Fedora to stop shipping Xorg in Fedora 41.

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Re: Fedora to stop shipping Xorg in Fedora 41.

Unread post by Moonchild » 2024-04-09, 20:15

athenian200 wrote:
2024-04-09, 20:11
Well, you wouldn't want that, but if the original Xorg is abandoned, Wayland doesn't work out well, and all the Linux graphics stacks wind up simulating Xorg badly, and thus a half-baked Xorg simulation becomes the common denominator between them all, guess what everyone is going to target?
Personally? I'd abandon Linux if that was my only choice. Or find a distro that would not abandon Xorg.
Why? because to me an Operating System is just that: an interface between me and my hardware. It's not a philosophy, it's not a religion. It's a working environment and a (set of) tool(s). If developer vision gets in the way of that, I will choose to use something else.
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Re: Fedora to stop shipping Xorg in Fedora 41.

Unread post by athenian200 » 2024-04-09, 20:55

Moonchild wrote:
2024-04-09, 20:15
Personally? I'd abandon Linux if that was my only choice. Or find a distro that would not abandon Xorg.
Why? because to me an Operating System is just that: an interface between me and my hardware. It's not a philosophy, it's not a religion. It's a working environment and a (set of) tool(s). If developer vision gets in the way of that, I will choose to use something else.
Yep, same here. That's why I don't use Linux myself, other than in a VM for the sake of others who use it. It's much worse now than it used to be, but there has always been this frustrating tendency to treat everything there like it's about philosophy and religion rather than about getting things done.

Like, glibc did something that broke backwards compatibility with binaries, and everyone was all like "Well, if it was open source and you could recompile, you wouldn't have that problem! Not our job to cater to closed source stuff."

Linux just seems like it will forever be chasing these changing developer ideals and never getting anywhere. There's no respect for people's past time investment, and the attitude is that you're not owed anything because everyone is a volunteer, so the moment what you depend on isn't someone else's passion project of the moment, too bad... really, the Linux way reminds me a lot of the Mozilla way the more I think about it. Everything seems so disposable on Linux...
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Re: Fedora to stop shipping Xorg in Fedora 41.

Unread post by frostknight » 2024-04-09, 23:42

Moonchild wrote:
2024-04-06, 17:20
Of course it'd be Red Hat that does this first. I'm not surprised.
Ditto 100%

They have a habit of deprecating software that people use in favor of more buggy and/or bloated software. Break backwards compatibility force adoption of services... that's their entire mantra
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Re: Fedora to stop shipping Xorg in Fedora 41.

Unread post by frostknight » 2024-04-09, 23:48

Moonchild wrote:
2024-04-09, 12:41
Wait... Wayland handles security? That makes absolutely NO sense. What a monumentally stupid idea.
This is one of your most vocal moments I agree with. But yeah, that is supposedly what the argument is.

However, this is a problem made by redhat. They kept bloating xorg over and over again and now they want to scrap it.

The problem isn't xorg, its these bloated linux frameworks, like dbus, systemd, networkmanager, pulseaudio and their libraries.

In most distros, these libraries are required to be installed regardless of if they are even required.

They make them required artificially. As in, even if there are other alternatives to make programs work without them, they still depend on them and therefore you still have to install them or a lot of stuff gets removed.

Utter insanity...

Also, screw redhat.
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Re: Fedora to stop shipping Xorg in Fedora 41.

Unread post by Pentium4User » 2024-04-10, 05:16

athenian200 wrote:
2024-04-09, 19:23
My prediction is based on what happened with how Linux went from ALSA, to PulseAudio, and now it may be doing PipeWire.
IIRC that didn't broke anything or I was too late too see it broke (I started using Linux in 2015). Ir provides and interface to ALSA for old applications and added various useful features, like letting multiple applications play on one device (e.g. playing music, but still hearing a notification beep).
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Re: Fedora to stop shipping Xorg in Fedora 41.

