Windows 11 still sucks.

[Moonchild]

and where would you use them most? in browsers. and we will support unicode 17 emoji on all platforms in v34.0

[Mæstro]

I always uninstall emoji fonts, for I prefer a browsing experience without them. Traditional smilies are exempt, of course.
Other bits of Unicode receiving better support in younger systems are of much more interest to me.

[andyprough]

Ubuntu announced in November that they've extended support for their LTS releases to 15 years total. So you could start using Ubuntu 26.04 this coming April when it's released and keep using that same version until 2041

Well, that is of course ignoring the fact that Linux these days has much faster turnaround in what environments are supported by applications on it. Unless you also feel comfortable with compiling what you use yourself, and are technically inclined enough to do so, that long of a support window is simply only useful if you don't need current software or have very limited usage patterns. i.e., great for servers that don't really need to change, but for desktop use not so much...

But that's the same for users of any OS with such very long-term support. The only people using Windows versions for 13-18 years at a time are those who a) are highly technical users who must support some old enterprise system or old database or something of that nature; or b) those who are also highly technical users who simply do not want to be pushed off onto newer versions. Once again, we end up talking about the 0.0001% of users, no matter the OS, but it's irrelevant to the question of what is better for the masses.

For myself, I do not want Windows users to abandon that OS and jump onto GNU/Linux distros by the hundreds of millions of people in a mad rush. The support forums would be completely overwhelmed, it would become nearly impossible for distro maintainers and package maintainers to get anything done other than babysitting non-technical users 100% of the time. So, that being the case I hope that Windows 11 improves enough to satisfy the needs of most of its users.

[UCyborg]

The thing about emojis was a bit of a random thought. Is it mostly about the fonts recognizing new characters or is there more to it?

I suppose it's true that looking more broadly, compatibility with newer programs sooner or later suffers on older Windows too.

[frostknight]

For myself, I do not want Windows users to abandon that OS and jump onto GNU/Linux distros by the hundreds of millions of people in a mad rush. The support forums would be completely overwhelmed, it would become nearly impossible for distro maintainers and package maintainers to get anything done other than babysitting non-technical users 100% of the time. So, that being the case I hope that Windows 11 improves enough to satisfy the needs of most of its users.

I think you are dreaming... at the rate windows 11 is being developed, the agentic aspect is going to scare many away.

400 Million people already have ditched windows 11 at least because of all the bs agentic crap.

Honestly, though, if they join the forums with intent to learn things and be self-sustainable, it wouldn't be a problem with many joining linux.

That however remains to be seen... we don't know what will happen lol.

[frostknight]

This is on topic.
One is reminded of how Windows 10 thought for a while that CAD would become to the layman another category of equal status to pictures or music, creating a ‘My 3D Assets’ folder on the level of My Documents and even trying to replace Paint. I seem to recall this failing and being quietly undone. Cortana is also already in its grave. Perhaps Copilot will soon join it whenever this bubble pops.

My bad, I wasn't thinking about whether it was on topic lol. I just was being cautious lol.

only Moonchild can edit this now though. So... I can't remove the off topic mark for whatever reason.

Anyhow good call there

[Moonchild]

Looks like people have gotten really tired of Microsoft's Satya Nadella constantly pushing so hard for AI into everything in Win 11, as well as leaning into people "stop calling AI `slop`", so now he got roasted for it and the term "Microslop" is now trending hard on social media XD

00005-603299252.png

[frostknight]

Looks like people have gotten really tired of Microsoft's Satya Nadella constantly pushing so hard for AI into everything in Win 11, as well as leaning into people "stop calling AI `slop`", so now he got roasted for it and the term "Microslop" is now trending hard on social media XD

That's not surprising, it hurts privacy and security (bank information is at risk too!)

Off-topic:
Out of curiosity do you have a plan once windows 10 LTSC is deprecated if the newer ones keep going agentic?

Thought I would ask. Although you do have till 2031.

[Moonchild]

Out of curiosity do you have a plan once windows 10 LTSC is deprecated if the newer ones keep going agentic?

Thought I would ask. Although you do have till 2031.

I'm just waiting and seeing what happens for now. I have plenty of time, as you say. I'm not touching Win 11 (other than in a VM to test Pale Moon on it). We'll see when this bubble bursts what happens next.

