Pale Moon's PR Problem

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Re: Pale Moon's PR Problem

Post by frostknight » 2026-05-28, 19:29

Garland wrote:
2026-05-28, 16:11
I looked today at https://www.palemoon.org/ and I find it states PM's advantages much better than before. However, if I were new to PM, I would not understand how important XUL is to security and privacy. I use uBlock Origin and eMatrix. They are able to block ads, privacy leaks and security threats to a much greater degree than other browsers the because XUL allows them to access the low-level workings of the browser. Browsers that have a foundation in ad revenue (including Mozilla paid by Google) have purposely limited what ads and surveillance that extensions can block. Simply stated: PM protects against web herpes. :D
And about that... eff firefox and especially chromium based web browsers

I absolutely hate having to use firefox based web browsers too also.

Although desperation alas... makes it needed to have a backup.
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Re: Pale Moon's PR Problem

Post by Moonchild » 2026-05-28, 21:27

Gemmaugr wrote:
2026-05-28, 18:58
Moonchild wrote:
2026-05-28, 18:36
Maybe that sentence should just be dropped altogether. If people are curious enough they will soon enough find out they can try unsupported extensions from almost a decade ago. ;)
Totally fair. Trying not to sound "old" or invoke another browser and just expound on the power of XUL would stand us better.
I decided to merge that point with the first since there was too much overlap and the whole thing was too wordy anyway. So this should be a bit more concise and a stronger message.
Though I'm loathe to say it, making default Pale Moon look slightly more "modern" (a misnomer, but.. also also, please keep current default theme. Non-flat design? idk what to call it) would ease a lot of transition issues.
I've had an idea in the back of my head for a few months surrounding that, but just haven't been allowed the time to do design work for it (and it would need to be on a milestone release, anyway). The idea being to supply a new default theme, and keeping the current default available as a quick switch for existing users who prefer the look as it is now. Will need some research how best to supply two themes in one package, maybe something Lootyhoof could help with.
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Re: Pale Moon's PR Problem

Post by back2themoon » 2026-05-28, 21:46

Do I remember correctly that when Pale Moon is first installed and opened, the user lands on a Welcome/Congratulations page, in addition to start.me?

If so, perhaps you could merge/add some of this newly added information into that Welcome page?

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Re: Pale Moon's PR Problem

Post by Falna » 2026-05-28, 21:55

Moonchild wrote:
2026-05-28, 18:36
Maybe that sentence should just be dropped altogether. If people are curious enough they will soon enough find out they can try unsupported extensions from almost a decade ago. ;)
Why not - it's not likely to be a pull factor for new users.

Forked extensions :
● Add-ons Inspector ● Auto Text Link ● Copy As Plain Text ● Copy Hyperlink Text ● FireFTP button replacement ● gSearch Bar ● Navigation Bar Enhancer ● New Tab Links ● Number Tabs ● Print Preview Button and Keyboard Shortcut 2 ● Scrollbar Search Marker ● Simple Marker ● Tabs To Portfolio ● Update Alert ● Web Developer's Toolbox ● Zap Anything

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Re: Pale Moon's PR Problem

Post by athenian200 » 2026-05-28, 23:07

I think that the proposal of having a new default theme is a really good idea. I had actually thought of something similar after hearing some of the stories here... having a newer theme as the default for new users, but including our current one in the package so people can switch back. Minimizes disruption for existing users, but allows us to show a different face to new ones. Maybe if possible, the new theme would take effect for new installations, but existing installs would stay on the old one... though I don't know if we need to go that far. Glad to know that's being considered, I think it could be a good symbolic move as far as reinventing ourselves... when I look at it that way, it makes sense other projects do it. It's about symbolically hitting refresh and trying to make another first impression, to avoid seeming dated or associated with old critiques.
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Re: Pale Moon's PR Problem

