[Vent] Being Pale Moon user is frustrating

[UCyborg]

I'm not sure what sites to avoid anymore to avoid dreaded hangs / CPU spikes where the browser takes seconds before it responds again. Then I get the random permanent UI hangs where the only solution is terminating palemoon.exe and restarting.

I thought the latter stopped with recent update to latest version after not happening for over a week, but apparently not.

I don't like other browsers, they fail at other fundamentals that Pale Moon got right.

[Gemmaugr]

I'm not sure what sites to avoid anymore to avoid dreaded hangs / CPU spikes where the browser takes seconds before it responds again. Then I get the random permanent UI hangs where the only solution is terminating palemoon.exe and restarting.

I thought the latter stopped with recent update to latest version after not happening for over a week, but apparently not.

I don't like other browsers, they fail at other fundamentals that Pale Moon got right.

The last update did fix most of the silent crashes for me. I also rarely get hangs and almost never freezes where I need to terminate it. Youtube is the worst offender for both, but that should come as no surprise.

I like to rant and vent sometimes too. Totally understandable. I prefer solutions offered myself, but some just like commiseration and sympathies.

So in that vein, You might want to go over your whole setup, from missing programs to interfering programs to bit version to about:config changes to addons, because this shouldn't be the normal experience. If it still persists you could try frontend for problematic sites, or archive versions, or mobile-friendly pages, etc.

[sidology]

It's what it is. Not enough developers.

That's why I suggested (optionally) using WebView2 for user selected sites.
You don't even have to install WebView2, you can use the Fixed version.

Download the latest Fixed version (x64, not arm64): https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/m ... H#download

Extract that cab file to (for example) C:\Microsoft.WebView2.FixedVersionRuntime.142.0.3595.94.x64, rename it to C:\WebView2

Add this environment variable and that's it.

Code: Select all

Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00

[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Environment]
"WEBVIEW2_BROWSER_EXECUTABLE_FOLDER"="C:\\WebView2"

[billmcct]

I'm using the AVX2 builds and PM still hangs on certain pages. Checking ProcessExplorer, usually shows PM using over 3 GB of memory, requiring a restart to reduce the memory. I'm still getting silent crashes. PM just disappears off the screen. No crash reports of any kind. One page that will NEVER fully load for me is IMDB.com. All of this means nothing to me though. I have been using PM since early 2011 and have no intention of changing. I have been using r3dfox for my backup browser for sometime now. I use it for IMDB and it will fully load the pages.

[Moonchild]

Believe me, I totally get it. I have the occasional time where I just want shit to work for doing something quickly, and Pale Moon isn't always up to the task. The reasons for this are plenty, not just on our side, but also on the side of the internet at large. But we're also forced to be reactive to what is thrown at us, with very limited resources. The days of being able to be proactive in development are over because there aren't enough people helping with development in the project and additionally the drafts churn is unrelenting. So many things in standards and spec development are unnecessary and unrequested, but the old adage of "If you build it, they will come" is very much alive in the Chrome world. I don't blame the many people continuing to make a living by doing the work on what the Internet leans on, either - they are just making a living with what they are given. This goes all the way to the executive level where decisions are made not on technology but on what brings in the most margin -- and even that isn't entirely in their hands because {insert stakeholder (by)laws here}.

Remember: Pale Moon is released in the hope that it is useful. If it becomes too frustrating to use for you, then it may just have become less useful for you. We can't wave a wand and make everything work when what we are processing is foreign content out of our control. The trade-offs you have to make when switching to another browser will have to be yours to evaluate.
My own use of Pale Moon hasn't changed much; it does just fine with 95% of websites (or more) that I visit. I use a Blink-based browser for the other 5%. Your balance may be different. I also have not seen many hangs and I don't usually encounter any crashes at all. So, being a Pale Moon user... is it frustrating? Not for me. There's the occasion "sigh ok I'll use the other browser" when running into another lazy framework/template site that provides 0 fallback, but it doesn't frustrate me, more like disappointment.

[andyprough]

I'm not sure what sites to avoid anymore to avoid dreaded hangs / CPU spikes where the browser takes seconds before it responds again. Then I get the random permanent UI hangs where the only solution is terminating palemoon.exe and restarting.

I thought the latter stopped with recent update to latest version after not happening for over a week, but apparently not.

I don't like other browsers, they fail at other fundamentals that Pale Moon got right.

a) eMatrix handles every last bit of that cpu spike stuff for me. If a site does manage to spike on eMatrix's defaults (which is rare), it only happens to me once.

and b) I can tell you from recent nightmares on systems at work, chromium-based browsers and Firefox-based browsers are completely crapping the bed right now.

The brand new locked-down and gated internet combined with Cloudflare, AWS and Azure routinely blanking out and taking down half the net with them means that the free and open internet of 2025 sucks big-time.

Maybe Servo or Ladybird will come riding to the rescue in 2026 or 2027. Although pre-alpha versions I've tried have not been terribly promising.

