Pale Moon's PR Problem

[Moonchild]

And this kind of discussion and pulling a neutral product into the political is exactly why I avoided having any regional mention in the texts. I see it's indeed immediately leading to a bunch of assumptions and causing a split here even among people very familiar with the browser and project.

So, I guess I'll go back to not claiming it's based in any region and just mention the global collaboration. It was nice to consider but ultimately the tribal pulls will be too strong. If people want to have it mentioned I guess it's easy enough to have it in a news article or people being pointed to the Moonchild Productions site.

Pale Moon isn't "based in" Europe. We are from all over. Also, Moonchild Productions isn't an AktieBolag, but a sole proprietorship. This makes it in fact a lot more personal because my personal finances, assets and livelihood are on the line if things were to go south.

[athenian200]

Yep, I honestly thought "European led development" would be neutral enough not to lead to those assumptions, but apparently people are really sensitive to that kind of posturing and tribal language... I can't really blame them, especially the guy that lives in Germany.

But overall, I guess it really doesn't fit the spirit of the project well. If I were to describe what I really think of when I picture Pale Moon's community, it would be something more like... well, why I went out of my way to make sure MSVC was able to show Russian output for __Sandra__, despite Russia and the US not having the best relationship. Didn't see any reason why he shouldn't be able debug things in his own language. And Mozilla is American, and there's still some ties in the form of NSS and everything being based on English as a foundation, of course. A Chinese user wanted support for MIPS once, and it was added. Later, Basilisk-Dev added support for Loongarch, that wasn't rejected either.

So it's like... if you look at the way we actually do things, we really don't consistently act like an American project, a European project, a Russian project, or a Chinese project. Yeah, I'd say it's vaguely aligned with "western values" in the old-school NATO/UN sense of international cooperation more than Russian or Chinese ones, but also isn't hostile to anyone willing to work with us and tends to treat people like individuals more than like representatives of a state. I'm not really sure if there's a good term to capture that, but I feel like it's one of the good things about this project. Mostly we care about what you bring to the table and whether you can work with us or not.

The attitude seems very reminiscent of the 1980s and 1990s, admittedly, but it's one aspect of this project I really have no interest in "modernizing."

[Moonchild]

I remember when just the other day there was somewhere where the extensions were described as 'extremely powerful'.

Yes, 'powerful' has slipped through the gap; could easily be added here:

Extend the capabilities of Pale Moon by installing powerful add-ons written in the XUL language

it actually didn't slip through the gap. It is mentioned in the first sentence and it was jarring to state "powerful" twice in a row. If it gets the message across better though, I'll move the term from #1 to #2

[back2themoon]

So, I guess I'll go back to not claiming it's based in any region and just mention the global collaboration.

The distancing from Big Tech (which is indeed, US-based currently) is still firmly in place and that's the important part, really.

Off-topic:

But yeah, hearing this, it sounds like Europeans are actually the most worried about the idea of the EU's interest being prioritized over their own national identities... apparently Britain wasn't alone in that discomfort?

Not so about identities à la Brexit, but the usual "elite" corrupt gangs (both elected and unelected) looking after their own interests over public interest. Whatever good we achieved with the unification, has evaporated. It was always about the money from the start, anyway: "EEC".

[frostknight]

We are from all over. Also, Moonchild Productions isn't an AktieBolag, but a sole proprietorship. This makes it in fact a lot more personal because my personal finances, assets and livelihood are on the line if things were to go south.

You mean a different version of proprietor I am sure then what I think of then.

Your project doesn't feel like a proprietorship to me because that would mean its an effing walled garden like big tech.

And its a positive that it isn't that. a HUGE ONE!

[Mæstro]

…and there's still some ties in the form of NSS and everything being based on English as a foundation, of course.

This is one of those points which has bothered me about IT in general. Angla lingvo ne estas neŭtrala.

Yeah, I'd say it's vaguely aligned with "western values" in the old-school NATO/UN sense of international cooperation more than Russian or Chinese ones…

I feel deeply uncomfortable identifying international co-operation with the West or UN (each of which have their own problems), and especially Nato (which, like any martial institution, I should reject absolutely), or casting this as exclusive of Russian or Chinese values. (Mind that Xlandic values are not the Xlandic government’s policy on a given day.) I should say goodwill towards men is a human value for everybody.

[athenian200]

You mean a different version of proprietor I am sure then what I think of then.

Your project doesn't feel like a proprietorship to me because that would mean its an effing walled garden like big tech.

