The "Post-PC" era (smartphones)

[Mæstro]

I only use my primary laptop while in bed. Keeping it there and using it wrapped in my blankets is more comfortable than sitting upright in a chair to use my secondary one, which can become rather tiring after several hours. Depending on where I am staying, I might leave my main computer in the corner of the bed or just beside it at night. It sits on a raised platform to ventilate it. I never use, or feel the need or want to use, the internet when I am not home or at an hotel. I read books when I am out instead. Restaurants here never bother to update their opening hours on their website, so it is not as if there were any useful information to be had online while out.

[frostknight]

Not really. "degoogled" a misnomer since it will still rely heavily on google.
Using Graphene as an example, it's an android rebuild using the latest google android version and even requires a google pixel phone.
And that's not even mentioning that it will use a stock google webview browser, and google flutter or electron apps.

Degoogled to me means most of the spyware tentacles are removed, disabled or made largely useless.

It doesn't mean it isn't still a google product in some form it just means the surveillance aspects are greatly deminished

[moonbat]

it just means the surveillance aspects are greatly deminished

No, they are non existent. It is designed as a secure phone from the ground up, and based on Android because practicability matters. No one today is going to create a new operating system from scratch and expect a developer/user ecosystem to spring up for it automatically. They chose Pixel because it meets their strict list of security requirements.

Non-exhaustive list of requirements for future devices, which are standards met or exceeded by current Pixel devices:

Support for using alternate operating systems including full hardware security functionality
Complete monthly Android Security Bulletin patches without any regular delays longer than a week for device support code (firmware, drivers and HALs)
At least 5 years of updates from launch for device support code with phones (Pixels now have 7) and 7 years with tablets
Device support code updated to new monthly, quarterly and yearly releases of AOSP within several months to provide new security improvements (Pixels receive these in the month they're released)
Linux 6.1, 6.6 or 6.12 Generic Kernel Image (GKI) support
Hardware accelerated virtualization usable by GrapheneOS (ideally pKVM to match Pixels but another usable implementation may be acceptable)
Hardware memory tagging (ARM MTE or equivalent)
Hardware-based coarse grained Control Flow Integrity (CFI) for baseline coverage where type-based CFI isn't used or can't be deployed (BTI/PAC, CET IBT or equivalent)
PXN, SMEP or equivalent
PAN, SMAP or equivalent
Isolated radios (cellular, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, NFC, etc.), GPU, SSD, media encode / decode, image processor and other components
Support for A/B updates of both the firmware and OS images with automatic rollback if the initial boot fails one or more times
Verified boot with rollback protection for firmware
Verified boot with rollback protection for the OS (Android Verified Boot)
Verified boot key fingerprint for yellow boot state displayed with a secure hash (non-truncated SHA-256 or better)
StrongBox keystore provided by secure element
Hardware key attestation support for the StrongBox keystore
Attest key support for hardware key attestation to provide pinning support
Weaver disk encryption key derivation throttling provided by secure element
Insider attack resistance for updates to the secure element (Owner user authentication required before updates are accepted)
Inline disk encryption acceleration with wrapped key support
64-bit-only device support code
Wi-Fi anonymity support including MAC address randomization, probe sequence number randomization and no other leaked identifiers
Support for disabling USB data and also USB as a whole at a hardware level in the USB controller
Reset attack mitigation for firmware-based boot modes such as fastboot mode zeroing memory left over from the OS and delaying opening up attack surface such as USB functionality until that's completed
Debugging features such as JTAG or serial debugging must be inaccessible while the device is locked

[Gemmaugr]

Not really. "degoogled" a misnomer since it will still rely heavily on google.
Using Graphene as an example, it's an android rebuild using the latest google android version and even requires a google pixel phone.
And that's not even mentioning that it will use a stock google webview browser, and google flutter or electron apps.

Degoogled to me means most of the spyware tentacles are removed, disabled or made largely useless.

