Windows 11 - and why I don't see a point in upgrading

[Moonchild]

Just to keep myself informed about Windows 11 that users will be using Pale Moon on, I've installed it in a VM to get a first hand look at what all has been done to the UI as well as testing the browser on it.

Regardless of whether I can upgrade to Windows 11 or not on my hardware (which I officially can't because of TPM 2.0 among other things), my experience with the OS has been a lot of frustration about... pretty much quality-of-life improvements Microsoft has made over the years for users. Aside from that, performance seems to be abysmal in comparison whenever you manipulate UI elements.
A few things that stand out:

• The taskbar context menu is gone. It now only has "taskbar settings".. I mean... wtf. Why even bother having a context menu if all it has is a single entry to just forward you to the settings "app". Context menus are there for options you use with some regularity - changing the settings of an item isn't one of them; you generally do that once to set it to your preference and that's it. Ftr: I use it very regularly to open task manager, if nothing else.
• I extremely regularly use drag&drop to running programs on the task bar to feed files to applications. Windows 11... just doesn't allow it, period.
• I just... can't get used to the new start "pane". I have several hundred applications installed on my main workstation but even in the bare bones VM I already ran into the issue I couldn't quickly find what I needed because it's ... pretty much made like a web search engine? In fact it looks eerily similar to the Bing home page There are no ways to organise applications aside from the single, unorganized "pinned apps" in a fixed-sized pane, and going through the "all items" list view would just be a pain if you have more than a few applications installed as well. I know there's tools to restore earlier versions of the start menu, but I'm just talking about the flat-out downgrade feel of the user experience when using Windows 11 out of the box compared to Windows 10.
• Forced grouping of application windows. I tend to have a more classical approach to not group windows (because I often have multiple copies of applications open like editors, and having to go through a grouped icon to access individual instances is a pain) but in Windows 11 that can't be done. You can neither keep the items ungrouped, nor can you resize the task bar to fit more items if it becomes necessary.
• Explorer folder icons no longer show quick previews of contents. Seriously, making 50 items looking exactly the same makes a thumbnail view in explorer pretty pointless. May as well have a list view in that case
• I still don't necessarily want to link my computer account to a Microsoft account -- if for nothing else the reason that i want to be able to use my OS even if I don't have an internet connection.
• Telemetry gathering is obviously a concern too, although I don't let this be a determining factor by itself.

But my main issue with it is that... it also doesn't offset all those things with improvements to my workflow. as in... at all. It feels very much like these things were changed for the sake of change and to push a new version despite there being no actual improvements that couldn't have been done on Windows 10.
Yes i like rounded corners, but Windows for me is still primarily an interface to my computer. It's not a design or fashion statement (and even if it was I would like to pick my own attire, thank you very much) so any of those superficial changes really don't do anything for my actual use of my computer.

I'm wondering what y'all think of Windows 11 -- does it actually fill a need you have that Windows 10 didn't? If you upgraded, did you do it because you really wanted to? Are you regretting it or are you happy with the result? Am i missing some obvious advantage here? It just feels like a lot of stuff was removed and changed just to "make it different" but it just ended up being simplified. In an OS (and in a browser too) having some targeted redundancy in ways to achieve things for users is a good thing. Removing that redundancy isn't improving anything in many cases, especially if the one method to do something is cumbersome and requiring a lot of interaction. Of course having too much redundancy in that way is a dangerous pitfall too (looking at you, Linux!) so it should be targeted and carefully-planned. But that doesn't seem to be what has happened here - Windows 11 seems to try and push everyone to one Glorious Singular Way of Doing Everything™ but that doesn't work very well for an OS used in many different environments by many different ages, schools and professions of users. The buzzword around Windows 11 seems to be "streamlining" but streamlining as a term also implies you can do things quickly and without much effort. Over-simplifying the look of a UI generally means the opposite...

Anyway.. Just thought I'd throw this out there to just have a chat. I'm not looking for this to blow up into some heated argument of this vs. that either so please do try to remain open to things you may not necessarily want to use yourself. I know there are plenty of people who would like to just use 1 system they are used to until the end of time, and that's fine, but wouldn't really add much to the discussion in this case.