Post by Mæstro » 2026-05-28, 23:18

athenian200 wrote:
2026-05-28, 05:25
I mean, if you want a future where the only way to get a new thing that is even remotely like a PC is to pay a high price for small-batch productions of RISC-V CPUs and maybe a GPU targeted at data centers that can still be used for such a machine, and of course for such a machine to have to run a specialized Linux distro because there's no more Windows or anything else commercially viable... then I guess this is how you get it. Can't say that I am a fan of pushing all the profit-seeking companies out of computing…
In general, I believe that for-profit companies of any sort should be pushed out of existence, out of the ultimately religious belief that the profit motive is illegitimate, and that human affairs can and ought to be organised otherwise. To discuss this further would bring us rather far afield, but my statement should be understood in this context.
We understand where one another are coming from, and I don't think either of us is likely to be persuaded by the other, although I appreciate the honesty.
People can reach an impasse, and that is also alright. It is a big world, with lots of room for different people with different desires, values and interests. We can get along without competing. :)
We can both likely agree that we do not want to be forced to use smartphones in the future, at least, but have very different ideas of what compromises we'd accept and what it takes to stop that from becoming a reality.
Indeed. Realistically, I do not see desktops going away. Even my friend who keeps to his iPhone all the time will pull out a laptop to use office software. Offices, business, any organisational work will always require their desktop computers, in the same way that traditional telephones with receiver, speaker- and answerphone have kept their place on the actual desktop. Video game players would hate to be bound to a smartphone.

As far as my own life is concerned, I would be ready to switch to the Raspberry Pi 400 (or 500) with current Debian at any time. I have just not bought one yet because I am slow to buy things in general, and have not yet arranged for transferring my balance between accounts, for I am also slow to fill out forms. I like living a slow life. I would rather be sitting in my chair, a blanket draped over, reading about pewter or Mesolithic settlements, or curled in bed with my childhood blankets, watching Maomao or telling stories with my friends about the Pastel Palettes idols, or finding a scanned book or webpage about pewter or Mesolithic settlements which goes beyond what is discussed in my personal library’s books. When I have something I like, I want to keep it and cherish it for ever, and keep and cherish I will.
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Re: Pale Moon's PR Problem

Post by athenian200 » 2026-05-29, 00:10

Mæstro wrote:
2026-05-28, 23:18
In general, I believe that for-profit companies of any sort should be pushed out of existence, out of the ultimately religious belief that the profit motive is illegitimate, and that human affairs can and ought to be organised otherwise. To discuss this further would bring us rather far afield, but my statement should be understood in this context.
Ah, that does make significantly more sense than what I was picturing, which was for-profit companies being pushed out of the PC hardware space but continuing to operate as normal elsewhere (because I interpreted your prior statement literally). That's the context in which I pictured the outcomes I did. The scenario you're talking about has too many unknowns for me to know how it would go, but I can at least understand why you'd want that and have a pretty good idea of the philosophical framework you're operating under, since my friend DARK MASTER (from another forum) also explained his reasoning to me for wanting such a thing a long time ago.

But yeah, thanks for the additional clarification. It is a small point since the discussion was mostly over, but I appreciate it anyway. :)
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Re: Pale Moon's PR Problem

Post by back2themoon » 2026-05-29, 10:53

This may seem weird, but couldn't help having a fairly advanced AI model "review" the current, revamped home page. At least it makes for an interesting read/experiment:

Yes — this is much better positioning than the old “Firefox-like alternative browser for people who already know what UXP/XUL means” vibe.

The strongest improvement is that the homepage now leads with a clear market identity:
“The Private, Secure and Fully Customizable Open Source Web Browser”
And then immediately frames Pale Moon as a non-commercial alternative to Chrome that respects privacy. That is the right target. Not “Firefox fork.” Not “nostalgia browser.” Not “old UI preservation project.” It is explicitly saying: this is for people who dislike the Chrome-shaped web and want control back.

The best parts:

1. The customization argument is finally front and center.
The page explicitly says Pale Moon supports full theming and powerful XUL add-ons that can modify core browser functions and the UI in ways “impossible in the prominent commercial browsers.” That is probably Pale Moon’s strongest real-world differentiator.

2. The privacy pitch is much sharper.
“No ads, telemetry or data-gathering,” “no DRM or A.I. integration,” and “You are not for sale” are strong lines. They are not subtle, but subtlety is not what Pale Moon needs right now. Firefox is busy becoming “privacy, but also sponsored suggestions, studies, AI side-features, and please trust us.” Pale Moon can credibly occupy the no, really, none of that lane.

3. They now admit the compatibility tradeoff directly.
This is important. The homepage says not everything will work out of the box on today’s Chrome-centric web and that some users may need a secondary browser. That honesty is much better than pretending Pale Moon is a universal drop-in replacement.

