A question regarding users of windows,

[frostknight]

Those can just use ChromeOS, then.

What does chromeos do good? besides surveillance. I know what windows does well to an extent. There is a lot of windows programs.

But honestly, linux pure > chromeos for sure.

As long as its an easy one for those who need an easier interface.

Off-topic:
Btw off topic, but why is it okay for corporations to surveil people and for those same users not to infringe on copyright by getting it illegally. Especially when they likely sell lots of info that makes getting it illegally not matter in most cases. In some ways information selling gives more money than the product itself! Why should they get to break the law and not the average user. Madness... although technically is just the uploaders who get punished but still. Its frowned upon so much... that you'd think people took the corporations firstborn child and offered it as a sacrifice in the fire or something. And yet by the same token people think nothing of the privacy that corporations take as being wrong. Its like 1/10000 that actually take that seriously enough to protest by using linux and/or BSD. And 1/100 that actually find this offensive.

[suzyne]

What does chromeos do good?

I imagine costing less and with better battery life than a real laptop are attractive qualities for many? Besides wouldn't it be likely that most Chromebook buyers already own an Android mobile, and so it is a little late to start worrying about surveillance, with all their phone apps already doing that job 24/7.

[Moonchild]

What does chromeos do good?

It's catered specifically to pure web use. I thought that would be obvious? It was in response to web users who don't care about having local applications all that much.
Having a specialized O.S. for a single purpose use is always going to be better/more efficient than a generic one.

[frostknight]

I imagine costing less and with better battery life than a real laptop are attractive qualities for many? Besides wouldn't it be likely that most Chromebook buyers already own an Android mobile, and so it is a little late to start worrying about surveillance, with all their phone apps already doing that job 24/7.

Yes... but it is my belief people should still use linux to protest their bs.

The less you give to them, the better.

Also, linux is good for web use especially.

[frostknight]

It's catered specifically to pure web use. I thought that would be obvious? It was in response to web users who don't care about having local applications all that much.
Having a specialized O.S. for a single purpose use is always going to be better/more efficient than a generic one.

You could just as easily use something like linuxmint, zorinos, or other beginner friendly linux distro.

And if you use it on a new enough device, the battery life will probably be decent. Unless you doing al ot of intense stuff.

I use an ivy bridge laptop X230. It usually lasts maybe 5-7 hours depending on usage. You could probably get way more on newer tech like the X270 thinkpad for example.

That one has better battery life I have no doubt. Newer power saving abilities and its still like, a small device. I could go on more, but I don't see a point.

[athenian200]

Well, I was mostly fine with the direction of Windows up until Windows 11. I had no problem adjusting to Windows 8, never had a major issue with Windows 10 other than being annoyed by the occasional forced update, and was perfectly happy to keep using it forever.

But Windows 11 is now going to be a big problem mostly because I have a lot of computers that won't be able to run it at all, and the OS seems to try to mess with things like BitLocker and Secure Boot which will limit my ability to use more than one operating system. I'm the kind of person that prefers Windows and uses it 90% of the time, but usually has another hard drive with something like OpenIndiana on it, and maybe even a third hard drive with Linux on it. I'm going to be honest, I'm not that big on privacy... not so much because I don't think people should have it, but more because I just can't handle the stress of having to avoid so many things and deal with so many inconveniences just to have it. My main concern is avoiding Google in particular as much as possible, not because of privacy issues, but more because I hate them for other reasons and want to give them as little money as possible, even if it means putting that money in the pocket of Microsoft or some other entity.

The problem is just... I've been trying to look at Linux for years, I've tried it about once a year for the past 20 years, and it seems like I just flat don't like it as much as Windows, even with all the issues Windows has. I started looking at it when Windows XP started requiring product activation and dropping DOS mode. To me that was the beginning of Windows enshittification, so hearing all the recent complaints just sounds weird to me because they act like people haven't been sucking it up even since the "good old days." Worse, it seems like a lot of the problems you would go to Linux to get away from tend to find their way into the most popular Linux distros in one form or another, just 5 or 6 years later. Yes, you can work around this and use an obscure Linux distro that does a lot of oddball things, or even use a BSD or something, but it seems like that is ultimately very similar to trying to run Pale Moon... it might make you feel better temporarily, but you'll always encounter something you need or want that requires the stuff you're trying to avoid. And you'll find that you have to deal with something closer to mainstream Linux to get the functionality you want, even if you don't have to reboot into Windows. Just like how if you run Pale Moon, you'll always encounter a website that requires Chromium or Firefox.

