Windows 11 - and why I don't see a point in upgrading

[andyprough]

It takes me less than a minute to change something in the C programming for my window manager, rebuild it, and restart it with the new changes taking effect. I don't know much about Windows 11 or Windows anything for that matter - but am I right in assuming I wouldn't be able to do that on Windows?

If you can't do that, then I get confused as to what a developer would like about it, other than stability and being able to run your favorite programs.

On the other hand, it may be good for a developer to work in a structured environment, because you may have too much urge to tinker with things and to break your own desktop environment just to satisfy your own curiosity.

Never mind me, I'm just thinking out loud.

[athenian200]

If you can't do that, then I get confused as to what a developer would like about it, other than stability and being able to run your favorite programs.

Visual Studio has good graphical development tools, particuarly debuggers and such. Linux is mostly command line stuff like GDB, which is great for some things, but not as good for others.

On the other hand, it may be good for a developer to work in a structured environment, because you may have too much urge to tinker with things and to break your own desktop environment just to satisfy your own curiosity.

That is part of it, I guess. Linux is the OS I find I am the least productive on, though Windows historically had just enough tweaks available to not be as locked down as something like, say, macOS or ChromeOS. It was a good middle ground. Now it's like either you tinker with non-mainstream stuff on Linux that's distracting, or you get a macOS/ChromeOS like experience with everything locked out.

Honestly, what I am increasingly finding is that the most valuable thing to be able to do is switch between different operating systems when I need different things, rather than be stuck on one specific version of one thing I depend on with no alternatives available.

[andyprough]

Honestly, what I am increasingly finding is that the most valuable thing to be able to do is switch between different operating systems when I need different things, rather than be stuck on one specific version of one thing I depend on with no alternatives available.

That makes sense. I do something similar, I use a minimal window manager for my everyday workspace and pull up different VMs for some different specific needs. One reason I've been sticking with Pale Moon and Epyrus is that they fits so well into that minimalistic paradigm with predictably low memory and cpu usage.

[RealityRipple]

Maybe when Win7's source code is released, someone will find a way to merge more modern UEFI, GPU, DX12, and window manager support into it. And maybe add the grouped file transfer interface. Basically every other addition and change since 2009 has been useless garbage.

[therube]

I'm wondering what y'all think of Windows 11

Horrid, IMHO.

(I'm old school. I like things that work. XP works. Win7 works. Win8, not that I used it, probably works.
I use 7 & it looks like XP. I need something that works, that works as I want. I do not need "fancy" - I don't even have "Aero" enabled.)

10 & 11, simply do not work for me.
Not the UI, not the UX.

I like differentiation. I like to know that I am in my browser - not an "Explorer" windows, not in "who knows what".
So 10 & 11, "homogenized" as they are, simply don't work for me.


11.

So the particular machine, was 11 "S".
S mode. And it says you can disable it, so I think OK, whatever.

And I read about a method to "install" Windows without using a "MS account".

And that worked.

And then, S mode (immediately) reared its head.
OK, so I can disable it.
BUT, to disable it (I find out after the fact), you need to download some "app" (whatever an "app" is) from some "MS store" (whatever this "store" is).
OK, so I'll download it.
BUT, in order to download, you NEED to have a MS account. (Remember that from the install?)

So now, I need to create a MS account (no clue at this point what my un/pw were - & don't care), in order to disable S mode.
(Thanks for nothing. The final "app" I'll download from a "store".)


After that, I was (literally) clueless. Dumbfounded as to how to go about using this "Windows" computer. It was that much different that I couldn't go from Win 3 to 2000 to XP to Win7 to (even brief brushes with 10 were better) & carry on.

I had to "learn" how to figure out how to do (what should have been) simple operations in that OS.

And then, the whole interface (UI) is ridiculous. One part newfangled, other parts of the same procedure, traditional looking. Simply makes no sense. And all the newfangled interfaces are horrible. Even scrollbars, which may not be there at all, or at most only barely visible.

Oh, & throw in telemetry & spying & whatnot & useless software ("OneDrive", whatever that is), & not even being able, as the user of the computer, to have actual control as to what goes on with said device ...


