Goanna article in EN Wikipedia has been nominated for deletion

[jobbautista9]

Article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goanna_(software)
AfD nom: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... (software)

It seems that Wikipedia's notability guidelines could threaten the existence of a standalone article for the Goanna engine. It'd be a shame if the article itself doesn't survive; I fear that it will lead to a downward spiral where not being an independent article means less chances of getting the browser engine covered by secondary sources considered acceptable by Wikipedia. If you would like to help getting the article to be kept you could try searching for secondary sources that significantly covers the engine (like the German article linked in the "keep" comment). If the source is a blog post, it's likely it won't be considered reliable, unless you can prove that the author is an independent (i.e. not heavily involved in Goanna's development) established subject-matter expert.

Worst-case scenario, the article is replaced by a redirect to the Pale Moon article with relevant information merged to the latter. It's certainly better than deletion, but it's not a good sign of things to come. It would affect the first page of search engine results for example which tends to favor showing a featured excerpt from Wikipedia.

[Moonchild]

I guess I'm barred from contributing more information myself to the discussion because Wikipedia and the whole "oh no someone involved dared contribute to the article or discussion about something they publish!..." So, feel free to use the info below from a simple quick search about Goanna on the Internet (non-notable...? pff)

Some mentions of Goanna in notable places:

• Techspot article about K-Meleon which can use either Goanna or Gecko https://www.techspot.com/downloads/3944-k-meleon.html
• Basilisk's website of course, but I guess that's "too close" even if I'm not doing anything for it. https://www.basilisk-browser.org/
• Wikipedia's own "Comparison of browser engines" where it's standing out for e.g. it's Jpeg-XL support. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_browser_engines
• "Pale Moon rounds out the list as the most independent option here. It runs on its own Goanna engine, a fork of an older Firefox codebase, rather than tracking modern Firefox or Chromium." - https://elephas.app/resources/best-privacy-browsers
• Windows Report: "Pale Moon is an open-source browser based on the Goanna engine that only requires 256 MB of RAM to work, so it will run on Windows 7 without any problems." - https://windowsreport.com/best-browser-windows-7/
• Something historical: Sysnative.com (2015), post about the origin of Goanna and initial introduction of the name. https://www.sysnative.com/forums/threads/introducing-goanna-the-replacement-engine-for-pale-moon.14936/
• Goanna-based web browsers in the web browser directory - https://www.webbrowserdirectory.com/explore/filters/rendering-engine-goanna/ I guess one could mention each browser individually.
• Completely independent web application development with Eiffel on Goanna (nothing at all to do with any of the browsers): https://www.eiffel.org/article/creating ... ith_goanna Actually a different Goanna.

I could probably find dozens more if I wanted to.

EDIT: I guess some of these don't actually help if they want to merge it into Pale Moon's article. I guess you'd have to focus on the uses that exclude Pale Moon?

[BenFenner]

If I have time, I will try to improve the article myself.

Also:
Wikipedia | Help:My article got nominated for deletion! | How to save the article

[Moonchild]

On Wikipedia, the general inclusion threshold is whether the subject is notable enough for at least two people to have written something substantive (more than just a mention) about that subject that has been published in a secondary and reliable source.

The article definitely meets that criterion. So it shouldn't have been marked.

[andyprough]

Here's some more. Some of them miss the mark a bit technically, but they are generally positive.

1. “Pale Moon – Independent Windows and Linux Browser”, Mojeek Official Blog, June 29, 2022, https://blog.mojeek.com/2022/06/pale-mo ... owser.html.

Back in 2009, the lead developer of what is now known as the Pale Moon browser forked Firefox. Originally leveraging the Gecko rendering engine, the browser gradually moved in its own direction, with this fork of Gecko becoming Goanna in 2015.

The work put into Goanna has turned it into something which has diverged considerably from the original fork. This engine has become a true alternative to Gecko, not bound to developments undertaken by Mozilla. It instead reflects the choices and wishes of an enthusiastic community and tightly-knit team of developers.

