Curious what (unacceptable) lines has Twitter crossed as of now

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Mæstro
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Re: Curious what (unacceptable) lines has Twitter crossed as of now

Post by Mæstro » 2023-08-19, 22:34

frostknight wrote:
2023-08-19, 04:08
Same here, I don't want to be do this too much especially if I am in a foul mood ;)
Laziness causes most of my delays. I am quite idle at heart. :lol:
To be honest, I don't know when he puts the soul in the fetus, nor does anyone else. Its possible that it doesn't happen till much later which would be ironic but would make sense.
Assuming we cannot know, I would still uphold the precautionary principle as governing here, as said in my last post.
Why should women have to suffer so, especially if its because of unwanted sex?
She ought not suffer for this; that she does at all is the fall’s painful consequence. The unwilling mother deserves all comfort, honour and support that can be rendered. Bearing the child and undergoing the pains of forced pregnancy is a noble act of love for the child’s sake and witness to the faith: that it is better to suffer than return evil for one’s suffering. Likewise, the woman who dies with child in ectopic pregnancy is a martyr, and God rewards her as such. We reject simply that the Christian may employ certain means (viz the use of violence) to prevent or mitigate suffering; they are bad in themselves, regardless of consequence.
While I considered commenting on the USA’s internal politics, having tried to understand for myself why it is so bizarre and why nationalism has taken on religious garb there, There would be too much to say, as I am sure you know. :mrgreen:
Btw, I don't follow any one denomination, I follow as best as I can and if there is something unknown/or potentially controversial, I use my given judgment and think about it before I decide.
As I have said, the Protestant churches throughout Europe, beside marginal sects, are national. Germany’s evangelical church, for example, is from the fusion of Lutheran and Reformed churches; tolerance over interpretation is natural in this environment. Denominations seem more important in the USA; I am aware of the many dissenting churches (especially Baptists) who design many of the bizarre doctrines to have come from your country. Much of the weirdness you observe is unique to US American Christians, not Christendom in general.
The bible does factor in, but its based more on, the fact that I know he isn't cruel and that he desires justice and mercy and not manipulation as well.
Among traditional Protestants, the principle sola scriptura governs: solely scripture can define our faith. Your knowledge of God’s kindness, justice and mercy are compatible with, and moreover can follow from this position. The early Reformers were influenced by contemporary social mores and cruel elements, contrary to a proper exegesis, could thereby enter into their theology; it is only in the last century or so that Protestant theologians have been able to detect and begin to clear these away.
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Re: Curious what (unacceptable) lines has Twitter crossed as of now

Post by Pallid Planetoid » 2023-08-19, 23:17

Just curios - why is it that so many people refer to the Christian God as "He" -- considering that a reference to the word "he" in general implies "gender"?

I bring this up in context with the comment in this topic:
... I don't know when he puts the soul in the fetus...
When ever I hear the work "he" in context to the God of Christianity (which is not that uncommon) I usually have to think twice as to what is being said (in as much as using the pronoun "He" in this respect is not at all intuitive to me).

Does it makes any sense to apply "gender" to the God of Christianity? (from my personal perspective, I think not, frankly!)

And taking it a bit further, consider what it is that "gender" likewise implies - that is there are two "aspects" to what make up the use of the word "gender" and that would be "male" (i.e "he") as well as "Female" (i.e "her")... Fact is the word "Male" (gender) is a meaningless term for the most part absent the term "Female" (gender) if we think about it.

Does using "He" for the Christian God really intend to imply "masculinity" and as such would there then necessarily need to be factored in a counter part such as "femininity"?

I ask, because taking it one more step, we should consider what it means to use the pronoun "He" that likewise implies "gender" - which, as we all know, has to do explicitly with "procreation". Not something that one would consider applicable to the God of Christianity (or for the most part in general any God for that matter) I would think....

At this point, there is a way to resolve the usage of these terms to some extent as it applies exclusively to the God of Christianity however (as explained below) that to some extent conveniently serves as a way to circle-back out of this conundrum we are implicitly finding ourselves in...

So here we go...

I suppose one could say that the use of the word "He" as it is so often translated over to the commonly heard expression "God the "Father" (another reference to the "masculine" side of "gender") are both references that are used in terms of "convenience" and therefore not intended to connote "gender" of any kind at all to the God of Christianity. And then, to take it a bit further as a way to continue to back-out of this conundrum of terms once again (to continue to argue the point as to why we commonly hear such references discussed here as it applies to the God of Christianity) that in terms of "procreation" specific to "God the Father" we could consider one of the paramount characteristics that is for the most part unique to the God of Christianity. And that would be in terms of the all so very important attribute "creator" specific to this discussion that is believed by all Christians to intrinsically pertain to the God of Christianity - and that, in a matter of speaking, this vital term "creator" could arguably be loosely considered synonymous with the term "procreation".

Ho Ho, so there you have it, I've gone full circle as I write this - from asking the whys that impart a series of multiple conundrums to consider that of reaching the wherefores and on to suggesting a possible rationale that one could arguably attains a sense of resolve in the end.... or at least I tired -- any other thoughts?

Just something I've though on from time to time....