(And the particular computer, a laptop, only had wireless - no NIC, so when, & there were, connectivity issues, it was like, don't know, it just isn't working "now". [Not my machine, so that type of attitude - your problem was fine, & left it at that.])

[Tharthan]

I've adjusted to the changes I didn't like to get the things I liked.

The thing is, I think that adjusting to the inferiority of Windows 10 for the purpose of getting a few features that might be considered preferable, and (more importantly) strongly desiring to stay on a system that continues to receive security updates, is precisely what Microsoft counted on for the majority of Windows users to adopt Windows 10.

And, unfortunately, it worked all too well. Far more people and businesses ought to have said "No" and chosen a different option, even though that option would naturally come with its own share of problems.

Now, you are faced with Windows 11 being demonstrably inferior even to Windows 10. With all due respect, what exactly is the plan when Windows 10 no longer receives support?

You are going to be left with the choice of throwing up your hands and switching to Windows 11 (or Windows 12 or whatever, which is just as likely if not more likely to turn out to be worse than Windows 11 than it is to simply fix the problems that you might have with Windows 11), OR change your main operating system to a non-Windows operating system.

If one shrugs and accepts Windows 11, and "gets used to" the lists upon lists of things that one does not like about the operating system, then, indeed, one puts oneself entirely at the mercy of modern Microsoft's incredibly foolish decision making, and leave one having to just accept whatever garbage they offer no matter how much it reeks of the odour of trash.

I don't think that there is any guarantee that that will be a sustainable approach to take in the environment that we are in. Granted, I hardly have any panacea for the situation or anything like that, but giving up on having standards for one's personal computer (and business computers, to the extent that one has ownership and control over them) does not seem like a real answer to the problems being faced today.

[Moonchild]

Now, you are faced with Windows 11 being demonstrably inferior even to Windows 10. With all due respect, what exactly is the plan when Windows 10 no longer receives support?

You are going to be left with the choice of throwing up your hands and switching to Windows 11 (or Windows 12 or whatever, which is just as likely if not more likely to turn out to be worse than Windows 11 than it is to simply fix the problems that you might have with Windows 11), OR change your main operating system to a non-Windows operating system.

The answer to that is actually quite simple: My computer, and its operating system, is primarily a tool. I don't mind using newer versions of a tool even if they have some drawbacks, as long as the tool is demonstrably suitable to the task. Conversely, I also don't mind using older version of a tool that might not be as safe to use, as long as I know how to safely use it. But I will not use a tool that is demonstrably inferior and doesn't allow me to perform my tasks as well as an older one. There is a balance, and that balance has a "dead zone" around it, i.e. an area of flex in any direction where it is still considered "in balance". I will neither unnecessarily move to a less balanced position, nor will I move outside of this balanced zone, i.e. my flex has a limit.

Non-Windows operating systems this far have not been able to provide me an environment that allows me to perform my tasks in an efficient way (or at all, or without frustration). I've tried many different types and flavours already. So the most likely outcome will be that i will remain on Windows 10 (if nothing changes otherwise), since that is (so far) the most recent version of the OS that agrees with me and remain within the balance dead zone for my personal use. Initial releases of Windows 10 did not, which is why I remained on Windows 7 for a very long time. But Windows 10 improved enough that I could move forward to it. it is possible that Windows 11, or 12, or 13 will eventually fulfil my needs. It is also possible that a different operating system will fulfil my needs. Then it is also possible that my needs will change in the future as my tasks change -- if what i need to do changes, then a different tool will be suitable or even desired/preferred. So i cannot say ahead of time what the situation will be, and i will not make any predictions.

[Sob__]

Far more people and businesses ought to have said "No" and chosen a different option, even though that option would naturally come with its own share of problems.

And that's it, the amount of problems that each solution brings. It varies for different people.

For me, upgrading (or "upgrading") to newer Windows is like taking everything I have and moving to mostly same house over the street. It's not full of termites like the old one, which is the main reason for moving. Unfortunately, it suffers from some stupid design decisions, but they are mostly fixable. Overall, it's annoying, but not too much. I know what I'm getting into, there are no hidden surprises. Switching to different OS is like moving to another continent. Much more difficult, I wouldn't be able to bring all my stuff, would have to get used to many different things, discover and deal with problems I wasn't aware of, etc. It's doable, and maybe in the end I'd like it more than what I had previously. But still, I'd rather not, because there's really no guarantee about anything.