It is difficult to overstate the ambition behind the tech stack that forms the backbone of Pale Moon; going their own way when much larger technology companies have decided to rely on Big Tech projects. Does this remind you of anyone, I wonder?

2. "Pale Moon Browser Review: Incredibly Lightweight And Secure", Windows Report, Sept 30, 2025, https://windowsreport.com/pale-moon-browser-review/

There have been other Firefox forks, but Pale Moon opted for a separate custom Goanna browser engine, a fork of the Gecko engine.

Goanna is built on an independent Unified XL Platform, a derivative of Mozilla’s dead XUL language.

Despite being cloned from ancient Gecko and Firefox code, Pale Moon’s use of the Goanna engine distinguishes it as more than simply an obsolete version of Firefox. This also makes it a very safe and secure choice.

3. "Pale Moon – Goanna-based web browser", LinuxLinks, Feb 21, 2024, https://www.linuxlinks.com/pale-moon-go ... b-browser/

Pale Moon is a Goanna-based web browser available for various operating systems.

Pale Moon originated as a fork of Firefox, but has subsequently diverged. The main differences are the user interface, add-on support, and running in single-process mode

This is free and open source software.

4. "7 Open Source Chrome Alternative Web Browsers for Linux", It's Foss, Mar 27, 2023, https://itsfoss.com/open-source-browsers-linux/

While it may look like a slightly older version of Firefox, Pale Moon is much more. Pale Moon is a fork of Firefox maintained by Dutch developer M.C. Straver, also known as Moonchild. Pale Moon's goal is to “create a full-featured, optimized browser derived from the code behind the popular Firefox browser”.

This is accomplished by removing support for older hardware and operating systems. Like NetSurf, Pale Moon has its own layout engine named Goanna, which is a fork of Gecko. Pale Moon is built with C and C++.

5. "Basilisk: A Firefox Fork For The Classic Looks and Classic Extensions", It's Foss, Mar 10, 2020, https://itsfoss.com/basilisk-browser/

Basilisk works out of the box. However, here are some features you might want to take a look before considering to use it:
XUL-based web browser
It features the ‘Australis’ Firefox interface, which was quite popular back in the time of v29 – v56 Firefox version.
NPAPI plugins supported (Flash, Unity, Java, etc.)
Support for XUL/Overlay Mozilla-style extensions.
Uses Goanna open-source browser engine which is a fork of Mozilla’s Gecko
Does not use Rust or the Photon user interface
Supports 64-bit systems only

6. "Mobile Ecosystems Market Study interim report, Appendix F: understanding the role of browser engines 2021 (CMA)", Competition and Markets Authority, Government of UK. Main page - https://www.gov.uk/find-digital-market- ... s-2021-cma
Appendix F page - https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... ngines.pdf

There have been a limited number of entrants over the past decade, including:
• The open-source browser engine Goanna, a fork of Gecko which is stewarded by Moonchild Productions. Officially launched in 2015, Goanna powers both of Moonchild Productions’ open-source web browsers, PaleMoon and Basilisk.25 The browser engine has also been adopted by K-Meleon and Mypal

7. "Pale Moon Project Rolls Out The Basilisk Browser Project", Phoronix, Nov 17, 2017, https://www.phoronix.com/news/Basilisk-Web-Browser

The developers behind the Pale Moon web-browser that's been a long standing fork of Firefox have rolled out their first public beta release of their new "Basilisk" browser technology.

Basilisk is their new development platform based on their (Gecko-forked) Goanna layout engine and the Unified UXL Platform (UXP) that is a fork of the Mozilla code-base pre-Servo/Rust... Basically for those not liking the direction of Firefox with v57 rolling out the Quantum changes, etc.

8. "Pale Moon 28 unveils major under-the-hood changes and improvements", BetaNews, Aug 16, 2018, https://betanews.com/article/pale-moon- ... rovements/

The new build unveils the fourth iteration of its own browser rendering engine, Goanna, which was first adopted back in 2016. There are also major updates to its JavaScript engine, media backend as well as newly introduced support for the WebGL2 standard.

