Businesses in Italy soon to be permitted to require cash for payments of up to sixty euros.

[Tharthan]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/12b7 ... 85de7508fe

Italy is to use more cash and fewer credit cards, bucking a global trend towards electronic currency, after Giorgia Meloni, the prime minister, dismissed card payments as “private money”.

Meloni, who was elected in September, is finalising her first budget, which is due to include a rule allowing shopkeepers and businesses to refuse cards and demand cash for payments up to €60. The rule would raise the current limit of €30 and includes permission to sell and buy goods worth up to €5,000 in cash, up from €1,000.

Meloni has an unusual justification for supporting banknotes over plastic. She told parliament: “The only legal currency in Italy and Europe is the paper notes issued by the European Central Bank. Electronic money is not legal currency — it is a form of private money.”

[...]

Her distinction between “public” and “private” money has been backed by the European Central Bank, which is worried that the rise in plastic payments will put European economies in the hands of credit card companies.

It is quite funny that this is happening now, given the PayPal discussion that we just had.

[Lucio Chiappetti]

Funny? We have a saying "ridere per non piangere" (to laugh so as not to cry). It's a pendulum which swings between left and right (in political sense).
While personally I use real credit cards quite rarely (I do use virtual ones for all online transactions), let us say for moderately expensive buys (> 100-200 euro) when the goods are not picked up immediately, I do use (as most people) Bancomat cards (ATM card, debit card) for relatively unexpensive buys (say > 50 euro, could be even less for pharmacy and health services, where it is recommended for tax deduction ... incidentally, my dentist, who is definitely a right-wing voter, has never objected to having a POS to receive payments with credit and debit cards). Personally I do use cash for grocery (and greengrocery) shopping, but I see more and more people paying with cards, even in open air markets.

I am not so concerned by the limit on cards (may be justified by the fees between shops and banks), but on the 5000 euro limit on cash. That has no justification (surely it is not to "help the poor", which notoriously don't go around with rolls of banknotes), and simply supports dirty money laundering, and tax escape.

[Moonchild]

I say nothing wrong at all with using cash.

[Lucio Chiappetti]

Well, from the point of view of the payer, I would feel rather unsafe carrying with me more than 500 euro (incidentally the typical person cannot withdraw from an ATM more than 500 euro per day, and some 3000 per month ... if one wants to get more cash one has to go in person to a bank - and be tracked). Even before the time of ATM cards, if one had to pay a relatively large amount (say hotel for one month) one used cheques. From the point of view of the payee, getting it in cash means it is not tracked, and can be not declared to the fiscal offices.

[Moonchild]

Well, from the point of view of the payer, I would feel rather unsafe carrying with me more than 500 euro

This is only for small(er) amounts though?

From the point of view of the payee, getting it in cash means it is not tracked, and can be not declared to the fiscal offices.

What a silly notion! This is tracked in the vendor's books and administration the same way as it would be electronically with plastic. This is why receipts and bookkeeping/ledgers are a thing when being a merchant.

[Lucio Chiappetti]

Obviously you do not live in a country where tax escape is a big problem.

[Moonchild]

I've lived in many places, including places where tax evasion is a big problem.

I don't see what the problem is.
If sellers commit tax evasion and tax fraud, then that is their risk to take. As a consumer it matters not. The only thing that is different is how you complete your transaction. It'll just be more important for you to get and retain your receipts as proof of purchase, and that is all.
Also, keep in mind I'm old enough to have done ALL my purchases with cash before paying electronically became so ubiquitous. It's fine, it works. It just needs slightly different administration.

[Marcus]

Tax evasion and money laundering will not disappear with limits on cash, it's a lie.
Big corporations (and here I include organized crime a la Mafia) will always have the means to evade and launder.
The limit on cash transactions and the eventual abolition of physical cash completely is directed at us, the majority of the population; it's a tool of control.
If money is exclusively digital they can tax you at will, force you to spend (by putting negative rates), freeze your money if you misbehave (social credit anyone?) and know exactly where you are, with whom and what you say (through your smart phone which you'll need for transactions).
All this is political and Meloni's decision is so too. It's a good start, conservativism and individual freedom by stealth, let's hope she lives up to expectations.

[Tharthan]

Off-topic:

the eventual abolition of physical cash completely

I can't speak for other countries, but at least in the United States, I think that that is highly unlikely to happen for the foreseeable future.

There are a number of reasons for that, but one perhaps surprising one that I think that most people haven't considered is the continued existence, thriving, and population growth (check statistics and other data if you don't believe me on that last one) of groups like the Amish. I can definitely picture the long, drawn out legal challenges from them that would arise if our government were to attempt to completely phase out physical currency.

[Eduardo Lucas]

I've lived in many places, including places where tax evasion is a big problem.