I've been perfecting my work environment since Windows 3.11. Worflows, tools, including custom single-purpose programs or scripts. Computers are both my work and hobby. I can do everything I need lightning fast and with my eyes closed (well, not literally). If I switch to different OS, I'm throwing most of that away. It would hurt a lot. I know, because I tried before.

[fatboy]

Off-topic:
Unfortunately, Microsoft will find a way to force you to upgrade. Their tactics of taking away choice users are becoming all the more malicious. The sky's the limit with the MS Folks.

[Moonchild]

Unfortunately, Microsoft will find a way to force you to upgrade.

No, they won't.

Image1.jpg

In all seriousness though, I know just a bit too much about computers and Windows to be able to be forced into an "upgrade" I don't choose to go for.

[frostknight]

To be honest, I have actually tried most windows versions, started with windows 95 last I checked and it was windows 8.1 that broke the camels back. I honestly would have switched sooner if I had known the crap windows 8 was doing behind my back, especially because of the sheer ugliness of it. I was kind of naive then though...
Although, windows 8.1, led me down an interesting rabbit hole...

I actually at one point, began to search for a more secure OS, after someone I knew was in a meeting and asked if windows has a backdoor and the person said, everyone was speechless.

When he told me this, I looked into secure operating systems and tried distros for a while, fedora, trisquel, debian, devuan, slackware, parabola, Hyperbola.
Those are the ones I remember.

Not that you know about this, but there is one linux OS, you might like, if your hardware can use it:

https://zorin.com/os/download/

I would recommend though using either lite or core.

The pro UI is kind of meh...

Although, I don't know what features are supported in the PRO version.

But I do recall Zorin having some support for some freeware that even Ubuntu probably would have been hesitant to allow into their repos.

Just depends on your needs though. If nothing else though, you could run a VM with it and see how you feel about it. Or use an old computer.

Many options, but whatever you do, I don't recommend dual booting or solo booting until you know if you want it.

I mention dual booting also, because of the whole "windows doesn't play nice" issue that linux users sometimes have.

Anywho, just food for thought.

Windows 10 made me glad though I quit after 8.1 came out though.

I cannot even imagine how people feel about windows 11 though...

[mr tribute]

Sanjay Tandon is the founder and CEO of Paramount Defenses and was formerly a program manager at Microsoft, responsible for Active Directory Security and then Threat & Risk Assessment.

Sanjay's reaction when Panos Panay took to LinkedIn to celebrate the release of Windows 11 version 22H2:

Heartiest Congratulations Microsoft! This is truly SO exciting!
Finally, we, the world’s citizens, will have a Windows OS that’s SECURE, one that truly respects our PRIVACY, one that doesn’t send an iota of telemetry back without our explicit CONSENT, one that gives us the freedom to operate OUR computers without having to sign-up for any CLOUD account or service, one wherein the browser has secure privacy defaults and doesn’t nag us with silly shopping-points related stuff, one wherein clicking on the logon screen’s gorgeous wallpaper doesn’t automatically result in a Bing search, one wherein (all kinds of unwelcome) online content doesn’t auto-magically sneak in into the SEARCH bar, etc. etc. AND wherein monthly updates no longer need to fix dozens of security vulnerabilities especially zero-day ones.
In short, just a simple, reliable, privacy respecting, trustworthy OS. Thank you very much!

[fatboy]

Sanjay's reaction when Panos Panay took to LinkedIn to celebrate the release of Windows 11 version 22H2:

Heartiest Congratulations Microsoft! This is truly SO exciting!
Finally, we, the world’s citizens, will have a Windows OS that’s SECURE, one that truly respects our PRIVACY, one that doesn’t send an iota of telemetry back without our explicit CONSENT, one that gives us the freedom to operate OUR computers without having to sign-up for any CLOUD account or service, one wherein the browser has secure privacy defaults and doesn’t nag us with silly shopping-points related stuff, one wherein clicking on the logon screen’s gorgeous wallpaper doesn’t automatically result in a Bing search, one wherein (all kinds of unwelcome) online content doesn’t auto-magically sneak in into the SEARCH bar, etc. etc. AND wherein monthly updates no longer need to fix dozens of security vulnerabilities especially zero-day ones.
In short, just a simple, reliable, privacy respecting, trustworthy OS. Thank you very much!

