasma, and Unity, then Waterfox still works with it – unlike Firefox itself.
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Re: Firefox going AI, to the surprise of nobody

Post by Mæstro » 2025-12-19, 17:39

My thanks to Moonchild for heeding my advice! Acknowledging that the stochastic parrot is indeed stochastic is a nice touch.
Mozilla has felt cold enough reception to concede:
Mozilla wrote:All AI features will also be opt-in. I think there are some gray areas in what 'opt-in' means to different people (e.g. is a new toolbar button opt-in?), but the kill switch will absolutely remove all that stuff, and never show it in future. That's unambiguous[.]
While Mozilla continues to bloat its browser with needless features which ought to be delegated to extensions if they should exist at all, which e-plagiarism should not, I think we may count this as the best victory we could hope of our wayward cousin.
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Re: Firefox going AI, to the surprise of nobody

Post by UCyborg » 2025-12-19, 21:25

Moonchild wrote:
2025-12-18, 16:10
Not even that. By shoving Chrome-isms into Firefox it regularly becomes heavier than Blink. And then there's the Rust-obsession.
They say how much lesser nightmare Rust is compared to C++. Magisk's (that thingie involved in rooting Android smartphones) recent changelogs are all Rust this and Rust that. Maybe today's developers are more rusty than older generations. :P

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Re: Firefox going AI, to the surprise of nobody

Post by Mæstro » 2025-12-19, 21:27

Our about:mozilla used to quip about Rust. The sincere memoriam which is there in its stead now is superior, but that does not mean we cannot joke about corroding web development elsewhere.
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Re: Firefox going AI, to the surprise of nobody

Post by moonbat » 2025-12-20, 01:09

Mæstro wrote:
2025-12-19, 17:39
wayward cousin.
More like drunk Grandpa.
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Re: Firefox going AI, to the surprise of nobody

Post by Gemmaugr » 2025-12-20, 09:11

It's quite ironic that all the ads I've seen from EthicalAds have been about AI i various programs/settings. Especially after the No AI in Pale Moon stance. It's true that it isn't in Pale Moon, and I don't begrudge including ethical ads. It's just.. Ironic.

As an aside, I've been trying to find the comment where Moonchild states how many users Pale Moon has, but the search often fails me. I've tried many different words and wordings, to no avail. Anyone have it on hand or know a little bit more specifically where it could be located?

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Re: Firefox going AI, to the surprise of nobody

Post by Moonchild » 2025-12-20, 09:46

Gemmaugr wrote:
2025-12-20, 09:11
It's quite ironic that all the ads I've seen from EthicalAds have been about AI i various programs/settings.
We've got a relatively low fill rate yet, so only the advertisers trying to go as hard and fast as possible will be at the forefront yet. And of course those are part of the AI bubble trying to push as fast as they can while "AI" is a hot topic. Yes, the irony didn't escape me either :) But the fact Pale Moon won't be doing AI stuff doesn't mean that community members might not be interested in it anyway for other things than web browsing.
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Re: Firefox going AI, to the surprise of nobody

Post by Potkeny » 2025-12-20, 09:58

I got an LLM ad first, then a "Donate to Pale Moon".. I clicked that to check where it goes, and since then I only see the PM one :D

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Re: Firefox going AI, to the surprise of nobody

Post by laki2 » 2025-12-21, 22:28

How about they use their (Google's) money to improve their browser by making it faster, take up less memory, and be overall less of a pain to use? Or is that too much to ask from Cuckzilla?

It is pretty clear that the few developers developing the great browsers known as Pale Moon and Basilisk have been making more advancements than the multimillion dollar Mozilla. :lol: :clap:

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Re: Firefox going AI, to the surprise of nobody

Post by Octopuss » 2025-12-22, 08:10

What on earth is AI in an browser supposed to do anyway?
Now I need a new secondary browser, that's just great. FML! Is there any unofficial, trusted Firefox variant with just shit features stripped down but otherwise no funky stuff? I could use that.