I don't see what the problem is.
If sellers commit tax evasion and tax fraud, then that is their risk to take. As a consumer it matters not. The only thing that is different is how you complete your transaction. It'll just be more important for you to get and retain your receipts as proof of purchase, and that is all.
Also, keep in mind I'm old enough to have done ALL my purchases with cash before paying electronically became so ubiquitous. It's fine, it works. It just needs slightly different administration.

In fact i think most people who think paper currency is an issue are people who don't understand how government wants to have the tightest possible control of money so they can have the power to openly harm the economy even more than they already are able to when they wish to force ridiculous deflation and interest rates in order to curb certain sectors in the industry and small companies and/or enemy countries and give privilege to multibillionaire investors and investment funds, while giving immense bonds to certain individuals and businesses with absolutely no long term cost. Market manipulation and insider info. Most who are against printed money come from people who see finance in a Friedman/Keynes/Hayek way, which is completely wrong and economically outdated when seen in a dogmatic way (although i know some people from these camps who are completely in favour of paper, as these authors were not against it by any means)

[Tharthan]

An update:

Due to significant pressure from the EU, the Italian government has dropped its plan to permit businesses to require cash for payments of up to sixty euros.

However, the Italian government still intends to increase the limit for cash transactions to 5,000 euros, up from the current limit of 1,000 euros.

There was a curious piece covering the Italian government's move in the publication "Coda Story":

https://www.codastory.com/authoritarian ... ss-future/

Unlike, say, Scandinavia, the U.K. and the Netherlands, where many citizens have stopped carrying cash altogether, in Italy having a few euros in your pocket is a part of daily life. Italians, alongside Germans and Austrians, are among the most “cash prone” in Europe. Cash is how you pay for your morning cup of coffee, for fruit and vegetables at the grocer, for taxis, snacks and gelato. A survey in 2019 showed that 86% of transactions at the point of sale were in cash.

[...]

In 2020, the government introduced a new “Christmas cashback” scheme to try to encourage card payments, by offering people rewards and rebates. For every card payment people made up to 150 euros, the government would refund 10%. But right before the holidays this year, the country’s new hard-right prime minister Giorgia Meloni announced a budget that seemed to take Italy backwards, just as the rest of Europe, and indeed Italians, were embracing card payments — particularly contactless — in ever greater numbers.

[...]

[...] Brussels said Meloni’s plans went against Rome’s pledges to fight tax evasion, and Meloni was forced to scrap her plan to allow businesses to refuse card payments for bills below 60 euros.

Meloni still plans to push through her pledge to raise the overall legal limit for cash transactions to up to 5,000 euros. This is well below the Council of the EU’s proposed bloc-wide limit of 10,000 euros but above Italy’s previous pledges to reduce the limit to 1,000 euros by the start of the year.

[...]

“Meloni loves cash that is essentially untraceable,” said Mirella Castigli, an Italian author who has written several books on digital privacy. “But this seems not to be a right to privacy issue, but another way to give a wink to tax evaders. It’s anachronistic to say people should go back to where we were years ago.”

[...]

Covid restrictions have also helped turbocharge the world’s progression towards a cashless future, as contactless payments were encouraged as a way of stopping virus transmission [...]

“People were much more open to digital solutions and digital transformations,” said Margaris, the Swiss fintech advisor. “The adaptation [to a cashless society] was accelerated, and now people just have to digest it.” In Italy, too, Meloni will likely bow to the inevitable. But in the meantime, she has won brownie points with small business owners and those who see a cashless society as evidence of the concentration of power in the hands of government, banks and big tech.

Based upon that article, some people really do seem to treat paying for something with cash as if it were a vice or something. Listen, folks: do go ahead and pay for things how you would like, but please consider not attempting to impose your way on others who feel differently; locking them into only being able to do things your way.

I really do not see why we need to go from having many options to having fewer options when the current practice of giving people many options seems to be working pretty well.

[Moonchild]

I think ultimately it should be up to the merchant to determine what forms of payment are accepted and/or desired, and what limits they set for each (for security reasons or what not for larger amounts, for overhead reasons for small amounts, etc. etc.)
This doesn't need to be governmentally regulated, IMHO.

[LuftWafflePilot]

Why would you even think about taking away the freedom of payment method from people?
What's next? The freedom to have an abortion perhaps? Oh wait, that's already a thing in Poland...

[Tharthan]

Off-topic:
Not sure that someone calling themselves "LuftWafflePilot" ought to be bashing Poland.

[LuftWafflePilot]

What the hell are you on about?

[moonbat]

Luftwaffe (made into a waffle pun)..Poland..ring any bells?

[LuftWafflePilot]

I know what lufwaffe is. I still fail to understand the horribleness of making a funny word out of it.
Let's ban the word german, ok?
I'm from czech republic. The nazis murdered tons of us too, and we don't turn hysterical little snowflakes whenever someone mentions Germany over here.