And its a positive that it isn't that. a HUGE ONE!

Oh, no, no... we're not talking about like "the proprietor of the establishment," we're talking about legal terms to refer to various kinds of business entities:
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/so ... orship.asp

A sole proprietorship is an unincorporated business with one owner. There is no legal separation between the company and the owner, who receives all profits but is liable for all debts and losses. A sole proprietorship is the easiest type to establish and a popular choice for small businesses, individual contractors, and consultants. Most small businesses start as sole proprietorships and either stay that way or expand and transition to a limited liability entity or corporation.

Now, compare that with an LLC:
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/llc.asp

A limited liability company (LLC) is a business structure in the U.S. that protects the assets of its owners from lawsuits and creditors concerned with the company's business debts.

And an AktieBolag:
https://bolagsverket.se/en/foretag/akti ... g.477.html

A limited company (aktiebolag) is a legal person owned by its shareholder or shareholders. The dividing line between the company’s finances and the shareholders’ private finances is well-defined.

So, what we're trying to say is that neither Epyrus nor Pale Moon have assets held by incorporated entities, but instead are owned by individuals, and thus we are both exposed to full legal and financial liability for anything that might go wrong with our respective projects. As noted above, this also has the effect of putting us in a position where we either have to avoid all geographic references, or refer to our own person or citizenship in a way that comes off as political, whereas incorporated entities don't have that problem... so apparently LLC-type entities also help (in a soft way) toprotect a brand at least partially against political liability associated with the owner's geographical location or citizenship.

My main reason for not having an LLC is simply that I don't have the money or the legal savvy to deal with the process, but if I knew the right people or had a little more money to play with, I'd be tempted to do that. Don't know if that's the same case for MC.

This is one of those points which has bothered me about IT in general. Angla lingvo ne estas neŭtrala.

I feel deeply uncomfortable identifying international co-operation with the West or UN (each of which have their own problems), and especially Nato (which, like any martial institution, I should reject absolutely), or casting this as exclusive of Russian or Chinese values. (Mind that Xlandic values are not identical with the Xlandic government’s policy on a given day.) Ultimately, goodwill towards men is a human value for everybody, whether Western or Eastern, whether within or beyond the UN system, and basically incompatible with the idea, which finds its expression among other places in military blocs, of using force to settle disputes.

Yeah, the English thing, I get why it would make you uneasy that it's the default in IT. That part is totally understandable. But for the rest... sigh. Here we go again.

I certainly wasn't suggesting we should explicitly identify with any of those descriptors I threw out there (sorry you seem to think I did push for them), but rather resetting expectations from "European" or any specific geopolitical block. And your description of "goodwill towards men" and "human values" actually hints pretty strongly at a Christian worldview, perhaps not unlike that associated with missionaries? Not sure. But even that doesn't come off as entirely neutral. But anyway, the point there was to be honest that while we try to be neutral, the project is inevitably going to be more aligned with some cultures and values than others for historical reasons and just the kind of people who will have the time, money, and interest to contribute, though still definitely not aligned with a specific geopolitical block or nation.

Like for instance, it's well-known in sociology that a tendency to view people as individuals, foster international cooperation, and attempt to create fair, meritocratic, inclusive systems is, ironically, more correlated with some cultures than others... sorry if I was too blunt about that, but it seems like you're expecting us to live up to a kind of extreme neutrality and a specific definition of human/universal values you have in mind that we probably can't hope to deliver as a project. Which is I guess why Moonchild wisely chose to say absolutely nothing on that page.

[Mæstro]

But for the rest... sigh. Here we go again.

Sorry if I am annoying in this thread.
Frankly, I have found this thread rather more awkward to participate in than is usual for me on this board, and I have been considering, failing the ability for me to block it, whether I should just ignore it.

I certainly wasn't suggesting we should explicitly identify with any of those descriptors I threw out there (sorry you seem to think I did push for them)…

Thank you for clarifying. This possibility, however remote, is what frightened me, and the feeling lingered with me enough when I was away from the keyboard today that I thought I should say something. How easy it is for us to misunderstand each other!

And your description of "goodwill towards men" and "human values" actually hints pretty strongly at a Christian worldview, perhaps not unlike that associated with missionaries? Not sure. But even that doesn't come off as entirely neutral.

Yes, for transparency’s sake, especially for others less familiar with me, I write from a distinctly Christian position. Hence also my pacifism, rejection of the profit motive etc cited in past exchanges. This being said, I see peaceful relations between faiths as important as that between nations, and all the other faiths have shown their own interest in tolerance and peaceful co-existence. Pale Moon seems to have an easier time navigating religious controversy than political.