Although based on Firefox, Pale Moon was forked several years ago to focus on its own development. There are virtually no visual or obvious changes in this new major build, but the under-the-hood changes are both extensive and necessary.

The latest iteration of its own browser rendering engine -- Goanna -- remains based on Firefox’s old Gecko engine and promises improved compatibility with what it dubs "trendy" CSS styling techniques such as CSS Grid.

9. "Pale Moon 26.0 has been released", Ghacks.net, Jun 26, 2017, https://www.ghacks.net/2016/01/26/pale- ... -released/

Pale Moon 26.0 has been released. The new version of the web browser is the first in which the switch to Goanna, the new rendering engine that is closely related to Gecko but not the same, is completed.

When it comes to Firefox-based browsers, it is probably Pale Moon that is the most popular in terms of users but also news coverage around the web. While you could argue that SeaMonkey is more popular, it is more than just a browser and at least somewhat pushed by the fact that it is offered on Mozilla's official website.

Pale Moon 26.0 ships with the Goanna rendering engine. While most users may not notice any changes whatsoever after updating to version 26.0 of the web browser, some may notice issues. This is to be expected considering that switching rendering engines is quite the major undertaking in the browser world.

10. "Pale Moon to switch from Gecko to Goanna rendering engine", Ghacks.net, Jun 22, 2015, https://www.ghacks.net/2015/06/22/pale- ... ng-engine/

The Pale Moon team announced yesterday on the official project forum that the next major version of the browser, Pale Moon 26, will use the new layout and rendering engine Goanna instead of Mozilla's Gecko.

The Pale Moon web browser used Mozilla's Gecko engine up until now thanks to its close ties to the Firefox project.

One major issue that the team ran into is that Mozilla linked Gecko's version to that of the Firefox web browser which caused compatibility issues for Pale Moon users on websites that detected the "wrong" version of Gecko thanks to Pale Moon's different version.

Apart from the technical issue described above, using Gecko was also identified as a legal issue by the Pale Moon team as it is a registered trademark licensed to the Mozilla Foundation by Netscape/AOL.

The solution the team came up with was to create its own rendering and layout engine Goanna and use it instead of Gecko in the Pale Moon browser. As is the case with Pale Moon and Firefox, it has close ties to the Gecko rendering engine.

11. "Pale Moon adopts new Goanna browser engine, fine-tunes interface", BetaNews, Jan 26, 2016, https://betanews.com/article/pale-moon- ... interface/

The new build, also available in 64-bit, sees Pale Moon unveil its own browser rendering engine, Goanna, plus further fine-tune the browser user interface as well as introduce a number of other new features, changes and security improvements.

The move to a brand new rendering engine is part of Pale Moon’s fork away from Firefox, the browser it’s based on, that began before v25 was released. Goanna remains closely related to Firefox’s Gecko engine, but is designed to further differentiate Pale Moon from its one-time parent.

Moonchild warns the move could result in potential compatibility issues with certain websites as well as Firefox browser extensions. It urges users to report problems to itself or site owners in the case of an individual website.

The shift to Goanna also sees Pale Moon reduce the number of languages it supports through included language packs -- the total number remains at over 30, however.

12. "Play Flash Games", We Play Tech, Sep 21, 2023, https://www.weplaytech.com/game/guide/play-flash-games/

Pale Moon is an open-source Internet browser that focuses on building customizable features for users. It is derived from Mozilla Firefox, prompting people to call it a ‘Firefox fork’. This browser was first introduced in 2009 and uses the Goanna engine. The software boasts UXP, its own platform, making it an independent product regardless of its foundation.

Despite its origin, the browser has a unique look and feel to it. The user interface and add-on support are visibly different from Firefox. Another plus is that it continues to run Adobe Flash and other retired plugins.