It doesn't mean it isn't still a google product in some form it just means the surveillance aspects are greatly deminished

Degoogled to me means removing google. It's in the name. So it should really only apply to something like yourself and changing the programs you use. Removing google from your life. Degoogling a google product would be contradictory. It also hollows out the entire concept if you can use google while trying to avoid google..

[moonbat]

Well, in the smartphone context there's always Apple

Or a bunch of half assed Linux based implementations on overpriced and underpowered hardware that are advertised as not usable as daily drivers.

[Mæstro]

Degoogled to me means removing google. It's in the name. So it should really only apply to something like yourself and changing the programs you use. Removing google from your life. Degoogling a google product would be contradictory. It also hollows out the entire concept if you can use google while trying to avoid google..

In context, most people use degoogle, as applied to software, to mean removing functionality which interacts with Google. Hence, a degoogled Android version removes any software which requires Google services to function, like the Play Store, removes the need to hold a Google account to use the device and removes any capacity for the software to transmit data to Google. No matter what Google decides to do, a degoogled software user’s experience is undisturbed. The Android source code and Pixel hardware already exist and are there to be used freely. That Google was involved in their development is simply an historical fact. I think most people here would say, by analogy, that Pale Moon has demozilla’d itself.

[Gemmaugr]

Degoogled to me means removing google. It's in the name. So it should really only apply to something like yourself and changing the programs you use. Removing google from your life. Degoogling a google product would be contradictory. It also hollows out the entire concept if you can use google while trying to avoid google..

In context, most people use degoogle, as applied to software, to mean removing functionality which interacts with Google. Hence, a degoogled Android version removes any software which requires Google services to function, like the Play Store, removes the need to hold a Google account to use the device and removes any capacity for the software to transmit data to Google. No matter what Google decides to do, a degoogled software user’s experience is undisturbed. The Android source code and Pixel hardware already exist and are there to be used freely. That Google was involved in their development is simply an historical fact. I think most people here would say, by analogy, that Pale Moon has demozilla’d itself.

It still sounds wrong and can give people a false sense of "fighting google" when they're not. Anyway, it's not just a historic fact, they're still actively choosing to partake in googles present eco-system, that further shapes what they use, how they use it, and helps google continue their nefarious tactics. Shrinking privacy and alternatives for others, while increasing the mono-culture. It's essentially removing the teeth on a hyena and trying to keep it as a pet.

[Mæstro]

I agree with you about the dangers of appearing to fight Google without actually doing so and the real problem in browser monoculture. In the summer, I joined a community called Reject Convenience surrounding a titular YouTube channel which encourages smartphone-free life and internet privacy. The videos themselves are good, and I was even considering recommending it here for a time, but I found the community, not to its fault, rather too bound up with continued, albeit reduced smartphone and SNS use despite the problems for me to feel at home in the way I do here. Just today, I found myself honestly suspecting the WIkimedia Foundation, of all people, forgot that non-Chromium browsers exist.

But degoogling really insulates the user from Google. Ungoogled Chromium is my browser of last resort (although I might consider replacing it for this purpose with Firefox ESR, a topic for another post). I am using a version which I think is some years old now. As far as I am concerned, Google may as well have rotten away the instant after releasing the code for Chromium 104, like what happened to Netscape in the nineties. The browser has no business with Google, and Google has no business with the browser. This is not the case for someone using Chrome proper, even one who has kept using Chrome 104 all this time. His browser is associated with a Google account, phones home in all the obvious ways and so on. Degoogling neuters the hyena.

[Gemmaugr]

I agree with you about the dangers of appearing to fight Google without actually doing so and the real problem in browser monoculture. In the summer, I joined a community called Reject Convenience surrounding a titular YouTube channel which encourages smartphone-free life and internet privacy. The videos themselves are good, and I was even considering recommending it here for a time, but I found the community, not to its fault, rather too bound up with continued, albeit reduced smartphone and SNS use despite the problems for me to feel at home in the way I do here. Just today, I found myself honestly suspecting the WIkimedia Foundation, of all people, forgot that non-Chromium browsers exist.