Unread post by mr tribute » 2024-04-11, 12:01

I don't have much time to sit in front of computers anymore. My Linux hobby is dead for better or worse. It’s a little sad, but there are other things in life. I’m happy with Windows and Android. I never really believed in the Linux “distro model” anyway, but I was/is a big fan of open source and the freedom that desktop Linux provided.

Even if I had time to continue tinker with Linux I think Wayland would be the nail in the coffin for my Linux hobby. Why deal with less freedom when my purpose with Linux was getting more freedom?

I’m sure Wayland will work and maybe even be a good experience one day, but it’s a lot of code to rewrite for dubious reasons. The more I use Android the more I appreciate what that small team at Google did in the beginning. They wrote a Linux based OS from scratch more or less, not using most of the standard components from Linux distros. Android doesn’t use systemd, xorg/wayland, pulseaudio/pipewire, dbus, glibc and gtk for example.

It just works… and is open source except for Google apps and services. The Java/Dalvik VM means good binary app portability with is essential for a large ecosystem running on different hardware. I think they nailed the “Linux distro”. It’s meant for touch devices and billions of dollars have been invested in it so it’s unfair to compare to a Linux desktop distro. It just feels complete and “finished” in a way that I think desktop Linux never will. Apples and oranges… I’m getting old and Wayland is a rewrite that is hard to swallow even if I don’t really have to care anymore.

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Re: Fedora to stop shipping Xorg in Fedora 41.

Unread post by athenian200 » 2024-04-11, 18:27

mr tribute wrote:
2024-04-11, 12:01
It just works… and is open source except for Google apps and services. The Java/Dalvik VM means good binary app portability with is essential for a large ecosystem running on different hardware. I think they nailed the “Linux distro”. It’s meant for touch devices and billions of dollars have been invested in it so it’s unfair to compare to a Linux desktop distro. It just feels complete and “finished” in a way that I think desktop Linux never will. Apples and oranges… I’m getting old and Wayland is a rewrite that is hard to swallow even if I don’t really have to care anymore.
I must sadly agree. I feel like Android or ChromeOS will ultimately be much more successful than mainstream Linux. And if I'm being honest? Despite my issues with Android and ChromeOS, they both seem to be more stable and usable than mainstream Linux in some ways. I fear the future of Linux is basically going to be Google. It was already something of a collaboration between Google and Red Hat, and I think Red Hat has made enough missteps that it could be more Google in the future.
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Re: Fedora to stop shipping Xorg in Fedora 41.

Unread post by frostknight » 2024-04-11, 20:16

Moonchild wrote:
2024-04-09, 20:15
Personally? I'd abandon Linux if that was my only choice. Or find a distro that would not abandon Xorg.
Why? because to me an Operating System is just that: an interface between me and my hardware. It's not a philosophy, it's not a religion. It's a working environment and a (set of) tool(s). If developer vision gets in the way of that, I will choose to use something else.
I know of only one distro that I trust on this level, Hyperbola.

They however will be eventually switching to a OpenBSD hard fork base. Also, they are a DIY distro even now.

Xenocara is effectively a less bloated, more secure, more stable xorg anyhow.

It is puzzling to me why redhat and google can't keep their claws out of linux. Same with Microsoft.

I am sure they don't want linux to die merely because they use it for their servers. But they also don't seem to understand they are weakening it significantly with all their crappy frameworks. I already mentioned this once, so I won't go into detail, but yeah, its just... an smh moment.

In any case, I don't think wayland fixes anything either. I think a proper fix is to make a mechanism like pledge and unveil for xorg like OpenBSD does for xenocara. Reason they don't? They hate fixing things and would rather start over endlessly. :s
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Re: Fedora to stop shipping Xorg in Fedora 41.