The number of years from when it forked from Firefox to today allowed developers to grow the project. This product matured gracefully, making it ideal for users, especially those who want to play the best of Flash games. It is regularly updated security-wise and optimized for the latest processors. The browser is privacy-aware, which means it does not condone data gathering, ads, spyware, or telemetry.

13. "How to install Pale Moon Browser on Ubuntu 20.04 LTS Focal", Linux Shout, Jun 11, 2022, https://linux.how2shout.com/how-to-inst ... lts-focal/

Pale Moon is based on the look of the old Firefox versions (FF 28 and earlier). Older plugins for Firefox incl. plugins that use the NPAPI interface are supported, the newer Firefox plugins (“Web Extensions”) do not work with Pale Moon, and support is not planned.

The design of “Pale Moon” and the basic structure are now also based on the latest version of Firefox. The browser is quite slim, uses the Goanna engine, and should be much faster at the start than its predecessor. Extensions and personas themes should also continue to work under “Pale Moon” without any problem

14. "Goanna-Rendering-Engine: Technik zum Aufrufen von Webseiten", Computer Bild [German language], Aug 30, 2025, https://www.computerbild.de/artikel/Tip ... 15877.html

Goanna is a rather unknown rendering engine that is used to call up websites. It is not widespread, but it is technically interesting and historically relevant. In our guide, we go into the technology. ...

Die Rendering-Engine "Goanna" kommt in Basilisk, Pale Moon, dem Pale-Moon-Fork "MyPal" (Pal bedeutet hier ähnlich wie bei PayPal "Kumpel") und in K-Meleon zum Tragen. Die genannten Browser und die Engine zeichnet eine Single-Prozess-Architektur aus: Die Surf-Client-Software nutzt dabei jeweils nur einen EXE-Prozess im RAM (Arbeitsspeicher), statt mehrere – selbst bei einer Vielzahl von geöffneten Fenstern und/oder geladenen Tabs.
Das spart RAM ein und ist tendenziell für schwachbrüstig ausgestattete PCs von Vorteil, kostet aber Stabilität, weil eine sich aufhängende Webseite in einem Tab bewirken kann, auch alle anderen Tabs unbrauchbar zu machen, hin zu einem Freeze (Einfrieren) – oder sie treibt die ganze Surf-Umgebung in einen Absturz.

15. "Pale moon browser review, importance, Pale moon vs Firefox", Online Sciences, Jul 16, 2022, https://www.online-sciences.com/compute ... s-firefox/

Pale Moon has diverged from Firefox in a number of ways: Pale Moon uses the pre-Australis user interface (“Strata”) as carried by Firefox during versions 4-28, Pale Moon supports extensions built with XUL and XPCOM, which are no longer supported by Firefox.

Pale Moon supports “Complete Themes”, add-ons that can customize the entire UI of the browser, Firefox no longer supports this and retains limited options for UI customization.

Pale Moon supports NPAPI plugins indiscriminately, all of which are no longer supported by Firefox, Pale Moon replaces the Gecko browser engine with the Goanna fork, Pale Moon runs in single-process mode, but Firefox became a multi-process program.

16. "Firefox vs Pale Moon browser – Which one is better?", Jul 31, 2022, https://www.thewindowsclub.com/firefox- ... on-browser

Both Firefox and Pale Moon are free and open-source web browsers whose code is available to the public. Anyone can review the code and find the issues if there are any. Firefox and Pale Moon have their own rendering engines to display web pages according to the current standards. Pale Moon uses the Goanna rendering engine, while Firefox uses the Gecko rendering engine. Since both their rendering engines are developed on their own without relying on third-party engines, they can eliminate privacy concerns.

Though initially built upon Firefox code, the Pale Moon browser does not need Firefox anymore. It can provide its updates as any mainstream browser does. The base code of Pale Moon has shifted from that of Firefox to a significant extent. While that makes Pale Moon browser free of Firefox and brings it into the category of mainstream browsers, it still needs some work – on extensions. Goanna is the Open Source layout engine as used in Pale Moon and in the FossaMail mail client.