[andyprough]

Honestly, though, if they join the forums with intent to learn things and be self-sustainable, it wouldn't be a problem with many joining linux

Look who's dreaming. As with the Apple platform, the entire reason the average user is on Windows is so they can treat it like a toaster or a dishwasher and NOT learn things.

[Mæstro]

…at the rate windows 11 is being developed, the agentic aspect is going to scare many away.

I said this early in the thread, but will say it again: unless Microsoft is willing to forsake China, it will always be possible to suppress that.

400 Million people already have ditched windows 11 at least

How are you deriving this number?

Honestly, though, if they join the forums with intent to learn things and be self-sustainable, it wouldn't be a problem with many joining linux.

Look who's dreaming. As with the Apple platform, the entire reason the average user is on Windows is so they can treat it like a toaster or a dishwasher and NOT learn things.

You made me realise that I have no actual experiences with Windows or Macintosh technical support. My uncle, an engineer, would offer help for our family so on the very rare occasions when I could not figure out how to resolve a problem on my own or with online resources. What does a layman actually do when Windows 11 is not working? I am too insulated to know.

[Night Wing]

For myself, I do not want Windows users to abandon that OS and jump onto GNU/Linux distros by the hundreds of millions of people in a mad rush. The support forums would be completely overwhelmed, it would become nearly impossible for distro maintainers and package maintainers to get anything done other than babysitting non-technical users 100% of the time.

I am a non-technical person who went over to the Dark Side of Linux. Your remark above equates to all of us non-technical types as being "computer illiterate". We are "not". Non-technical is not the same thing as being computer illiterate.

My first foray into the world of Windows was with Windows 98 SE. Did I know very much about "98"? No, I didn't. Basically nothing. But I took the "time to learn" about 98 to use it.

So when Windows 8 came along and I absolutely hated it with a "pink purple passion", for me, that was when I decided to kick Windows to the curb and switch to Linux.

Did I know anything about the world of Linux before hand? Again, basically nothing. But I "wanted" to learn about Linux because I never wanted to go back to the Windows operating system which I loathe and still do.

And that learning process took a little time and effort. For me, the learning process for Linux did "not" involve lots of frustration or aggravation. In other words, for me, "baby steps". But I enjoyed learning about Linux easily and I think this is why I took to Linux, "like a newly hatched duckling takes to water".

To sum up, even though I no longer use Linux Mint since I gave Mint up this past Summer of 2025, I am still a registered member on the Mint forums. I have been a member on the Mint forum site since 2013. That is 12 years ago. In all of that time frame, I have less than 600 posts.

And in lots of those less than 600 posts, there are a lots of "chit-chat" posts like the discussions which goes on here in this Off Topic forum in our Pale Moon forums site.

[Moonchild]

But I "wanted" to learn about Linux because I never wanted to go back to the Windows operating system which I loathe and still do.

And that learning process took a little time and effort.

For many people, the learning process is hard, and Linux can be extremely frustrating (even for someone as tech savvy as myself) because it pretty much inevitably will throw you some curve balls. It takes a pretty resolute mentality to deal with the situations where something "seems to work" or "almost works" but ultimately doesn't work and requires some very obscure steps to wrangle whatever your particular chosen distro is into behaving the way you expected it to. And Andy is right in that that would cause a ton of pressure on the Linux communities, especially since those communities are mostly used to tinkerers and power users that are easier to help with obscure instructions/steps. Not so much an average PC user who expects things to mostly "just work", who are probably already frustrated when they arrive, and want something relatively fast after giving minimal information. In a way it's similar to people coming from mainstream browsers to Pale Moon and finding the experience of having to take extra steps to unbreak sites annoying and frustrating.

[Night Wing]

@ Moonchild

You are a power user (tech savvy) even when it comes to Linux. But I am not. In layman's terms (plain english) in Linux you deal with lots of coding to create something to make it work. But I do not do coding. I take what you created and "use it". This is why I classify myself as non-technical.

I may be wrong on this, but since I use what power users like yourself create, I think you "might", not sure of this, classify me as a "tinkerer" in Linux as long as I am in my element which is the Xfce desktop environment.

Now if I run into a problem in Linux, I will use Google, Startpage to find a solution. Which usually leads me to videos on YouTube to solve my problems without having to go to a distro's forum for help from some users of the distro.

But, like you said, sometimes one gets thrown a curveball in Linux. My example is below.

