Windows 11 still sucks.

[UCyborg]

Those fonts on YouTube in Firefox! xD

[Octopuss]

So I switched. It works. I am not fond of certain visual changes while some others seem rather good.
Everything works. The GUI feels a little slow at times (in certain places at least), but thus far it looks like I won't kill myself over the new OS.

[Night Wing]

Any counterpart to a simple executable in Linux is harder to use (eg shell scripts) or less reliable (eg Appimage).

Somehow I missed this so I am a little late to pick at it.

What is unreliable about an AppImage in Linux? I have used AppImages in Mint, MX Linux and Debian. Never had a problem. I am guessing some people cannot get AppImages to work because one has to give permission to make them work in Linux.

I will give you two AppImage examples. They are RustDesk and Popsicle.

RustDesk is a remote control app. At the computer repair shop, we ask and nine times out of ten, the customers give us permission to remote into their computers. They do this because some of our customers travel 25 miles from their home to our repair shop. This saves them money (fuel for their vehicles) and time when doing a round round trip back to their home.

All I do is download the AppImage at the link below to their Desktop.

https://github.com/rustdesk/rustdesk/releases/tag/1.4.4

Then I pick the AppImage to download which is:

Code: Select all

 rustdesk-1.4.4-x86_64.AppImage 

Then I right click on the AppImage which brings up a context window. Then left click on "Properties". This opens up another contex window. I left click on the third tab on that page which is "Permissions". The final context window opens and I then put a check mark in the small empty box there.
Then close the window.

Then I double left click on the AppImage (since I downloaded RustDeskt to their Desktop where two left clicks are required to run the application). RustDesk opens and is ready for use.

Another example is Popsicle.

Popsicle is an application which is strictly for Linux and it will not work in Windows. I use it to flash linux iso's to a flash/thumb drive. But the method to use it is exactly the same as I did for RustDesk.

https://github.com/pop-os/popsicle/releases/tag/1.3.3

Then I scroll on down to pick the AppImage.

Code: Select all

 Popsicle_USB_Flasher-1.3.3-x86_64.AppImage 

I've never had a problem with either of these two AppImages when using them.

[Mæstro]

So I switched. It works. I am not fond of certain visual changes while some others seem rather good.
Everything works. The GUI feels a little slow at times (in certain places at least), but thus far it looks like I won't kill myself over the new OS.

I have written off Windows’ UI as forsaken without third-party help since 2012. I never understood what anybody was thinking when they claimed that Windows 11 (or later iOS versions…) broke away from 8 and 10’s flat design. To my eye, they are all the same.

Off-topic:

What is unreliable about an AppImage in Linux? I have used AppImages in Mint, MX Linux and Debian. Never had a problem. I am guessing some people cannot get AppImages to work because one has to give permission to make them work in Linux.

I speak from my own experience. I know that I must permit execution manually before trying to run an AppImage, yet even after doing so, no AppImage has ever correctly run on my computer. At best, it might work with certain (critical) features disabled, like Otter Browser with broken SSL libraries and updating. More often, it will crash on start or fail to start at all. Your experiences have been luckier.

[Night Wing]

I speak from my own experience. I know that I must permit execution manually before trying to run an AppImage, yet even after doing so, no AppImage has ever correctly run on my computer. At best, it might work with certain (critical) features disabled, like Otter Browser with broken SSL libraries and updating. More often, it will crash on start or fail to start at all. Your experiences have been luckier.[/offtopic]
[/quote]

Speaking from my own experience. I do not think "luck" has anything to do with it since I am using these two Applmage applications (RustDesk, Popsicle) on "five" of my computers which consist of two desktop tower computers and three laptops.

And all of these five computers are "different" models from one another. Theoretically, if they was a problem with any of those two AppImages, it should have affected at least one of my five computers. But it has not happened. This is why I say "luck" is not involved.

They also worked on Mint when I was using Mint and now on my daily driver distro, MX Linux and it's backup distro Debian. Lastly, these two AppImages I use are "not installed" either even when I was using Mint and now when I am using MX and Debian.