Unread post by frostknight » 2024-04-11, 20:25

mr tribute wrote:
2024-04-11, 12:01
The more I use Android the more I appreciate what that small team at Google did in the beginning. They wrote a Linux based OS from scratch more or less, not using most of the standard components from Linux distros. Android doesn’t use systemd, xorg/wayland, pulseaudio/pipewire, dbus, glibc and gtk for example.
Still, android looks ugly and is controlled primarily by google.

I on the other hand think the distro model can work, but only if everything doesn't look alike and isn't constantly getting broken by corporations like Google, Microsoft or especially Red Hat.

The more Red Hat and above tinker and screw around, the more distros all start to lose their differences of creativity. If linux gets destroyed before HyperbolaBSD is out, I will likely abandon linux for a BSD. Not something ugly, bloated or crappy like Microsoft, Google, Apple or Redhat type operating system or the current model they trying to force into Linux.
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Re: Fedora to stop shipping Xorg in Fedora 41.

Unread post by Moonchild » 2024-04-11, 20:57

athenian200 wrote:
2024-04-11, 18:27
I feel like Android or ChromeOS will ultimately be much more successful than mainstream Linux. And if I'm being honest? Despite my issues with Android and ChromeOS, they both seem to be more stable and usable than mainstream Linux in some ways.
You know, there is a fairly simple reason for this: The driving force behind Google distros is result-focused, not philosophy/freedom for everyone (even your great-aunt)-focused. It underlines to me what I've been saying for years already: Linux needs to become more organized and guided. Distros need to come together and compromise to make one good Linux to focus on mainstream users and average use-cases with a best-in-class UX, or it will simply never get off the ground for the majority. But that seems to fundamentally conflict with every Linux dev wanting to be uncompromising and wanting to cater to corner cases instead of focusing on what matters for the other 99% of potential users.
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Re: Fedora to stop shipping Xorg in Fedora 41.

Unread post by athenian200 » 2024-04-11, 21:16

frostknight wrote:
2024-04-11, 20:25
The more Red Hat and above tinker and screw around, the more distros all start to lose their differences of creativity. If linux gets destroyed before HyperbolaBSD is out, I will likely abandon linux for a BSD. Not something ugly, bloated or crappy like Microsoft, Google, Apple or Redhat type operating system or the current model they trying to force into Linux.
Well, let's just say there's a reason why I am maintaining an illumos version of Pale Moon, and am glad that there's now a FreeBSD version...

In my opinion, this is going to sound bad... but I feel like Linux would not be as popular as it is now without big companies like Red Hat and Google pushing it. On the other hand, it would have been smaller but remained true to the original vision.

In my view, BSD and other alternative systems are basically what Linux used to be. Niche operating systems for people who don't trust big corporations, but which aren't really user-friendly enough for the average Windows refugee. The only value of Linux now, in my opinion, is as a "gateway drug" to actual alternative operating systems. They get a taste of freedom and the FOSS philosophy, and then if they want something a bit "stronger" after realizing how watered down Linux is, they go for the "hard stuff."

I don't think people who want a genuine alternative will ever be able to rely on something that's even remotely mainstream, and unfortunately Linux is already so mainstream that it's attracting a lot of the "normie mindset" and influence from the big corporate players. I think the real rebellion will always be something niche that requires some technical skill, and won't be something the average Joe can just install on his Windows laptop without struggle. The moment I saw stuff like Ubuntu become popular, and companies like Google start to build on top of it, I knew Linux had reached a point where it was too mainstream and would start attracting the wrong kind of people. It's like, in the end, just being "not Windows" and being able to stick it to Microsoft on licensing fees isn't that special... and these days that's all mainstream Linux really seems to offer. It's just macOS for left-brained people. Sort of like what Android is to iOS.

I think long-term, there's more potential for another alternate OS to be what Linux could have been, if it's more organized and focused than Linux was... but that alternative will have its work cut out for it, and will have to deal with everything from limited hardware support, to simply the increasingly popular notion that Linux is the only viable alternative to Windows and everything else is too niche to be worth considering.
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Re: Fedora to stop shipping Xorg in Fedora 41.