For the now 13 years I have been using Linux, my favorite program (application) to flash a linux iso to a flash/thumb drive was Balena-Etcher in 64 AppImage because it never needed to be installed. It worked in Mint and in MX Linux.

But the Etcher maintainers changed something in it. They dropped 64 and went to 32 Legacy. That was dumb in my opinion because 32 does not work in 64 bit Mint and 64 bit MX Linux.

So I needed to install Etcher via a .deb file. Well, the .deb file will not install in either Mint or MX Linux. That was a disappointment for me. Did I give up? Nope. Since Mint's USB maker sometimes worked and then sometimes it didn't, maybe because of something "missing", I decided to go for an alternative. When I am looking for an alternative, I am a "blood hound on a blood hunt". If there is an alternative, I am the type of person who will find it.

In MX Linux, I can use the MX Live USB Maker. It is installed by default in MX and it works flawlessly. But I wanted a backup "just in case" something might change. So I hunted for that alternative. Found there were three that I liked and easy to use, via YouTube and they are: Disks, MultiWriter, Popsicle.

Disks is not installed by default in MX so I had to find it's linux name which is: gnome-disk-utility. Had to install it using Synaptic. Second one found was MultiWriter and I had to find it's linux name which is: gnome-multi-writer. Had to install this one too using Synaptic. The third was Popsicle and it is a 64 AppImage where it does not need to be installed. All three work and are easy to learn.

In closing.

If a person does not like using Windows 11 or is just "tolerating" it, if they REALLY want an alternative, that alternative is Linux (in my opinion). Just pick an easy friendly distro like Mint in Xfce to start with. Granted, it will take some time and effort. But it is not like having to learn theoretical quantum physics. And in my opinion, the time and effort is "worth it". And since I am not a power user, depending on what users classify me as either a non-technical or tinkerer, I am the example.

[andyprough]

I am a non-technical person who went over to the Dark Side of Linux. Your remark above equates to all of us non-technical types as being "computer illiterate". We are "not". Non-technical is not the same thing as being computer illiterate.

You work hard to make yourself out to be non-technical, and yet you work in a computer shop and set up and repair computers for others. You don't treat a computer like a toaster or a dishwasher - a disposable item that you replace when it stops responding to you pushing its few buttons. You are an advanced user with quite a bit of technical knowledge, like it or not. Not as advanced as Moonchild or moonbat probably, but still miles ahead of the average user.

[andyprough]

What does a layman actually do when Windows 11 is not working? I am too insulated to know.

I can't speak to Windows 11 since it is so new, but for the Windows versions before it I've seen them buy a Macbook instead, or in some rare cases they pay the people at BestBuy or the local computer shop to fix it for them. That's what I've seen. Or, if they are lucky enough to know a kind person like you or your uncle or me or Night Wing, they get their family member or neighbor to take it from them and fix it for them. In which case I usually just put in a cheap new SSD with MX Linux on it and show them where their web browser is and they are happy. The people I've given MX Linux computers to have no idea that there's any difference once they find their web browser.

What I find amusing is that people can be talked into spending thousands of dollars on new Apple gear when all they really ever use is a web browser. For less than $100 they could have had a new SSD and continued using their old computer. What can you do?

[Night Wing]

You are an advanced user with quite a bit of technical knowledge, like it or not. Not as advanced as Moonchild or moonbat probably, but still miles ahead of the average user.

Windows 7 was the last Windows operating system I ever used. Windows 7 does have a Terminal, but I "never" used it. And for the Windows' Registry, I only went in there "one time". This was to fix a time discrepancy of about 6 hours between Windows 7 and Linux Mint when I was dual booting.

Windows uses UTC time and Mint uses Local Time. Once I fixed this, both Windows 7 and Mint showed the correct time and date. And I found the fix on Google.

You might think and say I am an advanced user where both Moonchild or Moonbat have more knowledge that I possess, but I am "far" from it. I have been a registered member on the Mint Forums since 2013. But most of my knowledge when using Mint and I encountered a problem, I'd say about 50% of the time it was an answer given on the Mint Forums by reading the posts from someone who had a problem like mine and from the person who solved it.

The other 50% of the time when I encountered a problem in Mint was solved by either searching on Google (Startpage) or by viewing YouTube videos. And some of those videos gave the wrong information while other videos gave the right information to solve the problem. One just has to have patience when watching a YouTube video to solve a problem in Linux.