Almost forgot this. When it comes to Mint, MX Linux and Debian, all three of them use the Xfce desktop environment.

[mr tribute]

Lots of Linux stuff in this thread which kind of suits me. Linux forums aren't full of activity anymore. I don't know if it is the younger generation that is averse to forums and prefer Reddit etc. Or maybe the younger generation prefers iPads over PCs. Anyway since there is a discussion about Linux executables and various formats I thought I would add my two cents.

The file extension isn't really relevant on Linux apart from desktop integration. They are mostly there to signal to the user what kind of file it is.

The AppImage format was modeled after the .dmg format for Macs. It’s an image based format that mounts a virtual filesystem I believe. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn’t since AppImages often come with expectations regarding the underlying Linux system. Most notably a rather new version of glibc. So if Maestro has problems with AppImages I would suggest to upgrade the distro to a version that is currently supported. Debian 10 is out of support regarding AppImage compatibility.

A simple executable in Linux could be named application or application.bin and packaged as an archive (.tar.gz or .zip for example).

A Linux program installer can come as a script (which makes it distro independent). We once had a wonderful Pale Moon Installer for Linux that came as a script. The script started a GTK2 GUI installer/updater. It think this was a real fan service to Linux users and felt a bit sad that it was dropped. It didn’t impact me personally because I get Pale Moon from a repo, but it was a sign that Pale Moon for Linux was just as important as Pale Moon for Windows (at least on a superficial level). I do realize that to keep that GUI a transition to GTK3 would be required.

Sometimes a GUI isn’t necessary. I use a Betterbird script to keep Betterbird updated on Linux.

[Lucio Chiappetti]

My point of view as a pluridecennial user of Linux and Unix before that.
There is no need to use appimage, flatpak or snap. I never used the former two and only occasionally the latter (and consider them obnoxious).

The simplest way to "install" something (a "package", which may be one or more executables, related man pages, config files, library dependencies) in a pre-canned way is from .deb or .rpm (according to flavour) generally via the GUI which accesses the distro repository (for packages outside of the distro there are command line commands like apt for .deb)

Another simple way (which allows to unpack the package as user without "installing" them in the system) is to get tar.gz files (this is what I do for Pale Moon)

Last resource is compiling from sources

[Mæstro]

Reflecting on this thread and its perpetual tendency to veer into Linux discussion shows how irrelevant Windows versions since 7 are to my life. I encountered early in 2013 a twenty-minute video review of Windows 8 (made in GoAnimate, oddly enough) which bemoaned its lunatic interface, cementing in my mind that no sane man would ever use something like that. If only we knew this was just the first act in the glorious circus which is modern IT!

I am left to wonder where, exactly, it began and how. The earliest example which has entered my awareness actually occurred just a few months after Windows 7 released, when a US television network decided its assorted brand logos were too messy when assembled onto a business card, moving them to replace them with what we would recognise as flat design. I wish I had more of substance to go on.

Off-topic:

So if Maestro has problems with AppImages I would suggest to upgrade the distro to a version that is currently supported. Debian 10 is out of support regarding AppImage compatibility.

I accept this is probably the case for many Appimages online today, but I had got the same results from those last updated in 2021/22, and which I would therefore expect should support Debian 10. There is no real reason for me to upgrade my distribution at present, and I try not to mess with my computer unless I must for my sanity’s sake, but I discussed my options recently.
Like Sig Chiappetti, I see no need for AppImages. The only reason I found myself experimenting with them recently was that I had to test substitute browsers for my antiquated Chromium installation. Only one Appimage has ever actually interested me, Ripcord, and if we are discussing my preferences there, I would rather convince that one friend to use an iPhone so I can just leave Discord behind.

I don't know if it is the younger generation that is averse to forums and prefer Reddit etc. Or maybe the younger generation prefers iPads over PCs.

Funny, we have got a thread about that topic…

[Night Wing]

Off-topic:
I speak from my own experience. I know that I must permit execution manually before trying to run an AppImage, yet even after doing so, no AppImage has ever correctly run on my computer. At best, it might work with certain (critical) features disabled, like Otter Browser with broken SSL libraries and updating. More often, it will crash on start or fail to start at all. Your experiences have been luckier.