Unread post by frostknight » 2024-04-12, 01:07

athenian200 wrote:
2024-04-11, 21:16
In my opinion, this is going to sound bad... but I feel like Linux would not be as popular as it is now without big companies like Red Hat and Google pushing it. On the other hand, it would have been smaller but remained true to the original vision.

In my view, BSD and other alternative systems are basically what Linux used to be. Niche operating systems for people who don't trust big corporations, but which aren't really user-friendly enough for the average Windows refugee. The only value of Linux now, in my opinion, is as a "gateway drug" to actual alternative operating systems. They get a taste of freedom and the FOSS philosophy, and then if they want something a bit "stronger" after realizing how watered down Linux is, they go for the "hard stuff."
Perhaps true on some level, but I still cannot justify GNOME's existence, or KDE4+, or XFCE4, or LXQT or Anything based on GNOME including MATE.

Such eye candy makes me think of a fisher price interface. What are we idiots? Why would need such a crappy interface? I say this about windows 98 or newer as well and many other similar likewise type interfaces. Just not needed AT ALL.

Even if that slowed down computer adoption, I would say it would be better than the current situation where all this proprietary garbage and even open source stuff looks no better than someone vomiting into a toliet.

Strong language? Yes. I cannot stand when the focus of software is on eye candy to the point where everything else is not even secondary, but fifth service customer type stuff.

Stability and Security should come before eye candy and if eye candy exists, it should be near the bottom of the list in importance otherwise you get fisher price crap.

Smh though.

People give me this feeling:

:S
And others too from this type of thinking.
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Re: Fedora to stop shipping Xorg in Fedora 41.

Unread post by Eduardolucas1 » 2024-04-25, 10:30

This answer will sound very condescending to those who see it in a light it has not the intention to cut to, so, i will try to be very cautious:

The reason windows, linux and interfaces have gone to the lowest common denominator regarding to UI design, architecture-level decisions, OS design, userland decisions and code is due to

1 - Cutting costs to improve margins and financeirization

2- Attracting a public which suffers from a rising trend of degradations in the public education system worldwide

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Re: Fedora to stop shipping Xorg in Fedora 41.

Unread post by frostknight » 2024-04-25, 10:35

Eduardolucas1 wrote:
2024-04-25, 10:30
The reason windows, linux and interfaces have gone to the lowest common denominator regarding to UI design, architecture-level decisions, OS design, userland decisions and code is due to

1 - Cutting costs to improve margins and financeirization

2- Attracting a public which suffers from a rising trend of degradations in the public education system worldwide
The 2nd one makes total sense, the first one I am not sure about.

Gnome3 and newer makes me think of windows 8/8.1

Its just annoying is all.

Windows 10 as bad as it is, at least didn't do that as much.

Unless I am mistaken... but meh forced upgrades still bad
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Re: Fedora to stop shipping Xorg in Fedora 41.

Unread post by Moonchild » 2024-04-25, 11:27

Eduardolucas1 wrote:
2024-04-25, 10:30
The reason windows, linux and interfaces have gone to the lowest common denominator regarding to UI design, architecture-level decisions, OS design, userland decisions and code is due to
1 - Cutting costs to improve margins and financeirization
2- Attracting a public which suffers from a rising trend of degradations in the public education system worldwide
I don't think (1) is a valid point. If that was the case then any non-profit O.S. would have the most awesome user experience out there since there would be no incentive to cut things out with "high maintenance cost".
I also don't think (2) is correct - public education hasn't suffered at all in many western countries, and in fact modern teaching techniques have students learn a lot more advanced topics than I was taught back when I was in school. Regardless, operating systems are used by people from all walks of life and all education levels and that has not changed in the past 10 years either. And earlier versions of Windows, for example, were easy enough to pick up for anyone back when as well.