After writing my original message, the form you quoted it, I pruned it for brevity and to avoid disgressions. I do this quite often for my posts here in general, after realising I have gone on a tangent, or could say something more eloquently. Just so nobody is confused by the mismatch between posts, I should declare this common habit here.

But anyway, the point there was to be honest that while we try to be neutral, the project is inevitably going to be more aligned with some cultures and values than others for historical reasons…

I think I would mentally classify the process you are describing as something else, hence the mismatch in our understandings.

…it seems like you're expecting us to live up to a kind of extreme neutrality and a specific definition of human/universal values you have in mind that we probably can't hope to deliver as a project. Which is I guess why Moonchild wisely chose to say absolutely nothing on that page.

No. I think Pale Moon’s course, historical and present, has been proper and sufficient in maintaining neutrality.

[athenian200]

Sorry if I am annoying in this thread.
Frankly, I have found this thread rather more awkward to participate in than is usual for me on this board, and I have been considering, failing the ability for me to block it, whether I should just ignore it.

No. I think Pale Moon’s course, historical and present, has been proper and sufficient in maintaining neutrality.

Nah, you're good. I just worried I stuck my foot in my mouth or something and made you dislike me and/or the project. Glad to hear you're still happy with the project.

Yes, for transparency’s sake, especially for others less familiar with me, I write from a distinctly Christian position. Hence also my pacifism, rejection of the profit motive etc cited in past exchanges. This being said, I see peaceful relations between faiths as important as that between nations, and all the other faiths have shown their own interest in tolerance and peaceful co-existence. Pale Moon seems to have an easier time navigating religious controversy than political.

Ironically, I went for "western values" because that's considered more "tactful" in the US than saying something like "Christian values," which is what people in my Grandma's time probably would have said. We started using that because people were afraid that might come off as biased towards a certain religion, or even antisemitic. For a while, there was a generation in the middle think that would refer to "Judeo-Christian values" to avoid sounding antisemitic, but eventually it settled on "western values" to avoid the religious connotations. It sounds like it may be time to change the euphemism again, LOL.

But yeah, it makes a lot of sense. I was just thinking at first maybe it was an accident that it came off that way, but it looks like the read was more correct than I realized.

[Mæstro]

Likewise, I was afraid, largely because of my personal history and lessons I have bitterly learnt, of seeming preachy or insufferable. You, Moonchild and other developers have earned my trust and confidence.

Off-topic:

It sounds like it may be time to change the euphemism again, LOL.

In a pinch, I just jiggle the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in front of people until they catch on. Approved by a cross section of the world’s nations, one of whom has since been thrown out of the UN system, and representing most major cultural and religious traditions, it captures the spirit well without committing oneself too closely to any one in particular; it is meant to be universal, for all mankind.
I know all major churches have explicitly endorsed the UDHR. I know less about other faiths’ institutions having done so, but it comes up a lot in discussions of religious tolerance and interfaith dialogue.

[UCyborg]

While I understand to a point, having lived through the 1990s and 2000s when people were expected to buy a new machine every 2-5 years, which was insane... I also think that if you get past the point of expecting about 10 years of support for older stuff, it goes from being "opposition to planned obsolescence" to being something like "burying your head in the sand and being stubborn while making developer's lives harder" Like, I definitely get not wanting to throw away serviceable older hardware, within reason... but I am somewhat less understanding of people insisting on making developer's lives harder when their older hardware could run a supported OS, or using 20-year old hardware as a daily driver outside of living in a third-world country.

The instruction set is never likely to go beyond AVX2, mostly because AVX512 support is spotty on consumer hardware anyway and thus the proposed standard for x86-64-v4 is essentially a bust since modern CPUs targeted to consumers don't support it fully.

It's like, yes, I get what was going on in the 1990s and 2000s probably wasn't sustainable, but I think now people are going to the other extreme of wanting to treat a computer like an appliance that should last a lifetime, and really don't want to replace it until it breaks, with a high chance of it being replaced with another old model because they don't like the newer models. One thing that makes me a little annoyed about this is I feel like if it continues, companies might stop making new computers and then we'll all be forced to do everything on the smartphone or keep old stuff on life support forever.

Off-topic:
Guess I'm in that territory or getting there with my 17 years old PC. And I recently replaced power supply rather than buying an entire new computer (though the old PSU may just need a capacitor replacement...).