17. "List of web browsers that use the Goanna rendering engine", Web Browser Directory, May 18, 2026, https://www.webbrowserdirectory.com/exp ... ne-goanna/

Browser Name Rendering Engine Timeline Device Type Operating Systems Status
Basilisk Goanna 2017 → Desktop BSD, Linux, macOS, Windows Active
Dactyloidae Goanna 2026 - 2026 Desktop Linux, macOS, Windows Idle
Hydra Goanna 2018 → Desktop Windows Active
K-Meleon Goanna 2000 - 2022 Desktop Windows Idle
Kirin Goanna 2025 → Desktop Windows Active
Lun3r Goanna 2018 → Desktop Windows Active
Pale Moon Goanna 2009 - 2026 Desktop BSD, Linux, macOS, Windows Active

18. "Pale Moon 26.0 adopts new Goanna browser engine, fine-tunes interface", Jan 26, 2016, Download Crew, https://www.downloadcrew.com/news/38528 ... _interface

The new build, also available in 64-bit, sees Pale Moon unveil its own browser rendering engine, Goanna, plus further fine-tune the browser user interface as well as introduce a number of other new features, changes and security improvements.

The move to a brand new rendering engine is part of Pale Moon’s fork away from Firefox, the browser it’s based on, that began before v25 was released. Goanna remains closely related to Firefox’s Gecko engine, but is designed to further differentiate Pale Moon from its one-time parent.

[Mæstro]

A while ago, I described Wikipedia as free advertising for UXP, and this remark turns out to be prescient. Since others have commented on what to submit before the article, I shall not repeat that. Instead, I should alert you how Wikipedia editors tend to reflect a mode of thought which is hostile towards anything considered contrary to mainstream opinion. Obvious examples are subjects like alternative medicine, creationism, astrology or the occult, which are held in disdain by the crowd who, twenty years ago, set up shop on Reddit and founded the cultural mood there which still haunts the browser and Firefox subreddits and disdains us for being outdated and obsolete.

[athenian200]

So, while I was looking for stuff that uses Goanna, I stumbled across this:

https://kmeleonccf.com/#features

Is this a real thing? Looks like it might be fake.

[BenFenner]

I should alert you how Wikipedia editors tend to reflect a mode of thought which is hostile towards anything considered contrary to mainstream opinion. Obvious examples are subjects like alternative medicine, creationism, astrology or the occult, which are held in disdain

Yes, please do excuse Wikipedia for generally holding to a fact-based standard. How useful it would be if it did not...

[Mæstro]

Is this a real thing? Looks like it might be fake.

Why does it seem fake to you? As a non-programmer, I find it definitely odd, given UXP’s background, that somebody would make an agentic browser based on Goanna, but there is a download link offering what are purportedly Windows binaries. Of course, far all I know, these could be malware, and I would surely not run it on my own computer if I were running a recent Windows version, but this seems, at face value, like something which could exist.

[athenian200]

Why does it seem fake to you? As a non-programmer, I find it definitely odd, given UXP’s background, that somebody would make an agentic browser based on Goanna, but there is a download link offering what are purportedly Windows binaries. Of course, far all I know, these could be malware, and I would surely not run it on my own computer if I were running a recent Windows version, but this seems, at face value, like something which could exist.

Well, the only thing offered as far as I can tell is binaries that I don't really want to download. All the other links on the page are dead... and worst of all, it attributes Goanna to roytam1 and implies it's his project.

[solitude]

So, while I was looking for stuff that uses Goanna, I stumbled across this:

https://kmeleonccf.com/#features

Is this a real thing? Looks like it might be fake.

The source code link just goes back to the top of the page when clicked, and there's not a single GitHub link.

[Kruppt]

So, while I was looking for stuff that uses Goanna, I stumbled across this:

https://kmeleonccf.com/#features

Is this a real thing? Looks like it might be fake.