Oh and just to be clear, personally, I would still never use the term "He" in reference to the God of Christianity (regardless of my word gymnastics to offer a rationale for the use of "He") - but rather I'll continue to simply use the term "God" which is what appears to me to basically make the most sense as well as seems to be the most appropriate approach to take, imho, all things considered.
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Re: Curious what (unacceptable) lines has Twitter crossed as of now

Post by Mæstro » 2023-08-20, 05:31

I have changed the order of your post to improve my writing’s flow. Some bits might be dense and make more sense to educated Christians; introductory articles on the philosophy of the trinity are available in the IEP and SEP. My grammatical comments have my childhood anglistics lessons in mind; you can seek the Syntax Swami for his wisdom if you will. :angel:
Pallid Planetoid wrote:
2023-08-19, 23:17
Does using "He" for the Christian God really intend to imply "masculinity" and as such would there then necessarily need to be factored in a counter part such as "femininity"?
No. In English, as in German and Latin, all nouns possess grammatical gender: the masculine, feminine or neuter. God, Jehovah, Jesus and so on are grammatically masculine. A proper noun’s gender will usually mirror its referent’s natural sex, as in Jesus, and indeed, this holds for most nouns in English, but this is not universal: Hungary is feminine. While English tends to apply this same rule even to common nouns, there are again disparities: child and lion are neuter. Indeed, English employs the generic masculine in constructions where a participant’s natural sex is indifferent: whoever enters should wipe his feet. One should avoid lay Whorfianism: a word’s grammatical gender entails nothing about its referent’s natural sex, even if the converse might inform.
Personalities (such as human beings) have no grammatical gender because they are not words. I am not my name. Legal and social categories have accreted themselves, at first rigidly and most recently more loosely, about human beings as personalities with bodies which in turn have natural sex, and sociologists have come to call these gender also. Such ambiguity has permitted equivocation and protests against grammar. Solecisms like the singular they likewise sprout from this mire. Purism in grammar, as expressed above, is indifferent to allied social questions; the triumph of logistic over syllogistic, or mathematical over term logic, shows how thought can transcend language.
God, being incorporeal (up to the hypostatic union), has no natural sex. God exists always and necessarily in three ontological modes (hypostases, personae, Seinsweisen) by two relations to himself; this is the doctrine of the trinity which underlies all orthodox Christian thought. One of these modes yields both others and, as their begetter and processor, is naturally spoken of as Father, and due to details in these relations, another can be known as the Son. Attempts to suggest ‘God the Mother’ usually identify this with the Holy Ghost, but this distorts the facts of God’s nature (the Spirit is only the object in intra-divine relations) and is therefore heretical.
※While this is close to your mention of procreation, it is vital to understand that all three persons have always existed. The Nicaean Creed stresses that the Son is begotten, not made, to avoid other heretical misunderstandings like Arianism.
Just curios - why is it that so many people refer to the Christian God as "He" -- considering that a reference to the word "he" in general implies "gender"?
Our preference for Father and Son over Mother and Daughter or Parent and Child follows from orthodoxy’s demands. For the Son, this is simple enough: God has (by the aforementioned hypostatic union) come incarnate as Jesus of Nazareth, who is biologically male and motivates the masculine beyond its generic usage. Moreover, God is (pace Social Trinitarians) a single, self-conscious being, even if he relates to himself in complex ways and exists in three ways at once; these ontological modes are not simply manifestations in the way that Hindus see their gods as deriving from Brahma (this would approach the Sabellian heresy), but innate to Jehovah’s being. Hence, though maleness is strictly a property of the body belonging to only one of the hypostases, masculinity is accepted as transferring to the other persons. Anticipating his future incarnation, God has spoken of himself as Father to Moses and the prophets, that this usage pervades the scripture and was well established centuries before Christ’s coming.

One should also note another reason which could variously be considered cultural or historical. The early Jews were surrounded by idolaters, and among the chief cults in the Near East was that of the Mother Goddess, most familiar to the layman through the prolific Ishtar. For Jehovah to have described himself as a divine mother would have lent itself to identifying him and her. For the first thousand years of her existence, Jewry was ever prone to worshipping false gods, Ashtaroth (the Phoenician version of Ishtar) among them; encouraging this confusion would have been obscurantist.
…both references that are used in terms of "convenience" and therefore not intended to connote "gender" of any kind at all to the God of Christianity…"procreation" specific to "God the Father" we could consider one of the paramount characteristics that is for the most part unique to the God of Christianity. And that would be in terms of the all so very important attribute "creator" specific to this discussion that is believed by all Christians to intrinsically pertain to the God of Christianity - and that, in a matter of speaking, this vital term "creator" could arguably be loosely considered synonymous with the term "procreation".
I advise caution here. On one interpretation, this is speaking of the same things as I have described in another way, but in another, the wording lends itself to the same Sabellian heresy I have mentioned. That grammatical gender implies nothing in itself has already been noted, but describing God as Father is more than convenience, tradition or façon de parler; it embeds facts about the Godhead’s nature, also sketched above. In particular, reading ‘Father’ as ‘Creator’ has, both historically and anecdotally, confused many into inferring that ‘God the Father’ is merely God acting as creator in any capacity; orthodoxy affirms that the Son and Holy Ghost are the uncreated God, and that the Father created the universe through the Son by the Spirit. These are intrinsic to how God is, and would have been so even if he had never made the world and hence never incarnated; this understanding distinguishes belief in the Trinity from the other monotheistic faiths. You seem to avoid stumbling here, but one might.
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