It's just, the old one does everything I need it for and getting new one is too much bother for not much benefit.

Last but not least, I'm a miserable individual and new computer won't make me happy. When I was a teenager I fantasized about buying an Alienware, but no money. Now the money is not the problem, but I don't give a shit.

Third-world countries? Well the ancient barbaric rituals persist well into 2026 in so-called "first-world" countries... I consider the place I'm from third-world shithole so you could say me using an old computer is consistent with that.

[Moonchild]

Pale Moon seems to have an easier time navigating religious controversy than political.

I think that's primarily because of how people in the current age treat both concepts.
The extreme tribalism resulting from religion that was the cause for many fights in the past seems to be less of an issue nowadays, but it's shifted more towards political tribalism, at least in a number of countries. So we're seeing a reflection here about how sensitive people are to political perceptions of specific words or phrasing... never ye mind if the author of those words meant to imply anything to that effect with their words or not! I guess it's in part because so many people have now been trained to always have their opinions publicly on their sleeves and using their opinions as determining factors for what the fact are, I mean: a lot of people these days tend to take one's own opinion and project that onto the author without even asking if they understood correctly.

[walmar]

So, I guess I'll go back to not claiming it's based in any region and just mention the global collaboration. It was nice to consider but ultimately the tribal pulls will be too strong.

I think that is a good idea. From 2009 to 2015, I was part of a free gaming server project with an international community. We ran a modified version of a popular US commercial first-person shooter about counterterrorism, where we used its excellent physics engine and transformed the game into a friendlier ball sports game (a stadium with a football field and players in jerseys, etc.). We made no mention of Germany or Europe in particular, even though the server was the target of a massive DDoS attack, the kind that at the time was usually only suffered by large corporations.
It saddens me to see people trying to spread something like a European software movement. As far as I know, I am not currently using any software that claims to be European or anything like that. And personally, I see no need for it. Since this thread is about PR, I felt it was appropriate to express my opinion on how such a formulation could be interpreted.

[Bilbo47]

this thread is about PR

Christian worldview ... pacifism, rejection of the profit motive etc ... peaceful relations between faiths

Here's a thought re the whole idea of open source software, where *everyone* is invited to contribute, participate, and use cooperatively. In the old days, tribalism prevented anything from operating this way. Then a new anti-tribal approach was invented, which enabled a *better kind* of civilization to happen. This invention was a basic tenet of a movement that happened to arise "as part of" Christianity, and became the basis of so-called "western values". To be clear: this comment is not about religion nor faith nor a higher power. It *is* about the need for this arguably superior form of civilization to be upheld and defended at every opportunity, because it is attacked every minute by those who cling to the old ways. As for PM, I believe it will help to acknowledge that even in the modern era some cultures cannot allow mindsets to exist that are compatible with open source etc, because of how those cultures *are*. In other words, don't be surprised when OSS is always under attack by self-righteous, non-tolerant, tribalist cultures.

[Mæstro]

…even in the modern era some cultures cannot allow mindsets to exist that are compatible with open source etc, because of how those cultures *are*. In other words, don't be surprised when OSS is always under attack by self-righteous, non-tolerant, tribalist cultures.

Athenian has quite well acknowledged it. As he quotes in his signature:

Linux is a cancer that attaches itself in an intellectual property sense to everything it touches. That's the way that the license works.

We are constantly resisting a culture (or rather, its ringleaders) which worships speed, (a narrowly confined sense of) convenience, disruption for its own sake and ephemerality, who abhor privacy and autonomy. I hesitate to call it fighting, not as much for the metaphor this would suggest, but because we recognise our counter-cultural status, and are not striving to change that (as, say, Stallman does), and our resistance is passive: merely by existing as another way of life than the dominant one. Because I like drawing on whatever I have happened to read in the last 24 hours, I want to liken our position to that of early mammals. Our position is certainly marginal for the time being, but slowly and surely, the world will change, and the monsters and brutes above us should fall into their final decline. In all things, patience.

[athenian200]

Here's a thought re the whole idea of open source software, where *everyone* is invited to contribute, participate, and use cooperatively. In the old days, tribalism prevented anything from operating this way. Then a new anti-tribal approach was invented, which enabled a *better kind* of civilization to happen. This invention was a basic tenet of a movement that happened to arise "as part of" Christianity, and became the basis of so-called "western values". To be clear: this comment is not about religion nor faith nor a higher power. It *is* about the need for this arguably superior form of civilization to be upheld and defended at every opportunity, because it is attacked every minute by those who cling to the old ways. As for PM, I believe it will help to acknowledge that even in the modern era some cultures cannot allow mindsets to exist that are compatible with open source etc, because of how those cultures *are*. In other words, don't be surprised when OSS is always under attack by self-righteous, non-tolerant, tribalist cultures.