[UCyborg]

I like the browser in general and it's holding up pretty well, all things considered. I admire the developers' persistence throughout the years and donate to the project from time to time.

I'm just not well equipped to deal with random unexplainable problems. In the past, the most serious one was browser getting stuck in the loop due to running out of memory or memory fragmentation. I did use 32-bit build for the longest time, that issue was solved with 64-bit build. Though it's a bit strange freeing memory seemingly requires a bit of headroom.

Not sure what to make of GUI hangs. My config hasn't changed much with time. It could be something peculiar on my side, but where would I even start? I thought about creating dump file when it happens so maybe one of the devs would have a look. Maybe I should do it some other way or something's bugged on my systems, if I try to do it with System Informer, it either seems to spin forever on "Processing memory regions..." or errors out with "Incorrect function".

I'm using the AVX2 builds and PM still hangs on certain pages. Checking ProcessExplorer, usually shows PM using over 3 GB of memory, requiring a restart to reduce the memory. I'm still getting silent crashes. PM just disappears off the screen. No crash reports of any kind. One page that will NEVER fully load for me is IMDB.com. All of this means nothing to me though. I have been using PM since early 2011 and have no intention of changing. I have been using r3dfox for my backup browser for sometime now. I use it for IMDB and it will fully load the pages.

I know about silent crashes on Windows in general. There are two issues, Windows these days (since Win10) defaults to not showing error crash messages. Second issue is that there is a group policy setting to show them, but with uptime, something gets bugged and then crash dialogs don't display again. They do some filtering that is supposed to always exclude certain kind of processes and it seems to be where the issue is.

Someone made an utility to re-enable crash dialogs along with usual info about the crash.

https://github.com/tdebaets/wertweak

It's only source code though, so you'd need Visual Studio compile it. If you don't mind an older version, I have it compiled here: https://github.com/UCyborg/wertweak/releases (should get around to compiling new version sometime)

[billmcct]

I'm not sure what sites to avoid anymore to avoid dreaded hangs / CPU spikes where the browser takes seconds before it responds again. Then I get the random permanent UI hangs where the only solution is terminating palemoon.exe and restarting.

I thought the latter stopped with recent update to latest version after not happening for over a week, but apparently not.

I don't like other browsers, they fail at other fundamentals that Pale Moon got right.

I too don't like other browsers. There are very few left that allow UI changes to be made.
I don't really ever get CPU spikes. Running a Xeon processor with 8 cores, 16 threads has elevated that problem.
Also running 64GB of ECC memory, I never run out of memory. On my older Win 7 laptops I was forced to use the 32 bit
simply because I only had 8GB of memory with 7GB usable. At that time the 32 bit ran great. The 64 bit used way more memory. It just seems to me that PM doesn't want to handle more then 2.5 GB memory without lagging. Way back in v15 using Process explorer, I could visually see PM dropping memory usage when closing tabs. That is no longer the case. It seems to take forever to drop memory usage these days.

I know about silent crashes on Windows in general. There are two issues, Windows these days (since Win10) defaults to not showing error crash messages. Second issue is that there is a group policy setting to show them, but with uptime, something gets bugged and then crash dialogs don't display again. They do some filtering that is supposed to always exclude certain kind of processes and it seems to be where the issue is.

Someone made an utility to re-enable crash dialogs along with usual info about the crash.

https://github.com/tdebaets/wertweak

It's only source code though, so you'd need Visual Studio compile it. If you don't mind an older version, I have it compiled here: https://github.com/UCyborg/wertweak/releases (should get around to compiling new version sometime)

I have my Win 10 set to show BSOD screens instead of Smileys but the setting keeps resetting itself.
I tried the file you linked, however it just doesn't seem to run for me.
Bill

[Moonchild]

It just seems to me that PM doesn't want to handle more then 2.5 GB memory without lagging.

On 32-bit processes that's actually expected. Its address space is 4GB maximum and a good chunk of that is unaddressable on 32-bit operating systems, as well.

Way back in v15 using Process explorer, I could visually see PM dropping memory usage when closing tabs. That is no longer the case. It seems to take forever to drop memory usage these days.

It's still the case if websites use the normal trifecta of html/css/js with each for their own designated purpose (document structure/styling/active content), and even then it's not immediate on purpose for performance and caching reasons. Current website usage patterns often want many things re-used and available on-demand with minimal delay, which requires you don't immediately throw things away when a tab is closed.
The additional problem with "modern" websites is that you have a very JS top-heavy setup that creates really large and complicated data structures in memory that the garbage collector has to run in overtime for to understand and clean up. That takes time, especially if you don't want to interrupts the user in their continued browsing and need to "trickle" the cleanup tasks.

[UCyborg]

I tried the file you linked, however it just doesn't seem to run for me.

