Mozillians and the Cult of Personality

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Moonchild
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Mozillians and the Cult of Personality

Unread post by Moonchild » 2025-05-31, 10:00

I apologize if this is long-winded and if you aren't planning on reading this entirely and with attention for whatever reason, I kindly ask you come back later when you have more time to do so. Please don't TL;DR this or just skim over it, or you may not understand at all what I'm trying to express (it's a bit complicated, psychologically).

For many, many years I've never understood the zealousness with which fans of Firefox have relentlessly chased, accused, attacked and demeaned this project and the Pale Moon browser. But I think I got a handle on this today a bit better. It has to do with today's Cult of Personality.
With that I mean people identifying personally with a business or brand or product because they agree with them on a few issues. They chose to buy a product or use something or subscribe to a service because they agreed with the factors that made them make that choice and will from that point forward make excuses for that business or brand or product.

However, from an outside viewpoint, that's not an acceptable reason to give that business or brand a free pass when they do stupid things, and it shouldn't be for the people who make these excuses. So why does that happen anyway? After all, you're allowed to use something, subscribe to a service, etc. while at the same time pointing out "here's where you fucked up" or "didn't fulfil the promise you made to me".
I think people in this day and age don't do that anymore because they associate their identity with the person, or brand, or business they look up to.

So, my approach to these people has been wrong because I would talk about what Mozilla did. I did not like the way Mozilla treated their users. I didn't like that there were design defects in Firefox (e.g. UI choices) and that they would not address that and erode user choice in the matter. And when I would interact with Mozillians I would generally get very aggressive responses (with plenty choice words) when pointing out obvious things in the browser they were using and how Mozilla had changed things leading to objectively worse experiences. I did not understand this resistance or the blind ignoring of what was right in front of their faces. I was considered a PoS for even bringing it up.
That was really confusing to me; they would use a product that has clear design defects. What was I advocating for? That Mozilla improve their product, give users a better experience so I didn't have to fight for sanity in the browser space.

If I got what I wanted in that respect, as a result of demonstrating objective evidence of the browser losing essential functionality and user-friendliness, then Firefox could have been so much better of a product in the end, instead of this slowly degrading freewheeling experiment that it looks like more and more. But people were just pissed off at me, instead -- and I didn't understand that. Until today, really. It's that personal identification with Firefox and Mozilla that drives these emotions and drives this relentless leaning against what I created as an alternative.
When it comes to a person giving me a hard time, it goes something like this:
  1. That person chose to use Firefox.
  2. They made this conscious choice at the time based on their research and personality type, and how (of the choices) it fit their needs best.
  3. They accepted the brand, culture, and anything that goes into it to become a "Mozillian" (including the marketing like their "Manifest" and that Firefox has these high altruistic motives to do what they do)
  4. I was speaking bad of something Mozilla did.
Therefore, they didn't see me speaking bad of Mozilla, but rather they saw me speaking bad of their choices. Of their decisions. Of their identity as a person.
I was annoyed at Mozilla because they screwed over their product and therefore the user. But the way the user interpreted it was that I didn't like them, personally, leading to such a strong and aggressive response towards Pale Moon and me as a person. I didn't understand that, as I've never identified with anything that way, myself. "Outside of my box", so to say.
If I had, I would have been able to make sure people better understood where I was coming from, and that they could feel it was not a personal issue I had with any of the Firefox users, just with the direction Mozilla was taking it in. I know I've said this plenty of times but probably not clearly or convincingly enough since I never thought about this being so directly personal to Firefox users, or rather not understanding why (beyond some form of zealousness or cult-like adherence). The strife created was not easily dismissed afterwards, of course, since the community culture had created animosity, as clearly expressed through MozillaZine and later r/palemoon.
In that different world, where I had understood this way back when and been able to express it, thousands of people would also not have been on these fora, running around talking shit about my project, sometimes blatantly making stuff up, or what a piece of garbage I was as a person. While the thing I was advocating for the entire time was a more usable and customizable version of Firefox, nothing else...

I guess what I'm trying to say to anyone who's still reading is this: You can like a product or business or brand, you can agree with what they say, you can feel connected with their world view or vision and still say that something they did was pretty dumb and they shouldn't have. You don't have to go all in on everything. It's never reciprocal from the business or brand side, anyway! You don't have to, and should not, hang your entire identity and personality on something you like, use or agree with. Don't be afraid to remain critical no matter how much you like something (and I mean that in every aspect of your life) and don't feel obligated to go out of your way to defend (to a fault) something that isn't actually yours, personally.

I hope this makes some sense to y'all. If not, just chalk it up to "old man screams at clouds" or something. :P

Thanks for reading.
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Re: Mozillians and the Cult of Personality

Unread post by back2themoon » 2025-05-31, 13:01

Moonchild wrote:
2025-05-31, 10:00
But I think I got a handle on this today a bit better... ... and I didn't understand that. Until today, really.
Interesting post, thanks. So... did something specific happen today?

I have to agree that business/brand identification is just plain ridiculous. Often occurs to people working for that brand (still ridiculous) but that is not the case here. This is just fandom and as such, it takes away any kind of critical thinking (if available in the first place, anyway).

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Re: Mozillians and the Cult of Personality

Unread post by Moonchild » 2025-05-31, 13:32

back2themoon wrote:
2025-05-31, 13:01
Interesting post, thanks. So... did something specific happen today?
Nothing specific, just seeing more about the topic that made me think.
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Re: Mozillians and the Cult of Personality

Unread post by andyprough » 2025-05-31, 15:51

This is like how you never want to tell an iPhone or Mac user that they could get better performance for a better price along with more configuration options. How they could own a device without constantly having to make appointments at the Genius Bar to change a setting. That's a quick way to lose a friend for life.