Off-topic:
Speaking from my own experience. I do not think "luck" has anything to do with it since I am using these two Applmage applications (RustDesk, Popsicle) on "five" of my computers which consist of two desktop tower computers and three laptops.

And all of these five computers are "different" models from one another. Theoretically, if there was a problem with any of those two AppImages, it should have affected at least one of my five computers. But it has not happened. This is why I say "luck" is not involved.

They also worked on Mint when I was using Mint and now on my daily driver distro, MX Linux and it's backup distro Debian. Lastly, these two AppImages I use are "not installed" either even when I was using Mint and now when I am using MX and Debian.

Almost forgot this. When it comes to Mint, MX Linux and Debian, all three of them use the Xfce desktop environment.

[mr tribute]

I do see all the videos on YouTube with people upset about Windows 11. And I think I get it. Microsoft has tightened the screws compared to Windows 10. I don’t like it either.

But this is the trajectory Microsoft has always been on. And there is nothing Microsoft has done to Windows 11 that can’t be undone (from my own perspective as a Windows 11 user for 2 – 3 years).

I understand that normal users are upset. But for “power-users” I don’t see any difference between Windows 10 and Windows 11. Anything can be undone to the best of my knowledge.

Windows 11 feature-wise is miles ahead of Windows 7 and the Windows eco-system can offer almost anything that can be done with Linux (and some more).

That being said with the advent of automatic Bitlocker encryption and the strong AI push I have hopefully done my last Windows 11 installation.

I like Linux so I can use that instead.

A tip to Maestro would be to launch AppImages from the terminal, because this is highly likely to show why they won’t launch. Running Debian 10 is a bit like running Windows 7 so don’t expect compatibility.

AppImages were more flakey in the beginning because the devs made them too small. Then they started to include more libs to get better compatibility across distros.

[Mæstro]

I do see all the videos on YouTube with people upset about Windows 11.

I do not watch those reviews now, but prefer hearing friends share their own experiences. My friend who limits himself to an iPhone unless he needs office software (for slideshows for his lectures or writing fanfiction) seems to suffer far fewer headaches in his IT life. I have never heard him complain, whereas my friends who involuntarily adopted Windows 11 when their older computers broke often do.

Microsoft has tightened the screws compared to Windows 10. I don’t like it either. But this is the trajectory Microsoft has always been on. And there is nothing Microsoft has done to Windows 11 that can’t be undone (from my own perspective as a Windows 11 user for 2 – 3 years). I understand that normal users are upset. But for “power-users” I don’t see any difference between Windows 10 and Windows 11. Anything can be undone to the best of my knowledge.

I believe you, but this is minding the proverb: Windows died in 2012. The turning point was after Windows 7, from operating systems which could be trusted to avoid treachery without needing to undo anything to ones which could not.

Windows 11 feature-wise is miles ahead of Windows 7

What has actually changed? The only times I could see OS higher than Windows 7 in use were for a period of a few days in 2016(?), when I tried Windows 10 to play a visual novel before installing Mint over it, and sporadically in 2018–19, when an acquaintance used 8·1 to access anime sites to watch at our uni’s club, or I visited the computer lab during economics or physics courses and used Office on W10 computers. Friends describe using professional software which might have ceased to support Windows 7, but nothing they do sounds alien.

[T]he Windows eco-system can offer almost anything that can be done with Linux (and some more).

Is there any reason for this beyond the fact that Windows has been the dominant OS for thirty unbroken years now, inheriting its throne from DOS, and therefore receives the most attention from application developers?

A tip to Maestro would be to launch AppImages from the terminal, because this is highly likely to show why they won’t launch. Running Debian 10 is a bit like running Windows 7 so don’t expect compatibility.

Off-topic:
Haha, so five years on, the switch really has brought me security and little else.
Thanks for the tip, in any case. I will try it when I next feel like poking with Ripcord.