It just feels like a losing battle, like, you may not want Chrome, you may not want Android, you may not want Windows, but you DO want the things that run on top of them and require them as a base. So you either do without a lot of things you desperately want in order to avoid a foundation that you dislike, or you tolerate the bad foundation and all the flaws of the underlying system in order to have something else you DO want that built on the bad foundation. And the truth is, I hate Chrome a lot more than I hate Windows, and it is actually harder to do without Chrome than Windows. So it's like, in a way I feel like I'm doing my part enough when I run a non-Chromium browser, and that I shouldn't have to inflict additional pain on myself by running something like Linux.

I hate to say it, but I feel like if Windows ever got so bad that I couldn't use it anymore, I would be forced to buy a Mac or something. I don't think I could daily drive Linux, and the alternatives like BSD just aren't there. MacOS is the only other thing that's polished enough that I feel like I could use it if I had no other choice, and it would be rough because I have zero experience with Mac.

Truth is... I'm probably going to wind up doing what most Windows 7 users did, but with Windows 10... stick with Windows 10 as long as I can, and then reluctantly upgrade to Windows 11 or 12, or whatever is current when support ends.

[Eduardolucas1]

Maybe i have too simple uses, but to me windows only serves my gaming needs which are ridiculously low. I do all my stuff on illumos.

[van p]

Yes... but it is my belief people should still use linux to protest their bs.

I briefly considered Linux, but iTunes won't run on it without some serious hacking (if then), and my printer probably won't work with it. I made a list of 29 issues that I would need to consider how to deal with under Linux. I gave up quickly--stuck with Windows.

[suzyne]

Yes... but it is my belief people should still use linux to protest their bs.

Telling people what they should do (for "the cause") is often an effective way to push them away from that something.

But I am probably too much of a lost soul because I am actively giving my money and data to Google each year with the 200GB of storage I pay for where I have years worth of documents stored in Google Docs, and as a household, Google Photos is the method of choice for creating and sharing albums of memories. I find Keep pretty handy too and am logged into Google when browsing in Pale Moon (and elsewhere).

So as long as I am willingly doing the above, and are daily using my Android tablet and phone, both of which effectively sabotage any fantasy of having privacy (not only from Google, but from all the third-party tracking built into the apps), the idea of "protesting" by running Linux on my laptop just seems out of place.

[moonbat]

it is my belief people should still use linux to protest their bs.

You're making the same mistake in this entire thread as Moonchild pointed out - Linux evangelists see it as a philosophy rather than as a tool to get things done. The average Joe end user who buys a computer preinstalled with Windows and corporate IT are the biggest purchasers of Windows licenses. Corporate IT isn't switching to Linux for employee day to day use anytime soon, and the average non techie will just go along with the enshittification that's been there since XP as athenian200 said.

To be blunt - nobody cares about privacy, security or Microsoft policies in enough numbers to adversely affect Windows' marketshare. In fact Windows itself is second or third fiddle to Azure when it comes to revenues for Microsoft. Also why it has become so user hostile and buggy in recent years; Pichai doesn't have to care and inevitably it will move to a subscription model like Office 365.

Home users will continue on with the same inertia to keep paying to use it; the number of nerds who will take the trouble to switch OSes is small and shrinking further, as younger generations grow up with smartphones that are primarily media consumption devices unlike PCs. Most of Gen Z are clueless about utterly basic workplace computer stuff.

tl;dr - you and the regulars on this forum belong to an ageing and rapidly shrinking minority of people who understand computers and technology and will take the trouble to tinker with them to get the experience they want. The vast majority of people of all ages remain passive consumers, shelling out subscription fees left and right and that isn't going to change in any way for Big Tech to see the light.

[Eduardolucas1]

it is my belief people should still use linux to protest their bs.

You're making the same mistake in this entire thread as Moonchild pointed out - Linux evangelists see it as a philosophy rather than as a tool to get things done. The average Joe end user who buys a computer preinstalled with Windows and corporate IT are the biggest purchasers of Windows licenses. Corporate IT isn't switching to Linux for employee day to day use anytime soon, and the average non techie will just go along with the enshittification that's been there since XP as athenian200 said.

To be blunt - nobody cares about privacy, security or Microsoft policies in enough numbers to adversely affect Windows' marketshare. In fact Windows itself is second or third fiddle to Azure when it comes to revenues for Microsoft. Also why it has become so user hostile and buggy in recent years; Pichai doesn't have to care and inevitably it will move to a subscription model like Office 365.