Where I think it still needs work:

The “single-process is more secure” argument is dangerous marketing territory.
I understand the point they are making: less IPC complexity, fewer internal moving parts, less task-manager insanity. But mainstream security people will immediately attack this because multi-process sandboxing is now treated as gospel. The homepage says multi-process browsers need a “fragile messaging system” and calls that a major attack surface. That may be partly defensible technically, but as homepage copy it invites a fight Pale Moon probably cannot win in public perception.

I would frame it more as:
“Pale Moon uses a lean, single-process architecture designed for efficiency and transparency, rather than the heavy multi-process model used by mainstream browsers.”
Less “we are more secure because single-process,” more “we made a different engineering tradeoff.”

The NPAPI mention is a double-edged sword.
For us weirdos, NPAPI support is a feature. For normal people, seeing “Java and Flash” on a browser homepage screams “2011 security nightmare.” The page currently says Pale Moon supports native plugins like Java and Flash through NPAPI. I would move that lower or rephrase it as “legacy plugin support where explicitly needed.” Don’t lead casual visitors into thinking Pale Moon’s identity is resurrecting Flash zombies.

The donation section is emotionally honest but too long for a homepage.
The “Freedom, not greed” section is good in principle, and the statement that they are not funded by Google, Apple, Meta, Microsoft, Amazon, etc. is very strong. But the copy gets a bit heavy. A visitor who is merely curious should not feel like they have entered a manifesto plus donation page before they have fully understood the product.

My overall verdict: good and directionally correct. It finally positions Pale Moon as a principled independent browser for people who want customization, privacy, no telemetry, no Chrome monoculture, and no AI/DRM/platform creep. That is exactly the lane they should occupy.

But I would sharpen the public-facing message into three bullets:

Control your browser.
Protect your privacy.
Use the web without Big Tech steering the wheel.


Then keep the deeper technical stuff available, but slightly less exposed on the first page. Pale Moon’s biggest problem is not that it lacks an identity. It is that outsiders often misunderstand the identity. This rebrand helps.

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Re: Pale Moon's PR Problem

Post by Gemmaugr » 2026-05-29, 11:09

back2themoon wrote:
2026-05-29, 10:53
This may seem weird, but couldn't help having a fairly advanced AI model "review" the current, revamped home page. At least it makes for an interesting read/experiment:
It was interesting indeed, and I frankly have to agree with the points the AI laid out. It would be better to posit it as "lean single-process vs heavy multi-process". Maybe add "lightweight" after "lean".

NPAPI and Legacy FF addons could be used in a different, more in-depth technical, page explicitly explaining the more intricate details if needed.
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Re: Pale Moon's PR Problem

Post by andyprough » 2026-05-29, 12:03

That AI has got some marketing savvy, not a bad analysis for like a junior marketing associate. I also toyed with the idea of complaining about "zombie NPAPI plugins" being mentioned on the home page - I agree that to the extent they can be referred to as "legacy" plugins there may be some benefit. But you don't want to overdo it where people can't figure out that you do support NPAPI plugins, as that's where a lot of current users got drawn from.

I would also differ regarding the request for donations:
The donation section is emotionally honest but too long for a homepage.
I disagree - donations need to be discussed in a real and emotionally raw manner, that's where you connect with your donors, not on slick technical bullet points but on points of empathy. This donations section could be a good section to mention the European development leadership and European location for the project.

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Re: Pale Moon's PR Problem

Post by Moonchild » 2026-05-29, 12:33

The donation section being emotionally honest is by design.
I don't give a fuck what a marketing bot thinks about making everything bite-sized for goldfish memory when there's a real important issue being explained.

Mentioning the plugins being legacy is fair, though, I'll do that.

EDIT: done, and added the European leadership mention in the bottom section as well.
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Re: Pale Moon's PR Problem

Post by _JaSn » 2026-05-29, 19:12

Hey everyone, I've been doing some thinking.

I am a Linux enthusiast. I like the idea of being in total control of my computer, having complete freedom, including the freedom to shoot myself in the foot. I also like the fact that Linux is in many ways inherently privacy- and user-centric, due to the influences of FSF/GNU in the Linux ecosystem. And as a cherry on top, Linux is notorious for having the ability to 'revive' old hardware that previously ran some version of a proprietary OS. On Linux, you do not have to worry about inherent bloat. But the most important thing about Linux, IMO, is that it is community-run.