When you look at my signature or anyone else takes the time to look at my signature, you (or they) will see (at the time of this posting) I am using MX Linux and Debian. Both distros have a Forums site. But here is the kicker. I am "not" a registered member on either of the MX forums site or the Debian forums site. And I do not "lurk" on those two sites either.

I'd say 95% if my MX and Debian knowledge comes from watching and learning from YouTube videos for those two linux distros. But I will admit this. When I started with Mint, I chose the Xfce (DE). Both MX and Debian offer Xfce. So I am very comfortable if I want to experiment with a linux distro I am not using, like Sparky Linux, so long as that distro offers Xfce.

Here is another example. And I will use MX and Debian.

When I first installed MX and I plugged in a flash drive to restore my bookmarks on the Bookmarks Toolbar, the flash drive showed up on my Desktop. But when I first installed Debian and I plugged in the flash drive to again, restore my bookmarks to the Bookmarks Toolbar, the flash drive did not appear.

Why? In "Removable Drives and Media, in MX the first tab is "Storage" and under that are three settings and all of the them are "checked" by default. The first one is; Mount removable drives when hot-plugged. The second is; Mount removable media when inserted. The third is; Browse removable media when inserted.

But in Debian, in Removable Drives and Media, those three setttings under Storage, are "unchecked" by default. So when a flash drive is inserted, nothing happens. Why? Because the the flash drive went inside the Thunar file manager.

So how I did figure this out? I did a search on Google and the info was confirmed by watching a YouTube video.

In closing.

If a person who is not a power user in Windows and is just tolerating Windows 11 and does not really need a Windows only application, then switching to Linux is a viable alternative. But if one "has to have" a Windows only application, then stay with Windows 11. Or load Windows 11 and then create a folder for a linux distro thereby having a virtual machine so the person can still use Windows 11 and then when the "urge" hits, experiment with learning a linux distro.

The "best of both worlds" in my opinion.

[andyprough]

You might think and say I am an advanced user where both Moonchild or Moonbat have more knowledge that I possess, but I am "far" from it.

And yet, here you are, speaking on advanced technical topics on this forum daily, and helping other users to troubleshoot their problems, and that's when you aren't in the computer shop rebuilding computers for people. "Far from it"? I think not.

You are up here [pointing to a spot about 7 feet off the ground], and the average user is down here [pointing toward my toes]. The fact that Moonchild is flying far above in a spacecraft in orbit does not mean you are not advanced and technical compared to the average person.

[moonbat]

@Night Wing, what sets you apart from the average user is your own willingness to learn. As you've told us many times, you learned to use Linux after getting put off by Windows 8. That in itself is an extreme rarity, normal users neither object to the flat UI disaster nor care to learn anything new, they see the computer as a toaster as andyprough said. I see it right here on these forums- newbies (and even those with a post count of a few hundred) who won't even bother to post the URL of the site that's not working let alone troubleshooting info despite there being a template right in the new post page.

[Mæstro]

You don't treat a computer like a toaster or a dishwasher - a disposable item that you replace when it stops responding to you pushing its few buttons.

For a while, I could not tell how you meant ‘treat a computer like a toaster’, until you said this. it simply attests to how poor the craftsmanship in modern appliances has got. I have been using this computer daily since 2012. Unlike younger computers, it has an external battery, which I have replaced four times before deciding to leave it running on mains power, without a battery at all. The monitor cracked during transport in 2018, and was likewise replaced; I had got help from family for that. One of its four external USB ports is physically broken, but I just limit myself to the three good ports. In 2020, I had brought it to a local professional to clear its interior of dust. Hardware work is off limits for me for disability-related reasons, but throwing away this computer is unthinkable to me, even if it would cost more than to replace it. It has been with me half my life (literally: 492‰) and accompanied me through many changes in my life. One does not (often) grow attached to a toaster, but I have become attached to this in the way I have to my childhood pillow and blankets, in which I am wrapped while writing this. Family and friends have often urged me to upgrade, but I think of that as wasteful. I had never thought to connect that with electronic failures, although planned obsolescence is familiar to me in the abstract. Consumerism is so foreign to me that I forget people really maintain it.

I see it right here on these forums- newbies (and even those with a post count of a few hundred) who won't even bother to post the URL of the site that's not working let alone troubleshooting info despite there being a template right in the new post page.

I would like to give my formal apology for having been such a user when I first joined this board. I shall neither try to excuse it nor explain why it persisted for so long. Learning how to learn is a lesson in itself.