Yeah, I originally wasn't sure whether to share this paragraph, but your reply here makes it seem relevant.

What I was trying to do with the whole "western values" thing was refer to a shared cultural milieu and a series of bloody lessons that started with the fall of the Western Roman Empire (which was heavily influenced by Greek philosophy and also helped spread Christianity), was eventually shaped by the Protestant Reformation and all the religious conflict associated with that which taught everyone that people who believe differently need a way to co-exist, and then was finally shaped by two world wars which showed people the danger of similar divisions according to national/ethnic pride. This... way of being and reaction to all these events, whatever you want to call it, definitely started in Europe and is perhaps strongest there, but it definitely isn't confined to that place because, well, people who believe in Christianity all over the world are connected to it in one way, people whose ancestors may have come from Europe are connected in another way, people who immigrate to such countries are connected in yet another way, and even people who just had to learn English, Spanish, French, or another major language from that region for business/practical purposes and then got exposed to the culture are connected in yet another. So you can't really put a pin in it, but it's a thing that exists in a very complicated form, that seemingly can't be given a name without reducing itself or becoming self-contradictory.

There's definitely a thread running through all this that most people interested in this project likely have some connection to, just by virtue of it being what it is. And the implication wasn't so much intentionally excluding people from cultures that are a little more removed from that experience, but rather saying that in some ways, their values, assumptions, worldviews, and experiences haven't been quite as informed by that entire thread of experience, not that they aren't valuable or anything, but that people who work on this project... will, by contrast, just naturally tend to be influenced by all of that in one way or another, consciously or subconsciously.

I don't know if that really made much sense, but thought it was worth adding this to the discussion.

[back2themoon]

I think you are making too much of this. The home page "revamp" discussed here is not primarily meant for either seasoned Pale Moon users, or the text's author I imagine. It's meant for new users, most probably coming from Chromium, having no idea about the project. No one suggested political shifts, project goal changes or anything like that. It's mostly about a presentation change, meant to attract and inform.

[_JaSn]

Yeah, honestly, I think it's as simple as this: We shouldn't portray Pale Moon as 'European' software run by 'developers from Europe' who oppose Big Tech from the United States, because that's what makes soybrains go WAOOWWW!!! regardless of whether the organization is for-profit or not, has the browser be 100% open source or not, puts in a certain amount of telemetry or not, has a good privacy policy or not, provides features thoughtfully or not, etc.

We are better than the likes of Vivaldi.

We are a global community of users and volunteers, which is always better. In terms of the structure of the organization behind Pale Moon, that is the only thing we should be saying on the home page.

[walmar]

Furthermore, a European stance might appear somewhat strange to the average non-English-speaking user for another reason.
The language barrier was mentioned in this thread. And I think that would be a valid objection — one where Pale Moon falls somewhat behind other presentations. The websites of common browsers are multilingual. Not that I would particularly miss it. Possibly negligible — given all the translation features and AI integrations nowadays.

[athenian200]

Furthermore, a European stance might appear somewhat strange to the average non-English-speaking user for another reason.
The language barrier was mentioned in this thread. And I think that would be a valid objection — one where Pale Moon falls somewhat behind other presentations. The websites of common browsers are multilingual. Not that I would particularly miss it. Possibly negligible — given all the translation features and AI integrations nowadays.

Yeah, I didn't even think of that at first, but we are far from being as international as Mozilla, and they are likely held to a lower standard due to being an American company. We have langpacks, yes, and there are a few sub-forums for non-English speakers, but for the most part out of our main developers, only Moonchild can really speak any European languages other than English. I think we have a couple devs that speak Filipino, but while internationally important, that's not a European language. The rest of the team has historically tended to consist of monolingual English speakers, as the project seems to draw American devs mostly. The majority of users who were most interested in older Mozilla... are interested in something that was popular back when computing was a lot more concentrated among English-speaking countries and Western Europe than it is now. That doesn't really send a "Europe-first" message.

As for myself, I am only fluent in English, even though I studied Latin in high school, know some Italian from studying it at one point, and also have been exposed to enough Spanish to understand basics, so would not actually say I "speak" any of those languages in a meaningful sense. If I were to get more serious about learning languages to improve international outreach, I'd likely focus on the Romance languages.