Since Debian 10 was released in 2019, it is funny to think it is quite like a Windows OS released a decade earlier, as far as compatibility is concerned. Perhaps, with further information from our friends in Appleland, we could relate application support to OS age and popularity.

[UCyborg]

The only reasonable choice (to my knowledge) if you want to keep an OS version for longer time is...Windows.

As for what's new in Win10, the kernel is better among other things. Things that come to mind are less swapping, reduced audio latency, out-of-box support for serial over USB devices, Android's ADB (fastboot works too if you force the same driver as for ADB), compositor is more tightly integrated with the OS and more reliable, console host was improved so console windows finally behave normally (ability to normally resize and maximize them), updated GUI for environment variable editing - for editing Path, you now have a list where you can move the entries and edit them instead of one text box with whole variable value.

I remember finding a good writeup for Windows 8 specifics under the hood that I can't find ATM, but I remember the kernel since Win8 is tickless.

Also somewhere along the way notifications are done got better, though Pale Moon and other UXP applications still don't use it... You can post a notification and it will stay in dedicated space until dismissed, unlike old notification balloons that appeared and disappeared and could be easily missed.

Editing file associations on modern Windows versions in a way that wouldn't be so clunky is still a mystery to me, though I haven't looked for third-party solutions for this one. And I've no idea if restoring Manage Wireless Networks GUI works on versions beyond Win10 1809...or if settings app improved in that regard.

[Mæstro]

The only reasonable choice (to my knowledge) if you want to keep an OS version for longer time is...Windows.

Debian versions receive a decade support, including ELTS. i have commented before in this thread about Ubuntu support, and indeed, my question in the Linux thread about Ubuntu use was to gauge whether it could suit my needs after all.

Android's ADB (fastboot works too if you force the same driver as for ADB)

Being reminded that Android is locked-down Linux from time to time is useful in a few of our other threads.

I remember the kernel since Win8 is tickless.

Once as an experiment in Windows 7, I wanted to see the longest uptime period I could manage. Each night, instead of shutting my computer down, I would just put it into sleep mode. I kept up all my other habits as normal. My computer made it 96 days before crashing. I encountered rare crashes in Windows 7, but have no good records about how often it was.

[andyprough]

The only reasonable choice (to my knowledge) if you want to keep an OS version for longer time is...Windows.

Ubuntu announced in November that they've extended support for their LTS releases to 15 years total. So you could start using Ubuntu 26.04 this coming April when it's released and keep using that same version until 2041 with official support. That's got to be right up there with the very longest Windows paid enterprise extended support periods.

[Moonchild]

Ubuntu announced in November that they've extended support for their LTS releases to 15 years total. So you could start using Ubuntu 26.04 this coming April when it's released and keep using that same version until 2041

Well, that is of course ignoring the fact that Linux these days has much faster turnaround in what environments are supported by applications on it. Unless you also feel comfortable with compiling what you use yourself, and are technically inclined enough to do so, that long of a support window is simply only useful if you don't need current software or have very limited usage patterns. i.e., great for servers that don't really need to change, but for desktop use not so much...

[frostknight]

I speak from my own experience. I know that I must permit execution manually before trying to run an AppImage, yet even after doing so, no AppImage has ever correctly run on my computer. At best, it might work with certain (critical) features disabled, like Otter Browser with broken SSL libraries and updating. More often, it will crash on start or fail to start at all. Your experiences have been luckier.

chmod +x your.appimage

That's how you get appimages working if they don't work already.

[frostknight]

Well, that is of course ignoring the fact that Linux these days has much faster turnaround in what environments are supported by applications on it. Unless you also feel comfortable with compiling what you use yourself, and are technically inclined enough to do so, that long of a support window is simply only useful if you don't need current software or have very limited usage patterns. i.e., great for servers that don't really need to change, but for desktop use not so much...

Off-topic:
Linux works for some things on desktop actually without compiling I mean... their repos have that stuff already. I am speaking of course of stuff like web browsers, emulators like dosbox-x or compatibility layers like wine-staging or proton.