Home users will continue on with the same inertia to keep paying to use it; the number of nerds who will take the trouble to switch OSes is small and shrinking further, as younger generations grow up with smartphones that are primarily media consumption devices unlike PCs. Most of Gen Z are clueless about utterly basic workplace computer stuff.

tl;dr - you and the regulars on this forum belong to an ageing and rapidly shrinking minority of people who understand computers and technology and will take the trouble to tinker with them to get the experience they want. The vast majority of people of all ages remain passive consumers, shelling out subscription fees left and right and that isn't going to change in any way for Big Tech to see the light.

Maybe most are ageing, but i know people who are very deeply skilled for average youngsters, 18 year old, who are into alternative operating systems and even hack kernels. I'm myself 28. Its not yet dead as hope.

[frostknight]

To be blunt - nobody cares about privacy, security or Microsoft policies in enough numbers to adversely affect Windows' marketshare. In fact Windows itself is second or third fiddle to Azure when it comes to revenues for Microsoft. Also why it has become so user hostile and buggy in recent years; Pichai doesn't have to care and inevitably it will move to a subscription model like Office 365.

This is false actually and a bunch of horsecrap. A ton of people care, but with one caveat, they aren't willing to escape badly enough. They aren't willing be inconvenienced in order to protest windows' evil ways. So its really not about not caring,

Its more about people "not caring enough" to make said changes. There's a price to pay to switch to linux. Btw, if you ever need to get viruses off of windows. Load a live image and use clamwin to remove malware that windows cant. I have done this before long ago with xp. Probably still works.

[Moonchild]

This is false actually and a bunch of horsecrap. A ton of people care, but with one caveat, they aren't willing to escape badly enough. They aren't willing be inconvenienced in order to protest windows' evil ways

Talk about horsecrap.

When you're talking about security there is no real grey area. Things are either secure or they are not. Not "kinda secure" because that's not secure.
The level of "caring about security" you indicate here is just making noise to be trendy but not really caring about security. "Secure in name only" or whatever you want to call that. It's caring about the image of security, not security itself. Sure, some of those people might genuinely be interested in real security but are plainly misinformed, but in general? Users want things to Just Work™

There's a price to pay to switch to linux.

Yes, the price usually boils down to having to give up more than what most Windows people want to.
What I mean with this is that most Linux people are platform people; they are platform enthusiasts. They like to tinker with and work on Linux and what components constitute their OS. You ask them what they do in a day and a lot of that is going to centre around using Linux, doing Linux things, researching Linux or alternate distros or ways of doing things. Whereas Windows people, well, you do have some of that, sure, usually centred around nostalgia and recreating older iterations of it, but in general, Windows people aren't platform enthusiasts, they are application enthusiasts. Those applications are the centre of their daily use, and it so happens that those applications run best on Windows, or they may even not be available for Linux. In addition, those applications are often commercial pieces of software which will have a lot more invested time and expertise in them by paid-for programmers with often a result oriented approach; Linux alternatives to those applications won't have the same level of focus or plain usability, if alternatives exist to begin with. Even if there is a Linux variant maybe even published by the same company, who knows, there is still this extra hurdle of having to at least to some extent having to become more of a platform enthusiast to make the switch, as Linux will invariably throw a few wrenches and sooner or later requiring a focus on the platform and its inner workings rather than letting the user focus on their preferred applications and what they do with them. I guess it's a different way of explaining this whole "don't get in the way" thing i said earlier.

[mr tribute]

Software in general has come a long way. I wonder what is next. Some say AI. I like point and click. I like Windows because it's easy. I like Linux because it gives me a feeling of freedom. I like Android, because it's a "finished" OS (referring to phones - I don't have to tinker with it). These are all first world problems. Personally, I like these kinds of problems. They are pleasant to think about. There are other problems in life: health, financial, emotional etc that might be less pleasant to think about.

Thinking about software and using it is a bit like eating ice cream. Most flavors taste pretty good. If I were a dev I might have seen things a different way. Then you want to be productive and/or earn money. In that case there are countless problems/obstacles to overcome with each platform.

The increasing hardware and software complexity is pretty off putting. With UEFI and Secure Boot it's not that easy to install an OS (Linux) anymore. It's often better (easier) to dedicate a whole drive to an OS instead of just a partition like in the old days. Things were simpler for better or worse. I want simple and capable. Today it's often complicated and restricted.

The older I have become the more I want a finished product. Windows is good, but most software I use on Windows is third party including a few system components (start menu, task bar, updater, software repo).