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Re: Mozillians and the Cult of Personality

Unread post by Pelican » 2025-05-31, 21:51

Moonchild wrote:
2025-05-31, 10:00
old man screams at clouds
We all have those days.

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Re: Mozillians and the Cult of Personality

Unread post by Mæstro » 2025-05-31, 23:05

You have discovered the nature of the fanboy. My introduction had been six years ago through this informative film which discusses how some poor souls become them. I doubt they would have listened to you even if you were clear that you had no intent of attacking them personally by criticising Mozilla, and even if they grasped this. Many people believe ‘you are what you do’. Many others would feel threatened by the implications that abandoning Firefox after so long would bring, and hence by extension see your claims about Firefox as frightening them when they were hitherto content with Firefox. I have found myself in far too many unwanted chatroom debates merely by belonging in some community where my opinion, even in a subject like botany, was the minority and I expressed this dissenting opinion. It is not your fault. Thorny weeds grow everywhere online. It is easy to be pricked just by stepping out.
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Re: Mozillians and the Cult of Personality

Unread post by KlarkKentThe3rd » 2025-06-01, 21:14

All that, and add this to the pile:

modern day Corporation Worship is real.

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Re: Mozillians and the Cult of Personality

Unread post by Moonchild » 2025-06-01, 23:05

Mæstro wrote:
2025-05-31, 23:05
You have discovered the nature of the fanboy.
I do have a feeling it goes beyond that though. To me, a fanboy still allows for others to have differing opinions even though they will vigorously defend their own when discussed. They can still agree to disagree or let others be if they clearly don't share their love for whatever it is they are a fanboy of...
This "personal identification" goes further, to where even bringing up a dissenting opinion is immediate grounds for vicious personal attacks in areas that are completely irrelevant, because they feel so thoroughly and deeply hurt by the dissenting opinion it requires vindication. I called it a cult of personality for a reason, as it's much more towards what you see in religion than anything else (Klark called out "worship" for a reason there, and it's definitely something to see)...
It went much further than just not wanting to abandon Firefox, themselves; it went straight into the realm of either negative dismissal as "not serious, discourage other people from even considering it" or trying to "cordon off" Firefox and not allowing anything even remotely similar to exist, despite it being Open Source and forks being inevitable over time.
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Re: Mozillians and the Cult of Personality

Unread post by moonbat » 2025-06-02, 03:04

It's no coincidence this behavior rose along with Mozilla's switch to activism after kicking out Brendan Eich for his private support for Prop 8 in California*. The 2010s saw the decline of Gen X in the programming/hacking sphere; they were characterised by an overall anti-establishment and especially anti corporate stance (just as the original spirit of hacking used to be before criminal gangs and intelligence agencies took over) compared to the big corp worshipping, subscription service consooming generation that succeeded them.
The new generation of programmers across all spheres - corporate and open source - are like how you describe. Heavily political and activist-y, they have to advertise their stance on $CURRENT_THING no matter what, in stark contrast to the meritocratic ethos from before where your competence at programming/hacking was all that mattered. This is the crowd that has taken over Mozilla and of course they attract similar people as users. Add to it the fact that Chrome (and Windows post version 8) has been around long enough for a whole generation of adults growing up knowing nothing else and used to its stripped down, mobile first focus since they were kids. Both these factors have combined to the total shit storm that has swept across the entire software world of late.

* - as opposed to if he had actually discriminated against the gay community as CEO of Mozilla, which he never did.
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Re: Mozillians and the Cult of Personality

Unread post by Gemmaugr » 2025-06-02, 08:22

Not onerous to read at all. In fact, I quite enjoyed it, and it's something I've noticed since long ago sadly.
Most noticeable with topics like valve/steam vs GOG or sports teams for example but can be almost anything from politics (culture/government/religion) to corporations (shills) to entertainment (fanboys).
It's Identity Politics 101, and its -lite/light cousin. Making their entire identity about something external and drawing validation, belonging, and justification from it.
As soon as you start seeing the similar patterns, you see how they're essentially following the same rule-book in their actions and archetypes, although using different words.

I can only echo most other replies here (especially Moonbat) and can only add that corporations use a lot of dirty underhanded tricks to get people into this frame of mind.
Sunken Cost Fallacy (deceptive patterns, gambling, FOMO, subscriptions, seasons, leagues, Nickle & DLC, etc).
Trading choice for convenience (Enshittification, dumbed down, mainstream streamlining, lowest common denominator, Embrace Extend Extinguish/Replace, etc).
Accepting loss of control for temporary bread and circus (Vendor lock-in, DRM, Planned Obsolescence, Defective by Design, Cloud gaming, streaming, etc).

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Re: Mozillians and the Cult of Personality

Unread post by Mæstro » 2025-06-02, 11:11

I should avoid commenting on anything to do with the culture war, but this is something which keeps returning to my mind:
moonbat wrote:
2025-06-02, 03:04
Chrome (and Windows post version 8) [have] been around long enough for a whole generation of adults growing up knowing nothing else and used to its stripped down, mobile first focus since they were kids.
Even more extreme is that, a decade hence, we shall have adults whose thoughts from the cradle on have been swamped in the endless stream of noise tablets produced. I do not (yet) see them often in Germany, but I have a relative in the US whose stepson is thus addicted to his tablet. I hear about older children of apparently ordinary intellect who are unaware of the existence of files and who cannot follow even an ordinary television episode’s plot, having been reared on nothing but disjointed half-minute clips. As one of the younger users in the room, it can feel daunting that this (and, presumably, even worse yet to come) is the decadence which I must shut out, and against which I must contend, possibly for half a century or more. I sometimes worry that trends like these will produce the ‘post-PC era’ everyone expected about 2010. Where should we be then?
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