[Pentium4User]

I gave Windows 11 a try, just to try it out and see how it works, but I never planned to use it and I still don't. For me, a computer should work like I want and I used Windows XP, Vista, 7, 8 (short) and 10. All of them have their advantages and disadvantages, but I really hate when the developer of an OS tries to control me or tries to spy me out. I don't like to connect my computer to an MS account, but this is officially mandatory for Windows 11 and also 10 Home.
I don't have a benefit from this and I don't like the disadvantages. I use Linux since 2015 and since 2017 I don't use Windows anymore as a daily driver, just for tests and very special tasks.
The reason is rather easy: It isn't that annoying because the developers don't try to push me to certain things like a mandatory online account to use the OS.

[FranklinDM]

I tried it a few weeks ago and while I liked the UI, there's just far too many customization options that they've removed, particularly moving the location of the taskbar. I'm used to having it on top of the screen and needing to install a bunch of other apps just to get it back is a hassle. Even 7+ Taskbar Tweaker is semi-broken. Another issue that I've is their expansion of Edge WebView to many parts of the OS - I'm just not comfortable with having Edge always running on the background, eating CPU cycles and being a memory hog.

On the other hand, I'm starting to get accustomed to Linux (Manjaro), but since I game and I also have a lot of other programs that run only on Windows, I can't fully switch yet.

[athenian200]

Yeah, I don't see a point in upgrading now, but if a time comes when my choice is between upgrading or getting no security updates, I will likely reluctantly upgrade. Though at that point I may be spending more time on OpenIndiana than on Windows, only booting into it if I need it.

Maybe Windows 12 will be about by 2025, and it will address some of the concerns. If possible, maybe I'll skip 11 in favor of 12. I'm pretty happy with Windows 10, though. I don't think I could ever go back to 7, it's missing too many features for me, there's a lot of software that won't run on it, I have newer hardware, etc. I mean... I've seen those people on the MSFN forums as far back as the Windows XP days trying to keep Windows 98 on life support, I know how pathetic and ridiculous it eventually gets trying to run an ancient version of Windows that no longer supports modern hardware, relies on drivers from some random person in China and hacked together kernel extensions. Newer Windows getting bad will mean for me, that I stay on the older version until security updates run out, reluctantly upgrade to the newer version, and probably spend less time using it over something like OpenIndiana.

But yeah, I've been using Windows 10 since it came out and been happy with it, despite most people's complaints about it. I've been making it work for me for several years, and I would prefer to stay on it as long as I can. It seems like despite a few hiccups here and there it generally is getting more solid over time, especially since they've started to focus on stability more with 10 and moved more of the bigger changes over to Windows 11.

[vannilla]

Explorer folder icons no longer show quick previews of contents. Seriously, making 50 items looking exactly the same makes a thumbnail view in explorer pretty pointless. May as well have a list view in that case

In GNOME-land (the Linux desktop environment circle of users) for the past 30 (give or take) years people have been complaining how the file explorer still lacks a thumbnail view, whereas users are forced into a list view with a side panel for image previews. All users have pretty much said, in one form or another, that "Windows had a thumbnail view since before GTK existed, why can't we have it too???" and for unknown reasons the GTK and GNOME developers did nothing on the matter.

I find it really unsettling that Microsoft is downgrading something they've been doing correctly for the past 30 years or so.

[lucas_jooj]

I had the same complaints about the QoL downgrades in Windows 11; not ideal but installing https://github.com/valinet/ExplorerPatcher + Open-Shell made the taskbar usable again to me

[Moonchild]

I had the same complaints about the QoL downgrades in Windows 11; not ideal but installing https://github.com/valinet/ExplorerPatcher + Open-Shell made the taskbar usable again to me

I get that, but my main issue is that it's only offering downgrades that you need to address with third party software or hacks, but doesn't actually improve anything substantial that would compel me to use it. unless I'm missing something obvious?

[van p]

Is W11 being, or going to be at some point, forced on computers that meet the technical requirements?

[Toa-Nuva]

From what I heard, Windows 11 has a newer version of WSL which directly supports linux GUI applications. That's the only thing I heard so far that made me even consider the Windows 11 upgrade so far. But I haven't made the jump yet, and probably won't in the near future.

[Moonchild]

From what I heard, Windows 11 has a newer version of WSL which directly supports linux GUI applications.

That's a pretty niche thing -- i certainly have no use for running Linux GUI applications natively on my Windows. I don't think 99% of people do.

[athenian200]

From what I heard, Windows 11 has a newer version of WSL which directly supports linux GUI applications. That's the only thing I heard so far that made me even consider the Windows 11 upgrade so far. But I haven't made the jump yet, and probably won't in the near future.