I don't like the direction Microsoft has taken. But no one can challenge them in the desktop market. Macs are too expensive (at least outside US) and maybe too limited related to window management and hardware. These are common complaints. I would probably like macOS if I had time and money to spend on something I don't really need.

I don't know if software can or should make you happy or miserable. It has been one of my hobbies, but some say it's just a tool to get things done. Some say clothes are to keep you warm and other people say it's a fashion statement. It is possible to put different values on anything in life.

I like open source, but I realize that it isn't going to generate enough money to sustain itself. Ultimately the same things that affect software (Big Tech, greed, but also innovation) affect society in general. It's just life. There is always going to be some form of struggle I think. Maybe life on this planet has never been better if we take into account the global population of 7 billion. Even someone who can't read or write can use a smart phone for example. It's a good time to be alive despite all problems.

[suzyne]

Off-topic:

Thinking about software and using it is a bit like eating ice cream. Most flavors taste pretty good.

Most do taste good, but Mint Chocolate Chip ice cream (that's green) needs to be banned and anyone who disagrees with me on this, is simply wrong. I can't believe that someone ever thought that would be a sensible combination to try.

[frostknight]

Talk about horsecrap.

When you're talking about security there is no real grey area. Things are either secure or they are not. Not "kinda secure" because that's not secure.
The level of "caring about security" you indicate here is just making noise to be trendy but not really caring about security. "Secure in name only" or whatever you want to call that. It's caring about the image of security, not security itself. Sure, some of those people might genuinely be interested in real security but are plainly misinformed, but in general? Users want things to Just Work™

Some of that is true. And yes you are right that people just want things to work.

My mere objection was its not privacy they are saying no to primarily, its more about the cost of said privacy.

I wouldn't say that security is impossible to find. Privacy in full yes. It's more about, are you willing to resist giving them what they want on some level or not.

I don't doubt most people will resist linux due to the risky of not having some applications work or other unknowns. But that being said, there might be like 25% of users who dont care about privacy. For most its the cost and thats it.

Btw, for web users, I see zero gain from linux to chrome. Unless there is something I don't know. Like persay, applications that exist on chomeos that dont exist on linux.

I honestly don't know for that. You can feel free to fill me in there though.

The older I have become the more I want a finished product. Windows is good, but most software I use on Windows is third party including a few system components (start menu, task bar, updater, software repo).

Well, it depends on what you call a finished product also.

Although, I won't deny for many people windows looks polished and good.

I don't understand how they tolerate that gross fisher price background and menu, etc... but it works for a lot of people I guess.

(I know almost nothing about chromeos application support btw)

[frostknight]

I actually wanted to just point something out, even having linux on a live usb even if you want to use windows mostly is helpful. By live I mean persistent, like its installed already just a quick typo to fix.

If you need to get rid of a virus on windows but computer won't allow you to boot, you can log into a linux usb install and use clamwin and scan for the virus and then have it permanently removed.

I did this once with a windows xp computer. Others have done it for more recent versions. Just something I thought I should say before this thread dies or w/e

[suzyne]

Does Windows even get viruses that prevent it from starting up? Maybe I am a diligent and smart computer user, but during the years of using Windows 10 and Windows 7 before that, my laptops have never been infected with anything like that.

[frostknight]

Does Windows even get viruses that prevent it from starting up? Maybe I am a diligent and smart computer user, but during the years of using Windows 10 and Windows 7 before that, my laptops have never been infected with anything like that.

I have not had that happen with windows 7 or newer, although, I stopped using windows 8 sometime after windows 8.1 came out.

I believe that is a question to ask a wider windows user audience.

I definitely recall my windows 7 computer getting malware before when I had it a while back. As for if it could no longer boot, that didn't happen. Although its possible I didn't get hit with bad enough malware.

I wouldn't doubt there isn't malware that level in windows 7+ world.

I don't know if windows 10 and 11 have alot of these problems due to rolling release updates. Although, its possible more updates for 10 and 11 cause stability issues more than security issues. I cannot say.

But that being said, I do think there probably are malware types that can cause windows not to boot still lurking online or being made. Why would malicious actors stop now?

[moonbat]

I've used every version of WIndows from 3.1 to 10, turned an adult in the previous millennium (so I wasn't a dumb kid who would usually end up infecting their PC over Limewire downloaded 'Limp Bizkit.mp3.exe' or similar) and I've never had any kind of malware thanks to common sense internet usage practices that still seem to escape the majority of internet users more than 30 years after it went mainstream. Also, I discovered adblocking in '99 with AtGuard (later bought by Norton) followed by AdMuncher in 2003 so that also contributed by simply removing malware links from browsed sites.