While I'm all aboard for the Reject Convenience talking points, I would have issues with their forum rules. Especially 1a and 1b.
I did bookmark the youtube channel when you last mentioned it though. I'm sad to hear that they would still use smartphones however (no idea what SNS is).

I wouldn't be surprised if the wiki-founder-rejected site wikipedia had abandoned anything but google chromium, since 80% (95% if you include Web Kit, which Blink forked from, as they are very similar) of visitors use google chromium-like browsers (including "degoogled" ones. Which is where my above post come in. Using degoogled browsers and stuff still helps google).

But degoogling really insulates the user from Google. Ungoogled Chromium is my browser of last resort (although I might consider replacing it for this purpose with Firefox ESR, a topic for another post). I am using a version which I think is some years old now. As far as I am concerned, Google may as well have rotten away the instant after releasing the code for Chromium 104, like what happened to Netscape in the nineties. The browser has no business with Google, and Google has no business with the browser. This is not the case for someone using Chrome proper, even one who has kept using Chrome 104 all this time. His browser is associated with a Google account, phones home in all the obvious ways and so on. Degoogling neuters the hyena.

It may protect them from a few certain aspects of google, as individuals, but they'd still help propagate googles overall influence and tactics on others, that are not so protected.
Neutering something would stop propagation, which isn't the case here. They'd still be able to pee all over the living room and rear their young in the bedroom. To stretch the analogy.

[frostknight]

No, they are non existent. It is designed as a secure phone from the ground up, and based on Android because practicability matters. No one today is going to create a new operating system from scratch and expect a developer/user ecosystem to spring up for it automatically. They chose Pixel because it meets their strict list of security requirements.

Even more reason to consider them degoogled phones then.

[Gemmaugr]

No, they are non existent. It is designed as a secure phone from the ground up, and based on Android because practicability matters. No one today is going to create a new operating system from scratch and expect a developer/user ecosystem to spring up for it automatically. They chose Pixel because it meets their strict list of security requirements.

Even more reason to consider them degoogled phones then.

Decaffeinated coffee is still coffee. Decarbonated soda is still soda. Desalinated water is still water. etc

[Moonchild]

Android is simply ubiquitous. Compare it to having the same clips to close your bread bag with no matter the type or brand of bread.
If you want to get away from that in a purist approach your options are extremely limited. Mozilla tried with FirefoxOS and failed hard. Other efforts were minimal. Alternatives otherwise are proprietary like iOS or manufacturer OSes.
Android or rather the Open Source Android variant isn't necessarily tied to any service or provider. You can use it as a base and have full control over it doing any Google stuff or not, so in effect you can fully de-Google it, even if the source has been maintained by Google.

[Mæstro]

Decaffeinated coffee is still coffee. Decarbonated soda is still soda. Desalinated water is still water. etc

These examples are curious, for they all suggest different things to me. Decaffeinated coffee is still coffee because it still derives from the coffee bean and maintains the same flavour. ‘Decarbonated soda’ is absurd; soda water without carbonic acid is just water, fizzy drinks (US English soda) just diluted, possibly sweetened juice (ideally) or perhaps a sampling from the Merck Index. Meanwhile, pure freshwater has no salt; desalination removes the salt from natural brine, which is necessary to make the water potable, an important difference! I think the last of these is closest to what we intend by degoogling, while the first is nearer what you mean. Is that about right?

While I'm all aboard for the Reject Convenience talking points, I would have issues with their forum rules. Especially 1a and 1b.
I did bookmark the youtube channel when you last mentioned it though. I'm sad to hear that they would still use smartphones however (no idea what SNS is).

The rules there do not strike me as too different to those here; 1a just acknowledges the fact that users are guests, and 1b upholds the same rules against hate speech, flaming and looking for trouble that we find here. A few years before you joined, this board was home to a notorious bully who harassed countless users and turned them away from Pale Moon for life, and almost ruined the whole UXP project, but he has been banned.