Well, I guess that means I could theoretically compile/test the Linux version of Pale Moon without leaving Windows or firing up a VM. I believe the Linux support is actually a byproduct of having an Android compatibility layer, though.

It's kind of sad that that's the best thing I can say about Windows 11, though. That it can run stuff that's not designed for Windows. I had a theory at one point that it seems like Microsoft could be winding down Windows as a consumer product because they make all their money on the cloud now rather than Windows sales. In that view, the goal of something like Windows 11 is to be a stopgap until people can migrate over to Linux or Android, as more and more people move away from Windows towards ChromeOS and Android, which Microsoft has seemingly accepted as inevitable.

Of course, the goal could be the exact opposite... trying to attract users away from Linux, Android, and ChromeOS. Who really knows, maybe it's positioned so that they'll seem to have made the right call whether it succeeds or fails.

Either way, Windows 11 is depressing for me as someone who owns a Windows Phone and was a fan of Windows 8 and 10, but probably in a different way than for the people who have hated every Windows version released in the past 10 years. The last two versions of Windows really had a bold vision, Microsoft was still trying at that point to push their own technologies. They had the live tiles, they wanted their own mobile OS, they even had an independent Microsoft Edge that they wanted to push. Maybe a lot of people didn't like that vision, maybe they thought it was contrived, stupid, spyware, etc... but it was still there as something distinct from everything else, Windows was clearly recognizable as a Microsoft product with its own design philosophy, even if it was very touch-focused and didn't cater to power users.

Windows 11 is... it's just not Windows anymore. I can barely tell a difference between it and ChromeOS or MacOS, or GNOME 40+. They all look EXACTLY the same. That's the only way I can put it, and it feels like trying to rebel against Microsoft with one of the major alternatives would be almost meaningless. Even Microsoft doesn't care if you're interested in Linux anymore... you can run Linux stuff through WSL, you can run Android through their compatibility layer, and you can do pretty much anything ChromeOS would allow through Microsoft Edge. ChomeOS is also basically just Chrome and Android running on top of a Linux kernel, and you can even semi-officially sideload Linux on a lot of Chromebooks I think. And Linux is pretty much GNOME 40+ running on Wayland for most people, you can run Windows applications in WINE, etc.

I think no one cares about the OS anymore because it's just seen as something you use to get to your browser, and we all know what the situation is on that front. It's like they just don't care anymore, everything they put out is so... lacking in personality and doesn't really give you a sense of any of the projects being about anything different or having a vision of any kind, even a boring or corporate one. It's like they just made the OS to make it, so they could say "There, we're still here, we did it, there's a new version that follows current design trends and is keeping up with stuff. Happy?"

In general, it feels like the best alternatives these days are the less well-known ones that are barely hanging on, they're really the only ones worth using. All the big players have so little to offer.

[LuftWafflePilot]

Thanks Moonchild, you saved me time that would be much better spent... doing anything else.
This is pure WTF.
I guess Windows 13 will have the UI customizations of a pocket calculator?

[dbsoft]

While there have been some changes in Windows 11 that are "WTF??" to me, on the whole I like the interface. It feels more like the MacOS interface that I prefer and that is a good thing. The hardware requirements however are another WTF?? moment.... not a single one of my machines could support Windows 11 officially at the time of release. I had to upgrade my first generation Ryzen processor in my main Windows development machine to officially install it. So far after that upgrade, it is the only machine I have currently running Windows 11, because it is the only one that officially supports it. I may upgrade others in the future, via unofficial means, but at this point it isn't a given. I was also very disappointed when the 2022 update was released, I had to jump through hoops to get it to install the update. (SFC and DISM hackery).

So needless to say my feelings are mixed. I enjoy running it on my main Windows development machine, but Microsoft's myopic hardware requirements and less than smooth update mechanisms have left a sour taste in my mouth.

A few of the issues mentioned in the original post were addressed in the 2022 update like: "Explorer folder icons no longer show quick previews of contents."

Most of the other issues mentioned I don't do:

* I drag and drop things to the applications, but I rarely have more than one instance of an app open that I would be dragging and dropping.
* They changed the start pane in the 2022 update, but I can't tell if the changes fix your issue. The start menu is essentially alphabetized, I don't think you can organize it arbitrarily like some old versions of Windows, but I would alphabetize it by hand so to me this is an improvement.
* Task bar context menu: I don't understand why they changed this, I used to use it to launch the task manager all the time, but instead I just pinned the task manager to the bar... and the 2022 update brought in a new task manager design that I really like.
* I don't know if this is because I upgraded from Windows 10 with a local account, but I am still using a local account and do not have a Microsoft account linked to it. If a fresh install forces you to link to a Microsoft account I would be very unhappy.
* Seems to me telemetry was an issue with Windows 10 as well, so not sure if that should be a reason not to upgrade.