Also, there is winboat and winapps being worked on for stuff you would use it for. I recommend watching winboat and if you were to switch to a linux, I will say what i said before, Zorin. Damn straight.

Although you won't have to worry till 2031 if I recall correctly due to LTSC, right?

Agentic OS is such a bad idea, which is why its wise your not using windows 11.

Good on you for that for sure.

Copilot is a dumpster fire.

[Mæstro]

Ubuntu announced in November that they've extended support for their LTS releases to 15 years total. So you could start using Ubuntu 26.04 this coming April when it's released and keep using that same version until 2041 with official support. That's got to be right up there with the very longest Windows paid enterprise extended support periods.

Ah, this is the dream: OS changes just thrice or four times more in my lifetime. It would mean half my OS switching is already behind me: 2000 to XP, XP to 7, 7 to Debian 10. It is actually enough to make me willing to consider Ubuntu, if I could destroy any trace of Snap, commercial metaphors etc in it. If we include support for embedded systems, XP and 7 lasted for eighteen and fifteen years, while 10’s embedded support should persist until 2032 (not 2031; I take it this date comes from Server 2022), making seventeen years. Ignoring embedded system updates, but counting paid enterprise supports, they (will) have lasted thirteen, fourteen and again fourteen years. Debian’s own support cycle resembles what Microsoft calls its Fixed Policy, which is also the origin of the roughly thirteen-year limit observed in Windows ESR.

…that long of a support window is simply only useful if you don't need current software or have very limited usage patterns….

Am I both? I imagined that my usage habits were broader than ‘very limited’, but I could be wrong.

Off-topic:

chmod +x your.appimage
That's how you get appimages working if they don't work already.

I did that, of course. This thread is not about diagnosing my AppImage problems and I have said all I meaningfully can about the software as such, but you are invited if I create a ‘help me troubleshoot Ripcord’ thread.

Agentic OS is such a bad idea, which is why its wise your not using windows 11. Good on you for that for sure. Copilot is a dumpster fire.

This is on topic.
One is reminded of how Windows 10 thought for a while that CAD would become to the layman another category of equal status to pictures or music, creating a ‘My 3D Assets’ folder on the level of My Documents and even trying to replace Paint. I seem to recall this failing and being quietly undone. Cortana is also already in its grave. Perhaps Copilot will soon join it whenever this bubble pops.

[UCyborg]

But then I was curious for good portion of my life what MS is cooking and liked trying new Windows versions, so was usually not far behind.

Android's ADB (fastboot works too if you force the same driver as for ADB)

Being reminded that Android is locked-down Linux from time to time is useful in a few of our other threads.

Regarding my remark specifically, it was a small thing, there is universal driver package floating around. Because driver is always the same, though for some reason Google didn't publish installation package that would simply target the common device ID so all phone manufacturers ended up re-packaging the same thing targeting their devices.

I remember the kernel since Win8 is tickless.

Once as an experiment in Windows 7, I wanted to see the longest uptime period I could manage. Each night, instead of shutting my computer down, I would just put it into sleep mode. I kept up all my other habits as normal. My computer made it 96 days before crashing. I encountered rare crashes in Windows 7, but have no good records about how often it was.

Hardware drivers also play a role and some version dependent quirks. The 20H2 on my desktop is a bit buggy, Ethernet driver causes crash after couple of days. Interestingly, it seems to occur on that specific build with combination of not actually using the Ethernet adapter (unplugged cable). Win10 1809 is the sweet spot for me, considering all the good and bad that comes with newer Windows in general. But curiosity made me end up on 20H2 and didn't feel like setting everything up again, despite some issues. I'm not sure what version I'd pick today.

The laptop at work that runs 1809 easily goes over half-year in uptime. 20H2 at home after couple of week exhibits an issue where things don't render in Task Manager. I don't recall exactly which tabs are problematic at the moment. I'm sure that Processes tab is not OK.

[UCyborg]

Oh, it just came to me, one amusing reason to upgrade OS these days...emojis!

https://blog.emojipedia.org/whats-new-in-unicode-17-0/