So I have to agreeably disagree here ;)
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Re: Fedora to stop shipping Xorg in Fedora 41.

Unread post by athenian200 » 2024-04-25, 13:12

Eduardolucas1 wrote:
2024-04-25, 10:30
This answer will sound very condescending to those who see it in a light it has not the intention to cut to, so, i will try to be very cautious:

The reason windows, linux and interfaces have gone to the lowest common denominator regarding to UI design, architecture-level decisions, OS design, userland decisions and code is due to

1 - Cutting costs to improve margins and financeirization

2- Attracting a public which suffers from a rising trend of degradations in the public education system worldwide
I have a slightly different perspective on this, but I won't discount your perspective entirely. Here' s what I see as the main two problems.

1. Security is being touted as a feature rather than being recognized as something that introduces inconvenience and makes the user experience suck. Because most of the stuff that gets in the way of a hacker also gets in the way of average users. It's just a nicer sounding word for "not letting people do stuff," and people don't like it when you don't let them do stuff they want to do, whether they're users or hackers, so security doesn't make people happy and pisses them off more often than not. I'm talking about things like "reducing the attack surface" by removing code for less commonly-used features, paring down the number of possible ways to do something so everyone has to go through one path regardless of what they're used to, just removing any functionality that could be helpful to a potential attacker even if a lot of people found it helpful or convenient if the risk was deemed too great, etc. And then there's extreme stuff like basically nuking speculative execution in processors entirely and going back to 2000's era designs because of vulnerabilities like Spectre. Overall, it seems like the days of prioritizing user experience are over, and instead the demands of OEMs, governments, enterprise, and ISPs are taking a lot more precedence in how computers and operating systems are designed. ISPs don't want hacked computers on their networks, governments worry about cyberattacks, OEMs want to maintain a certain degree of control over what features are available on their hardware to improve product differentiation, enterprise wants to cut IT costs and make maintenance simpler and possible with less skilled personnel, etc. And so it no longer matters what you, the user, want... it's all about what the bean counters and risk assessment experts at big institutions who feel the impacts of bad user decisions want, and they want everyone's choices to be limited so that they have fewer variables to deal with and their jobs are easier. They're slowly moving us towards a world with slow, laggy processors that require a lot of parallelism to be remotely useful and locked-down, limited, always-online applications with set user interfaces that can barely do anything beyond the bare minimum specification. In other words, everything is becoming a smartphone, from your vending machine, to your ATM, to your desktop computer.

2. I see part of the problem as actually more related to the increased desire to include people from underdeveloped countries with low literacy rates who have never used a computer before. They can't use words in the interfaces because a lot of the people they want using their products that represent an untapped market for them, are from the poorest countries in Africa or some place where people can't read or anything, and it's easier to make everything as visual as possible to cater to people with no computer experience and a limited ability to read words. Which means everything is done using overly simplified, culturally non-specific graphics to cut down on translation time and allow toddlers and people in developing countries to use their stuff. In other words, I don't think the public education system in first-world countries has declined by quite that much, at least not relative to society as a whole, but rather the problem is that the primary untapped market for new smartphones and PCs is in third-world countries (like those in Africa, for instance) and it's easier to dumb down the system than to make their potential new customers more educated... meanwhile their existing markets are saturated, competition is dead, and we have no choice but to sit around and take it for the most part while they focus on the needs of people who aren't us.

So basically, it's a confluence between those who hold infrastructure influencing the design of operating systems in a direction users don't like, hackers getting too smart and forcing everyone's hand, and also the fact that first-world countries are taken for granted as a market and the technology is being dumbed down so it can be sold to third-world countries rife with illiteracy more easily. The incentives to make software that users like seem to be mostly gone, because all the money is coming from interests who have very different goals from the average user, like protecting investments or being appealing to the illiterate and uneducated people of the world and giving them a decent computing experience. Earlier in computing history, there was a lot more competition, there weren't so many established interests getting in the way, and the market had room to grow among people who were excited about computers and wanted to learn more about them. Now most of the growth is among people who are too ignorant or illiterate to use a computer and every further gain made in market share is at the expense of making something less suitable for average or advanced users.