Does not look like the original site for sure. I remember this browser though.(K-meleon)
I used it for 6 or so months as my main browser back about 1998 on Windows 98se. Then the Phoenix
Browser came out started using it. Was the precursor to Firebird then to be Firefox. Highly configurable
Browser K-Meleon was. I thought it was the best browser on Windows at that time.

[Shadow]

So, while I was looking for stuff that uses Goanna, I stumbled across this:

https://kmeleonccf.com/#features

Is this a real thing? Looks like it might be fake.

Did a quick look up. A smidgen of leftover to use.

The author willing to take questions on HN. So far, nothing.

Didn't find a github with it but certain it's this user. Maybe they made it private.

[frostknight]

I guess I'm barred from contributing more information myself to the discussion because Wikipedia and the whole "oh no someone involved dared contribute to the article or discussion about something they publish!..." So, feel free to use the info below from a simple quick search about Goanna on the Internet (non-notable...? pff)

Some mentions of Goanna in notable places:

Its also possible that some of the wikipedia editors are friggin narcisstic and want to remove it because they are like

"no one uses this"

That kind of bs... or

"its outdated/irrelevant"

I hope I am wrong about this though.

The internet has some real pieces of work on it sometimes.

To put it mildly...

[Mæstro]

Frost’s concerns are what I had warned about. Some editors might even believe Goanna has been abandoned. I thought tonight to check this browser timeline hosted by Wikimedia Commons, for I recalled Basilisk and Pale Moon were listed on it, and I (incorrectly) seemed to remember it listing Goanna as separate engine. Instead, it suggests Pale Moon died in 2023, Basilisk in 2025. Somebody should probably correct the file to account for the fact we remain in active development.

[frostknight]

Frost’s concerns are what I had warned about. Some editors might even believe Goanna has been abandoned. I thought tonight to check this browser timeline hosted by Wikimedia Commons, for I recalled Basilisk and Pale Moon were listed on it, and I (incorrectly) seemed to remember it listing Goanna as separate engine. Instead, it suggests Pale Moon died in 2023, Basilisk in 2025. Somebody should probably correct the file to account for the fact we remain in active development.

That is just dumb...

[Moonchild]

Frost’s concerns are what I had warned about. Some editors might even believe Goanna has been abandoned. I thought tonight to check this browser timeline hosted by Wikimedia Commons, for I recalled Basilisk and Pale Moon were listed on it, and I (incorrectly) seemed to remember it listing Goanna as separate engine. Instead, it suggests Pale Moon died in 2023, Basilisk in 2025. Somebody should probably correct the file to account for the fact we remain in active development.

I wanted to update the SVG so I loaded it into InkScape but it seems whomever worked on it last did something weird and I can't get the objects in an editable state (can't ungroup to work on the individual objects). Maybe someone else can help with this; either update, or get it in a state where I could work on it?

EDIT: Oh, I see. this has to be done in source code of the XML because it's all in defs. FFS people, this isn't the 1980s.

EDIT2: Updated

[Mæstro]

Looking into other software which uses Goanna had brought me to Nimble Writer, paid writing software. I link AlternativeTo for this is where it was listed as using Goanna, and its own listing is silent. Does anybody here know more about this?

[Moonchild]

Looking into other software which uses Goanna had brought me to Nimble Writer, paid writing software. I link AlternativeTo for this is where it was listed as using Goanna, and its own listing is silent. Does anybody here know more about this?

Curious if so! I just asked their business contact to confirm if it's the case and to at least mention it on their site if so. That would help us with exposure by a third party.

EDIT: AlternativeTo is wrong.
This from the NimbleWriter dev(s):

I have never heard of Goanna, so no I don't think I'm using it at all, unless it's used in a dependency that I'm not aware of. It's entirely WinForms.

[UCyborg]

Don't believe everything you read on the internet. If this is Goanna, then I'm a Japanese Ceasar.

It's a .NET Framework application using NHunspell, NLua, ScintillaNET and PDFSharp, among other things.

It's on Steam, so file list is easily obtainable via SteamDB.

https://steamdb.info/depot/348201/