Off-topic:
I think that tyrannical moderators arise because of a basic tension. Board/chat staff members are obligated, by the law or their host if one exists, to inspect every post made to ensure nobody is spamming lolicon or plotting massacres. This obligates them to read lots of things which they find personally intolerable and expose themselves to users whom they would simply block in a private capacity if it were possible. Few people are capable of this sort of long-term exposure, so we see moderators exploiting their official capacity to achieve what they would have done privately. Of course, it is not tyranny if a community wishes to maintain stricter boundaries about welcome speech and makes this clear.

RC himself abandoned smartphones a few years ago, but generally tries to discourage all-or-nothing thinking, even making a film about that, so it is natural for users interested in, or only capable of, hole-and-corner reforms to trade tips there. SNS stands for Social Networking Service; the abbreviation is most used in Japan, but is good English and I have adopted it.

[frostknight]

A few years before you joined, this board was home to a notorious bully who harassed countless users and turned them away from Pale Moon for life, and almost ruined the whole UXP project, but he has been banned.

Do you mean the same person who tried to hijack the servers and take full control of palemoon for himself?

If so I unfortunately know who you mean...

Hope he finds redemption though from his previous ways if its the same person I am thinking of in particular.

[back2themoon]

Off-topic:
Well, he was a bit more than that, offering major contributions to the project. I prefer to remember and focus on this side, instead of the other negative stuff.

[Mæstro]

To return ourselves to the intended topic, I was reading about the Australian SNS ban on children which is entering in force as we speak. It stands out to me that children today, and even the youngest adults now, cannot recall a time before smartphones and, what is more, many cannot conceive keeping in touch with remote friends without a smartphone application. Many have literally been using it in the cradle. On a crowded bus last week, we were swarmed with older children. In Germany, I see far fewer juvenile zombies than in the States, but out of seven or eight, one had gone to share his smartphone with another, while a third was sitting mesmerised. I have always appreciated the internet’s inherent ability to serve as a (not the) window to the world, one where some autistic disadvantages in society are cancelled out, but this feels different at its core.

[UCyborg]

Modern Life

It's a clown world. A nanny state.

[Mæstro]

Without letting this discussion turn to politics, it is worth noting that research in 2021 discovered that almost all Australians who possess mobile phones are afraid, at least to some extent, of going without them. One of the leading researchers involved even tries to justify it:

I think we have habitualised the device into our lives, on both a structural and individual level. The fear of being without one’s mobile phone may be a rational response when we have come to rely on them for staying in contact with friends and family, using the digital wallet, scanning QR codes for entry into venues, or to read shopping lists and access information.

Australia has permitted herself to become dependent on smartphones in daily life, and this is surely not unique to her. Personal computers and the internet came to enjoy majority adoption in the rich countries early this century, but they did not enmesh themselves into all facets of life in the way smartphones have. The pace keeps quickening. Although this thread is not about LLM, they already enjoy majority use, within three years of ChatGPT’s introduction, in the rich countries. I am not contrarian for its own sake, but time after time, in so many unrelated aspects of my life, I see a world devoted to running headlong into lunacy or barbarism. How will it end?

[Gemmaugr]

How will it end?

Hyper-centralized smartphone-surveillance states, sadly. Digital ID's are rolling out all over the world (https://reclaimthenet.org/?s=Digital+ID), which will consist of not just identity verifications (https://reclaimthenet.org/?s=age+verification) for accessing the internet, but Mobile Driver Licenses (https://reclaimthenet.org/?s=driver+license), Banking (https://reclaimthenet.org/?s=cbdc) and Bank-ID to use government services (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BankID_(S ... kin=vector) as well as Social Credit scores (https://reclaimthenet.org/?s=social+credit). All the while the population is sleepwalking through it with short-term gratifications/brain-rot distractions, black & white proxy conflict camps, and ever-tightening income with increased expenses.

[UCyborg]

I am not contrarian for its own sake, but time after time, in so many unrelated aspects of my life, I see a world devoted to running headlong into lunacy or barbarism.

I think it already went there long before smartphones.