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Re: Firefox going AI, to the surprise of nobody

Post by Night Wing » 2025-12-22, 09:55

LuftWafflePilot wrote:
2025-12-22, 08:10
Now I need a new secondary browser, that's just great. FML! Is there any unofficial, trusted Firefox variant with just shit features stripped down but otherwise no funky stuff? I could use that.
My backup browser to linux Pale Moon is linux Waterfox. Waterfox contains no AI "stuff". Waterfox is also available for the Windows operating system. You can find it on the pages at the links below.

https://www.waterfox.com/

https://www.waterfox.com/download/
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Re: Firefox going AI, to the surprise of nobody

Post by Gemmaugr » 2025-12-22, 10:03

LuftWafflePilot wrote:
2025-12-22, 08:10
What on earth is AI in an browser supposed to do anyway?
Now I need a new secondary browser, that's just great. FML! Is there any unofficial, trusted Firefox variant with just shit features stripped down but otherwise no funky stuff? I could use that.
https://en.linuxadictos.com/Waterfox-vs ... to-AI.html

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Re: Firefox going AI, to the surprise of nobody

Post by Mæstro » 2025-12-22, 12:15

Add another voice for Waterfox as browser of last resort here. Until a year and a day ago, I had a friend who used LibreWolf, but I disliked it even before that friendship dramatically ruptured. LibreWolf discourages the user from adapting it to meet his needs, in the name of ‘privacy’. Until recently, it was even forbidden to change the browser’s locale or desired language to anything but US English. As we all know, only Yanks need or deserve privacy online. The rest of us are all terrorists, communists, ‘woke’ or whatever it is this week.
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Re: Firefox going AI, to the surprise of nobody

Post by jarsealer » 2025-12-22, 12:56

There's also Waterfox classic https://classic.waterfox.net. The UI (Australum?) is similar to Basilisk, supports XUL extensions, but has more preferences and setting toggles.

It's different from Waterfox which is based on FF ESR versions. If I'm correct it's not the same as UXP which PM is based on, but it's similar since it forked from an older version of Gecko.
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Re: Firefox going AI, to the surprise of nobody

Post by Mæstro » 2025-12-22, 13:25

Waterfox Classic ceased development three years ago. This is part of a general trend for most XUL-based browsers outside UXP: they see themselves as fighting an inevitably lost battle, doomed to surrender at some point. The prophecy fulfils itself, of course. My artist friend, if I recall correctly, moved from Waterfox Classic to Waterfox Quantum when this came to affect him personally.
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Re: Firefox going AI, to the surprise of nobody

Post by jobbautista9 » 2025-12-22, 13:27

Waterfox Classic's last update was in November 2022 so I wouldn't recommend daily-driving it as your primary browser. It is actually old and insecure; with e10s enabled by default you would be exposing yourself to more risk of known security vulnerabilities they haven't patched.
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Re: Firefox going AI, to the surprise of nobody

Post by Night Wing » 2025-12-22, 13:35

Mæstro wrote:
2025-12-22, 12:15
. Until a year and a day ago, I had a friend who used LibreWolf, but I disliked it even before that friendship dramatically ruptured. LibreWolf discourages the user from adapting it to meet his needs, in the name of ‘privacy’.
I used LibreWolf for a month, but I had to quit using it because it did not render one of my three email accounts, Hotmail, properly. When using LibreWolf for Hotmail, Hotmail did not like LW and gave me something called "Hotmail Lite" which was absolutely useless since it would not show all of my created folders.

And the last time I checked my Hotmail email account with Pale Moon, Hotmail did not like it either. I had a missing scrollbar to the right of all of my HM folders. So for Hotmail I use Waterfox and occasionally Firefox.
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Re: Firefox going AI, to the surprise of nobody

Post by Mæstro » 2025-12-22, 13:41

The LLM discussion in another thread probably belongs here.
andyprough wrote:
2025-12-22, 00:16
I'm old enough to remember when there was a global concern about reducing carbon emissions. But now, we as a society have become enlightened enough to realize that grandma needs AI in her solitaire game and toddlers need their own personalized AI nanny companions. So I guess it's "burn baby burn" again. Good times.
I misread that as ‘burn baby bum’, which also fits. :lol:

The conceptual divide between Generations Y and Z, in my opinion, is whether one can clearly recall living in a world before smartphones became ubiquitous. I can, but friends just a few years younger than me cannot, one of the reasons I feel closer to my elders than my juniors the same absolute time apart. Smartphones have taken on the world in storm and are evidently warping culture, society and politics wherever they are found, making them a better milestone than events specific to a given country. (Historians centuries hence will only care about who was born in the second or third millennium AD. But this agrees with my boundary, in my experience.) It would seem the coronavirus left little long-term effect. Even the health ministry’s posters last year mentioned the coronavirus vaccine as an afterthought while encouraging the influenza one, and this year, the coronavirus has been omitted entirely. Because a generation tends to be 16–18 years, I think the boundary between Generations Z and A, once the dust has settled, will be whether one can recall living in a world before LLM and text-to-media software infested culture, just as smartphones did a generation before.
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