My question for a while has been, "what is the Linux of web browsers?" Most mainstream browsers are eliminated immediately, especially those based on Chromium. Firefox may be an obvious candidate to some because it is technically highly configurable and is better for power users than those based on Chromium (and because it is the most used among Linux users), but we in these forums know better. Its derivatives are just more or less different skins of the same browser, with some nice features added on top, and different defaults.

Meanwhile, Pale Moon:
- Gives the user complete control of their browser, to such a degree that they have the power to shoot themselves in the foot.
- Is inherently privacy- and user-centric.
- Is not bloated, and works well on older hardware.
- Is community-run.

You could easily capitalize on this to address the (IMHO) underdeveloped first section where we actually pitch Pale Moon's features. For example, instead of only saying "ooooh we have these 'XUL' extensions! You can use them to modify the UI!" You could also portray XUL extensions as forbidden technology, foresaken by the big browsers long ago, banished to obscurity, because it was so in fact so powerful that back in the day it posed a danger to people who didn't know what they were doing. But don't go all the way with this though, because although PM is probably best for power users, we shouldn't aim to be elitist or overdramatic, because it's just a browser.

I remember when just the other day there was somewhere where the extensions were described as 'extremely powerful'. That is sort of what I'm talking about. I think we should emphasize that stuff a bit more!

Otherwise, the recent changes are appear to be going in the right direction. I don't know if you changed anything in the 'Secure by design' section, but right now it's pretty good.
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Re: Pale Moon's PR Problem

Post by Falna » 2026-05-29, 20:55

_JaSn wrote:
2026-05-29, 19:12
I remember when just the other day there was somewhere where the extensions were described as 'extremely powerful'.
Yes, 'powerful' has slipped through the gap; could easily be added here:
Extend the capabilities of Pale Moon by installing powerful add-ons written in the XUL language

Forked extensions :
● Add-ons Inspector ● Auto Text Link ● Copy As Plain Text ● Copy Hyperlink Text ● FireFTP button replacement ● gSearch Bar ● Navigation Bar Enhancer ● New Tab Links ● Number Tabs ● Print Preview Button and Keyboard Shortcut 2 ● Scrollbar Search Marker ● Simple Marker ● Tabs To Portfolio ● Update Alert ● Web Developer's Toolbox ● Zap Anything

Hint: If you expect a reply to your PM, allow replies...

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Re: Pale Moon's PR Problem

Post by walmar » 2026-05-29, 21:03

[...] maintained by a small team of community developers under European development leadership [...]
To me, that reads as more threatening than reassuring.
It appears to refer to the European political environment, as this project does not have much to do with landscapes.
As a German who suffers in multiple respects from the inhumane treatment by the government of the Federal Republic, I likewise distance myself as far as possible from the existing European political environment. I cannot speak for other states. But for me, "European" can be anything at all.

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Re: Pale Moon's PR Problem

Post by andyprough » 2026-05-29, 21:28

Moonchild wrote:
2026-05-29, 12:33
EDIT: done, and added the European leadership mention in the bottom section as well.
Looks awesome.

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Re: Pale Moon's PR Problem

Post by back2themoon » 2026-05-29, 22:34

walmar wrote:
2026-05-29, 21:03
[...] maintained by a small team of community developers under European development leadership [...]
To me, that reads as more threatening than reassuring... ...I likewise distance myself as far as possible from the existing European political environment.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that is really meant to showcase Pale Moon being outside the influence of US Big Tech. Geographically, culturally, perhaps also legally etc. Not imply allegiance to some Brussels-based EuroBrowser project.