[lucas_jooj]

[ but doesn't actually improve anything substantial that would compel me to use it. unless I'm missing something obvious?

I have the same feelings regard w11, the only positives I heard is that the "gaming experience" improved from w10. Microsoft must not be doing so well with the Xbox division to prioritize this stuff rather than pretty much anything that feels more relevant than a small summer w10 update.

From what I remember of the Windows 11 detailed stream reveal, the biggest features were the improved multitasking windows layout (that I never used and does not compensate for the taskbar to not have the basic options to drag-&-drop and never combine windows) and the native android apps support, which would be good if it did not take a whole 6 months after release to come and it had google play apps support instead of amazon store

[leothetechguy]

I always stay on the latest version of software, just to make sure there are no security vulnerabilities on my system, but I agree, I don't see a point in upgrading just because of all the downgrades disguised as Features.

Here are some fun facts about the system:

• The new Win 11 taskbar is just an overlay on top of the old one, you can disable it with some Registry Hacks revealing how nothing changed.

• Microsoft Edge has been forced as the default browser for searching and visiting links using a custom URL handler (along with bing as the only search provider in windows search)

[suissant]

From what I heard, Windows 11 has a newer version of WSL which directly supports linux GUI applications. That's the only thing I heard so far that made me even consider the Windows 11 upgrade so far. But I haven't made the jump yet, and probably won't in the near future.

Well, I guess that means I could theoretically compile/test the Linux version of Pale Moon without leaving Windows or firing up a VM. I believe the Linux support is actually a byproduct of having an Android compatibility layer, though.

It's kind of sad that that's the best thing I can say about Windows 11, though. That it can run stuff that's not designed for Windows. I had a theory at one point that it seems like Microsoft could be winding down Windows as a consumer product because they make all their money on the cloud now rather than Windows sales. In that view, the goal of something like Windows 11 is to be a stopgap until people can migrate over to Linux or Android, as more and more people move away from Windows towards ChromeOS and Android, which Microsoft has seemingly accepted as inevitable.

Of course, the goal could be the exact opposite... trying to attract users away from Linux, Android, and ChromeOS. Who really knows, maybe it's positioned so that they'll seem to have made the right call whether it succeeds or fails.

Either way, Windows 11 is depressing for me as someone who owns a Windows Phone and was a fan of Windows 8 and 10, but probably in a different way than for the people who have hated every Windows version released in the past 10 years. The last two versions of Windows really had a bold vision, Microsoft was still trying at that point to push their own technologies. They had the live tiles, they wanted their own mobile OS, they even had an independent Microsoft Edge that they wanted to push. Maybe a lot of people didn't like that vision, maybe they thought it was contrived, stupid, spyware, etc... but it was still there as something distinct from everything else, Windows was clearly recognizable as a Microsoft product with its own design philosophy, even if it was very touch-focused and didn't cater to power users.

Windows 11 is... it's just not Windows anymore. I can barely tell a difference between it and ChromeOS or MacOS, or GNOME 40+. They all look EXACTLY the same. That's the only way I can put it, and it feels like trying to rebel against Microsoft with one of the major alternatives would be almost meaningless. Even Microsoft doesn't care if you're interested in Linux anymore... you can run Linux stuff through WSL, you can run Android through their compatibility layer, and you can do pretty much anything ChromeOS would allow through Microsoft Edge. ChomeOS is also basically just Chrome and Android running on top of a Linux kernel, and you can even semi-officially sideload Linux on a lot of Chromebooks I think. And Linux is pretty much GNOME 40+ running on Wayland for most people, you can run Windows applications in WINE, etc.

I think no one cares about the OS anymore because it's just seen as something you use to get to your browser, and we all know what the situation is on that front. It's like they just don't care anymore, everything they put out is so... lacking in personality and doesn't really give you a sense of any of the projects being about anything different or having a vision of any kind, even a boring or corporate one. It's like they just made the OS to make it, so they could say "There, we're still here, we did it, there's a new version that follows current design trends and is keeping up with stuff. Happy?"

In general, it feels like the best alternatives these days are the less well-known ones that are barely hanging on, they're really the only ones worth using. All the big players have so little to offer.