You don't run it, it has to be extracted and registry setting setup as instructed. Then you can tun WerTweakTest.exe / WerTweakTest64.exe, where you go to File->Crash! to test if error dialog shows up.

The main idea behind the utility is to show details of the crash. And you still need to have DontShowUI setting in registry set to 0 or rather it can be done with gpedit.msc, the setting is at Computer Configuration->Administrative Templates->Windows Components->Windows Error Reporting->Prevent display of the user interface for critical errors, put it to Disabled.

That problem with dialog not showing for regular GUI applications, it's possible that only some Windows versions are bugged. The Win10 20H2 build I have is a strange one. Win11 23H2 seems OK.

[UCyborg]

My own use of Pale Moon hasn't changed much; it does just fine with 95% of websites (or more) that I visit. I use a Blink-based browser for the other 5%. Your balance may be different.

So how come you're using Blink-based for the other 5% rather than Gecko-based? I'd assume most of us here would more naturally lean towards Gecko first, but Blink keeps coming up left and right.

It doesn't seem most people are even bothered by Skia's font rendering. Man, I've been on Linux installation for over an hour today and my eyes are in pain. I really need Windows + ClearType (tuned with ClearType Tuner) + Pale Moon. Too bad the only other browser with sorta OK font rendering is Edge, the rest need CSS / userscript hacks. Today's Microsoft's offerings are full of shit, I read they even put Copilot in Game Bar on Windows 11.

[Moonchild]

So how come you're using Blink-based for the other 5% rather than Gecko-based? I'd assume most of us here would more naturally lean towards Gecko first, but Blink keeps coming up left and right.

Because if I'm going to use a fallback for a Chrome-centric web, I don't want to use something that would potentially still not work because Mozilla didn't get their porting of Chromisms right the first time. Basically a case of "I want to have my fallback special browser work all the time, every time".
Also, since Firefox went all Google anyway (including Skia which, as you observed, gives terrible font rendering) and I don't want to have to wrangle it and have Mozilla happily gobble up detailed telemetry anyway, I use Edge as my Blink-based browser for the other 5%

[van p]

Moonchild, I'm no expert on anything computer, but I know Edge is from The Evil One. Isn't Edge full of spying, telemetry, and such? Also, TEO is the home of Windows, which everybody loves to hate and gets worse with every iteration. Why aren't you using some other Chromium-based browser? You're feeding the beast, aren't you?

[Moonchild]

You're feeding the beast, aren't you?

Not with how ive set it up.

[van p]

Not with how ive set it up.

So you're saying any noob can go into the settings and lock everything down so that TEO gets little or nothing out of that person's use of Edge? Also, somebody I work with says he has done that with Chrome. Is that possible?

EDIT: If both Edge and Chrome can be locked down, does it matter which one a person uses?

[Michaell]

I doubt any chromium based browser can be locked down unless you do your own custom build and put a lot of work into configuring that. I used to keep Ungoogled Chromium as one of my backup browsers, but I gave up when it kept removing my extensions and I couldn't get new ones because they changed the site to require login. I think they messed up on Ungoogled Chromium when they didn't setup an alternative extension site for it. Never tried new Edge; still just have Win 10 Edge that almost never gets used. I have the Opera look alike version of Chromium, Vivaldi, but can't remember last time I used it. I even gave up on Firefox ESR when it deleted my extensions without even displaying a warning. Librewolf is my first choice in backup browsers but it doesn't have a umatrix/ematrix web ext alternative, and NoScript is not as good (I do have uBlockOrigin there at least).

p.s., I don't know what TEO is.

[van p]

I doubt any chromium based browser can be locked down unless you do your own custom build and put a lot of work into configuring that.

Moonchild says he's done something like that (don't know about the "custom build" part). I'm hoping he'll give us some details about that.

p.s., I don't know what TEO is.

TEO = The Evil One (M$), as mentioned a few posts above.

[moonbat]

I used to keep Ungoogled Chromium as one of my backup browsers, but I gave up when it kept removing my extensions and I couldn't get new ones because they changed the site to require login. I think they messed up on Ungoogled Chromium when they didn't setup an alternative extension site for it.

What are you on about? On first install it offers to add an extension that makes it compatible with the Chrome extensions site. Got mine running with uBlock Origin for the 5 years or so I've had it.

Chromium web store.png

[Michaell]

1) I DON'T TAKE KINDLY TO MY INSTALLED EXTENSIONS BEING REMOVED.
2) I DON'T WANT TO USE THE PLAY STORE OR ANY GOOGLE SITES, EVER.
Capiche!?

[moonbat]

1) I DON'T TAKE KINDLY TO MY INSTALLED EXTENSIONS BEING REMOVED.
2) I DON'T WANT TO USE THE PLAY STORE OR ANY GOOGLE SITES, EVER.
Capiche!?

QUIT SHOUTING AND BE CIVIL OR GET LOST. CaPiChE?

Don't start or fuel flame wars. #