WTF is going on?

[Lucio Chiappetti]

Unlike, say, Scandinavia, the U.K. and the Netherlands, where many citizens have stopped carrying cash altogether, in Italy having a few euros in your pocket is a part of daily life. Italians, alongside Germans and Austrians, are among the most “cash prone” in Europe. Cash is how you pay for your morning cup of coffee, for fruit and vegetables at the grocer, for taxis, snacks and gelato.

Let me say my experience as a native Italian. It is true that some people like me are used to pay "little" amounts (say below 50 euro) in cash (I pay with a debit card above that for goods I take with me, and with a credit card goods delivered later, or bought online). It seemed to me that the fuss about fees etc. would not worth for small amount (see below "the Canadian experience"). I pay with a debit card also pharmacy and medical tests (traceability helps also to have a tax rebate). I see more and more people paying their shopping with cards, not only in supermarkets, but even in the stalls of open air markets. Almost all the vendors are equipped with a POS reader. And almost all shops issue a "fiscal receipt" (scontrino fiscale), at least in Northern Italy (elsewhere I hear people complaining). It's mainly some taxi drivers which seem not to like accepting cards.

Now two experiences abroad. In the 90's while we were approaching Toronto airport, our guide said to have a few coins ready, because they were needed to pick up a baggage trolley, and will be returned when returning the trolley. Then apparently the unlocking device did not work with coins, and wanted a credit card. I was surprised to use it for about 1 Can $, and even more surprised when I got back the coin ... I thought the cost of the fees would have been too high for a non-expense, and I'd never pay the sum ... however after a couple of months it appeared in my credit card statement.
The second experience concerns Scandinavia, namely Denmark, 20 years ago. I heard they used cards for everything, and was quite surprised when, while buying an amber gift, the shopkeeper did not want to accept my card, but directed me to withdraw cash from a nearby bank. I suppose the fees for a foreign credit card were higher than those for Danish debit cards.

Anyhow, as a customer, I won't be scandalized if a shop won't accept a card for a few euros.

However, the Italian government still intends to increase the limit for cash transactions to 5,000 euros, up from the current limit of 1,000 euros.

[...]
“Meloni loves cash that is essentially untraceable,” said Mirella Castigli, an Italian author who has written several books on digital privacy. “But this seems not to be a right to privacy issue, but another way to give a wink to tax evaders. It’s anachronistic to say people should go back to where we were years ago.”

Based upon that article, some people really do seem to treat paying for something with cash as if it were a vice or something.

That is now another story. I'd personally never think to carry around 5000 euros, I won't feel safe. And moreover, I can withdraw only 500 per day.
If somebody would insist to be paid cash for a large expense, it would be an annoyance for me to get the money, and I'd think the guy would get paid "in black" and not pay his taxes. Or worst, high amounts in cash are used for money laundering. Do you think that recently arrested mafia boss Messina Denaro would have been paying with a card ? If only for the fact its second surname, Denaro, means "money"

I have really the impression the present government is caressing potential tax evaders. I'm quite upset when I hear that self-employed people below an yearly income of 85000 euro are getting a forfait flat tax of 15%. when I earn much less than that, and my marginal rate is 43%. Even more upset when I see that the inflation protection on my pension will see only a fractional revaluation with respect to the inflation rate. I have put in my e-mail signature
"A middle rank researcher at end career is not rich but is in the top 5% of the Italian income tax taxpayers. Does it not sound strange ?"

[Mæstro]

I know what lufwaffe is. I still fail to understand the horribleness of making a funny word out of it.
Let's ban the word german, ok?
I'm from czech republic. The nazis murdered tons of us too, and we don't turn hysterical little snowflakes whenever someone mentions Germany over here.

WTF is going on?

Off-topic:
I would like to thank you from the other side of the Ore Mountains. Whenever I need a tongue-in-cheek way to refer to the Romanic nations or languages, I use ‘Welsh’ (from welsch). I have been groping for a while for such a fun name for the Slavonic folks that would not cause any misunderstandings, but now I have one. You lot are hereby Waffles.

[jobbautista9]

I know what lufwaffe is. I still fail to understand the horribleness of making a funny word out of it.
Let's ban the word german, ok?
I'm from czech republic. The nazis murdered tons of us too, and we don't turn hysterical little snowflakes whenever someone mentions Germany over here.

WTF is going on?

Off-topic:
I think Tharthan simply just finds it funny that a username which has a pun on the most notorious air force of WW2 is berating Poland for banning abortion of all things to berate Poland about. I don't think he means any foul here.

It'd be like if I chose "CameraCaze" as my username and I complain about China inventing Genshin Impact, or American warships being better than Japanese ones in War Thunder (I haven't played the game, pls don't drag me on this)...