I think you're wrong when you say "No one cares about the OS anymore because it's just seen as something you use to get to your browser..." I use my computer mostly for gaming (I guess I'm still young and that could change in the future) and the reason most people use Windows is because it's the platform most AAA games are made for. 90% of the AAA games still made for the PC are made for windows ONLY. So, for people who still owns and buys PCs (laptops included) windows is the only OS where they can play their games. I'm not saying these people are the majority, and they're certainly diminishing every day, but it's still a factor why people use Windows.

[athenian200]

I think you're wrong when you say "No one cares about the OS anymore because it's just seen as something you use to get to your browser..." I use my computer mostly for gaming (I guess I'm still young and that could change in the future) and the reason most people use Windows is because it's the platform most AAA games are made for. 90% of the AAA games still made for the PC are made for windows ONLY. So, for people who still owns and buys PCs (laptops included) windows is the only OS where they can play their games. I'm not saying these people are the majority, and they're certainly diminishing every day, but it's still a factor why people use Windows.

I was actually just exaggerating a bit, and focused more on the motivation of companies than of individual users. I meant that's how Microsoft, Red Hat, Apple, etc... feel about the OS. They mean there's no money in making the OS better because all the money is on cloud and mobile now, and PC users are demanding and a minority. I would agree that a lot of gamers probably do care about Windows, I mean... the main reason I am still on Windows even though I try to use an alternate OS I dual-boot is still because of PC gaming, and also just Microsoft's development tools being better for debugging overall.

Come to think of it, I also still need Microsoft Office. So yeah, I actually fall into pretty much all three categories of people still using a PC... I'm a gamer and programmer, that uses Microsoft Office heavily. Sometimes... I've actually been in situations where I was talking to people in Skype calls while playing Minecraft and making a note of in-game data on an Excel spreadsheet, using Bing to look things up as I went. Yeah... getting away from Microsoft might be a little harder for me than most. Especially since I don't really like Apple or Google.

[suissant]

I don't exactly care about Widnows. I care about the games. But I understand what you're meaning.

[Moonchild]

I actually fall into pretty much all three categories of people still using a PC... I'm a gamer and programmer, that uses Microsoft Office heavily. Sometimes... I've actually been in situations where I was talking to people in Skype calls while playing Minecraft and making a note of in-game data on an Excel spreadsheet, using Bing to look things up as I went. Yeah... getting away from Microsoft might be a little harder for me than most.

I think a lot of Windows users are in the same situation -- but that's not necessarily because Microsoft forces you to use their stuff; it's simply because what has come out of Microsoft in the past (and which they are still riding heavily on) is simply dam good. I also don't think that makes PC users demanding, per se, just expectant of the quality they have always paid good money for when buying Windows.
I mean: there are alternatives for all of it. There's libreoffice, there's other search engines, etc.
But why would you switch to an alternative that is inferior? I guess that's my point here about Windows 11 -- it flat-out feels inferior to what I am already using; there's change, and I'm used to that, but the changes this time have only been for the worse. It's also why I flat-out skipped Windows 8 and 8.1, as to me, having zero interest in mobile/tablet computing at the time, there was no added value over 7. I could still see it beneficial for others and come 8.1 I could switch to it if I needed to.
Not so with Windows 10 that did add things I wanted and I've adjusted to the changes I didn't like to get the things I liked. It's a balance. There has to be something in both scales for it to be attractive. I just don't see what's positive about Windows 11 that, once again, would be useful for me. And unlike Windows 8 where I could see the focus on a workflow that would greatly benefit mobile use, I don't even see that now. It just looks like key elements of the UI were given a quick surface gloss-over to make it more like Mac, and losing essential functionality in the process.

[Eduardo Lucas]

As i need absolute security for the time being due to work-related purposes, i had to switch. Now on GhostBSD and using white star from dbsoft. Don't think i will make the effort to go back for personal use, because it is horridly unfeasible to almost lock a windows 7 machine and have internet connection on it at the same time for keeping security possible in the "level' i need to. I like linux and used it so many times in the past for personal stuff but too much undocummented stuff which annoys me in every distro, i simply do not have the patience to "learn' reading tons of stuff which are not structured for learning as i did when i was 14-17 because my time is short. I like SunOS-like systems but i don't have hardware to run them. I will still have to deal with linux and windows for other work purposes, but not on my personal-work machine. Other OSes are too locked or lack software/OS technical capabilities i think are vital.