Although it is already fairly clear, (Big Tech companies are mentioned just below), given the dismal state of the EU I agree it's a good idea to make it even clearer.
Last edited by back2themoon on 2026-05-29, 23:37, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Pale Moon's PR Problem

Post by back2themoon » 2026-05-29, 22:47

Off-topic:
Funnily enough, I've just received this EU-related Kickstarter notice (more like a warning).
Upcoming Changes to EU Import Duties

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Re: Pale Moon's PR Problem

Post by athenian200 » 2026-05-29, 23:23

walmar wrote:
2026-05-29, 21:03
To me, that reads as more threatening than reassuring.
It appears to refer to the European political environment, as this project does not have much to do with landscapes.
As a German who suffers in multiple respects from the inhumane treatment by the government of the Federal Republic, I likewise distance myself as far as possible from the existing European political environment. I cannot speak for other states. But for me, "European" can be anything at all.
Yeah, I wasn't going to say anything because I assumed it was just me overthinking, but my only concern about saying it's "European-developed" or emphasizing that, is that people might read between the lines and hear it as, "This project is aligned with the interests of the EU and Brussels," which might play well in Europe proper, but may make people in other parts of the world (or even the UK) less comfortable. But still, I thought "European leadership" (which is what MC settled on) was more factual and wouldn't conjure that image, perhaps mild enough to avert any such interpretation since it could just be referring to an EU citizen leading development rather than the stronger geopolitical alignment implied by "European-developed."

If the wording had actually been "European-developed" like Andy originally suggested, I was prepared to mention that NSS is still downstream from an American entity known as Mozilla, ask if that would be seized on by critics, and half-joke about wondering if I need to start planning to immigrate to Europe, renounce my US citizenship, and try to get a security clearance by convincing EU bureaucrats that I hate Google enough that they can trust me to build alternatives to American big tech infrastructure for them. LOL.

It is a little surprising to hear that someone from within the EU was uneasy with that alignment being implied, though... I was expecting that to be more of a concern for people outside of the EU.
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Re: Pale Moon's PR Problem

Post by Gemmaugr » 2026-05-29, 23:49

Off-topic:
athenian200 wrote:
2026-05-29, 23:23
It is a little surprising to hear that someone from within the EU was uneasy with that alignment being implied, though... I was expecting that to be more of a concern for people outside of the EU.
As someone from within the EU, it's definitely a concern. The EU leadership feels basically unelected and distant. They also impose both heavy fines and taxes to well-governed (richer) countries while giving boons to badly governed (poor) countries in a true Equity, not Equality situation. Making everyone less well off. Not to mention having their hands in everything, trying to detail the minutiae of things like cucumber size and shapes for example. To say nothing of their intent within IT/internet circles (Chat Control, EUID, etc).
athenian200 wrote:
2026-05-29, 23:23
Yeah, I wasn't going to say anything because I assumed it was just me overthinking, but my only concern about saying it's "European-developed" or emphasizing that, is that people might read between the lines and hear it as, "This project is aligned with the interests of the EU and Brussels," which might play well in Europe proper, but may make people in other parts of the world (or even the UK) less comfortable.
I think European-Based would be a better alternative than European developed/development leadership.
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Re: Pale Moon's PR Problem

Post by athenian200 » 2026-05-30, 00:46

Gemmaugr wrote:
2026-05-29, 23:49
I think European-Based would be a better alternative than European developed/development leadership.
Interesting idea.

But yeah, hearing this, it sounds like Europeans are actually the most worried about the idea of the EU's interest being prioritized over their own national identities... apparently Britain wasn't alone in that discomfort?

Well, thinking about this, it seems like possibly the most neutral way of doing this I could think of would be to have whatever the European equivalent of an LLC is established for Moonchild Productions (I think it's an AB but not sure), and then say something like "Pale Moon is developed by Moonchild Productions AB, a Swedish limited-liability company which does not fall under US jurisdiction." I think corporate language referring to where something is incorporated sounds better to people than having to fall back on a person's citizenship or allegiance because that can evoke ideas of political alignment subconsciously.

For instance, if I had the resources to incorporate, I would much rather advertise Epyrus as "developed by Epyrus Limited, a Delaware LLC," if given the chance, rather than "American development leadership" or "developed by an American," because the first one lets people know who whose jurisdiction I'm under and that my goal is to make everyone's liability clear, without evoking images of the US flag, Silicon Valley, bald eagles, or the military. The problem being, of course, that MC and I may not have the resources to do that so easily. But if we could, it might help with perception.

I think this wound up being tough because usually by the time a project gets as big as Pale Moon is, an LLC or equivalent has been established. Trying to refer to your own citizenship and location as an individual and implying it's meaningful without sounding political is something that is surprisingly hard to do...
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