I don't know if my analysis is 100% correct, but this is how I see it.
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Re: Fedora to stop shipping Xorg in Fedora 41.

Unread post by Moonchild » 2024-04-25, 14:52

athenian200 wrote:
2024-04-25, 13:12
the increased desire to include people from underdeveloped countries
I'm afraid a reality check is in order for that. Underdeveloped countries are not financially interesting for OS publishers and all peripheral companies selling services to it, so they are likely not a consideration. I know it's not the preferred moral stance, but that is how business thinks and works. The lack of education in underdeveloped countries won't be a compelling argument for getting "more users on the platform" because the net result would actually likely be negative , not positive. And if positive, to such a diminished degree that it's not worth the consideration. i.e.: cater to the readily-paying customers, not the penny-pinchers.
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Re: Fedora to stop shipping Xorg in Fedora 41.

Unread post by andyprough » 2024-04-25, 16:06

Moonchild wrote:
2024-04-25, 14:52
Underdeveloped countries are not financially interesting for OS publishers
If the global stat counting numbers can be at all believed, those countries are almost entirely on Android. Desktop OS's have already lost those populations.

One more reason for Pale Moon to consider eventually getting back into Android.

Usage of desktop OS's with Linux or BSD kernels is almost nonexistent in those countries according to those stats. The outlier is India, which shows around 10%-15% desktop OS's with Linux or BSD kernels. I believe one reason for that is the community produced OS's were very early to produce translations into India's many languages.

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Re: Fedora to stop shipping Xorg in Fedora 41.

Unread post by Moonchild » 2024-04-25, 19:11

andyprough wrote:
2024-04-25, 16:06
One more reason for Pale Moon to consider eventually getting back into Android.
I don't see that happening. Our platform no longer has support for it and if we were to do something similar to what Mozilla did for iOS, it would effectively be a different product. We don't have the resources to split our attention for that.
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Re: Fedora to stop shipping Xorg in Fedora 41.

Unread post by moonbat » 2024-04-26, 01:34

Eduardolucas1 wrote:
2024-04-25, 10:30
The reason windows, linux and interfaces have gone to the lowest common denominator regarding to UI design, architecture-level decisions, OS design, userland decisions and code is due to
I would say neither of these, and everyone is reading too deeply into it. Look at this timeline of events:
  • 2007 - iPhone arrives and touchscreen smartphones go mainstream.
  • 2008 - Google launches the first Android phone, made by HTC - so now smartphones go even more mainstream.
  • Mobile internet usage takes off.
  • 2011-12 - Mozilla introduces Firefox 4 and Microsoft introduces Windows 8 with its Metro UI. Both have a heavily redesigned UI and start the trend of pruning features for the sake of simplicity and catering to the mobile crowd
  • 2013 - Mobile internet traffic overtakes desktop internet traffic and then starts to grow even faster. This only exacerbates the trend of mobile first design that we see now.
Since mobile phones are heavily constrained in terms of screen space and resources, their UI necessarily has to be more simplified than a desktop,and the same goes for mobile websites. The vast majority of people now use mobiles exclusively at the expense of laptops or desktops to access the internet for personal use, so it isn't worth the extra effort for companies to maintain separate codebases for desktop and mobile apps/websites. (Even though it is possible with modern 'responsive' development to render the same website optimally on both desktop and mobile screens :coffee:). And since enough time has passed, younger generations have also grown up with more exposure to smartphones and apps than the traditional web.

The whole attitude is why bother when you can simply scale up a mobile UI to a desktop, or stick a website in an Electron framework and call it a day. tl;dr - it's down to business efficiency, nothing to do with broader society or education. After all the same general public had been using desktop PCs for the first decade of the century.
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