I pressume Sanjay was being sarcastic, because what he saying W11 is not, it in actual fact is?

[Sob__]

I keep hoping that it's all one big joke. But it's a long one, not much hope left. Do you remember this Panay guy at Win11 launch event, where he compared Windows to family house? Your good old house which is now renovated, so not exactly the same, but you still instantly know that it's your house, it brings all those good feelings, etc. It was so touching, one would almost cry. Then I tried to install it and yeah, I almost cried. In a different way, unfortunately. It's more like family house after squatters lived in for a year. Not hopeless, can still be saved, but nothing to be excited about.

[mtosev]

I have upgraded to Windows 11 one year ago this month.
This was the first time for me upgrading from an older version to a newer OS version. I only did fresh installs until now.
The upgrade went smoothly. Everything that I use works without any problems. Running Android apps inside Windows is an interesting feature which I sadly haven't been able to try because of my location (I'm not located in the US). I'm also interested if DirectStorage brings any benefits as I have a supported graphics card and an NVMe drive.
I noticed some changes in the OS but they didn't change or remove anything that I cared about so I'm satisfied with it.

[fatboy]

Off-topic:

A few years ago I came across this program. It allows you to manually remove certain telemetry apps etc from W10. It drastically improves one's privacy. I was using W10 for work (which was hilarious since we worked with confidential documents), but I wanted W10 to be as private as can be. Even though I know it's like putting blinds on windows in a glass house.
This app also allows you to see just a little bit more at how severe the surveillance is on W10.

https://www.w10privacy.de/english-home/

[frostknight]

Sanjay Tandon is the founder and CEO of Paramount Defenses and was formerly a program manager at Microsoft, responsible for Active Directory Security and then Threat & Risk Assessment.

Sanjay's reaction when Panos Panay took to LinkedIn to celebrate the release of Windows 11 version 22H2:

Heartiest Congratulations Microsoft! This is truly SO exciting!
Finally, we, the world’s citizens, will have a Windows OS that’s SECURE, one that truly respects our PRIVACY, one that doesn’t send an iota of telemetry back without our explicit CONSENT, one that gives us the freedom to operate OUR computers without having to sign-up for any CLOUD account or service, one wherein the browser has secure privacy defaults and doesn’t nag us with silly shopping-points related stuff, one wherein clicking on the logon screen’s gorgeous wallpaper doesn’t automatically result in a Bing search, one wherein (all kinds of unwelcome) online content doesn’t auto-magically sneak in into the SEARCH bar, etc. etc. AND wherein monthly updates no longer need to fix dozens of security vulnerabilities especially zero-day ones.
In short, just a simple, reliable, privacy respecting, trustworthy OS. Thank you very much!

Sanjay must have went to the same school of trolling as I did a while back.

Well... somewhat,

I don't just do sarcasm, I also do nonsense, when I feel like sarcasm doesn't do much.

This all being said, hasn't microsoft, done more than enough planned obsolescence on the software and hardware sides?

Why would they now need to ALSO deprecate hardware than is older than 8th gen intel...

This is beyond crazy... although, I think I recall someone saying they are moving to a more subscription based way of doing things.

Smh...

[moonbat]

Sanjay must have went to the same school of trolling as I did a while back

lin
Please don't quote entire nested previous posts to reply, if you want to reply to a specific line you can selectively quote it. (from the page where you compose a reply, at the bottom it shows all previous replies with a quote button (") at the top right of each one. Select the line you want to quote and hit the quote button on that post)

[frostknight]

Sanjay must have went to the same school of trolling as I did a while back

lin
Please don't quote entire nested previous posts to reply, if you want to reply to a specific line you can selectively quote it. (from the page where you compose a reply, at the bottom it shows all previous replies with a quote button (") at the top right of each one. Select the line you want to quote and hit the quote button on that post)

Yeah... quick note, I had absolutely zero idea this option existed.

I certainly have egg on my face.

Thanks for the info

[moonbat]

You just again did the same thing

Also note that this is useful for multiple quotes instead of making separate replies. You can select and quote from different previous comments in your reply so it's all in one place.