Similarly privacy-focused Pale Moon alternatives?

[suzyne]

I am asked to define what I mean by slick and modern, for which I give some examples of incredibly popular websites, and in return reasons are given about why it is good that Pale Moon isn't great for them.

So now we have gone from...

Because many (if not all) well-built modern and slick websites which follow established standards work very well with Pale Moon.

To in effect saying that my examples don't count because they harvest data and sell out their users for money. Of course, those sites do that because they are in the business of making profits.

It is too easy to say that Pale Moon works very well, when there are shifting goal posts about what counts as a "modern site", which allows the exclusion of sites based on some other criteria like whether the site has good privacy policies, or whatever.

[Moonchild]

It is too easy to say that Pale Moon works very well, when there are shifting goal posts about what counts as a "modern site"

I absolutely agree with your criticism about the discussion thread's weave.

At the same time, the "shifting goal posts" for "a modern site" are a defining characteristic of "modern". After all... what is a "modern" website? In 2010, "modern" was something completely different than in 2020, by the modern devs' own standards.
Some would say a "modern" site is any site that focuses on mobile-first technology and resulting styles (i.e. the pendulum having swung from desktop too far into mobile, instead of using proper responsive design)
Others would say any website that builds on one of the major frameworks, regardless of style.

All I can say to that is that in general, website devs who use traditional design methods (whether responsive or not) produce sites that tend to be snappier and much easier on any browser; knowing that most if not all "modern" websites go through a ton of JavaScript to generate visual content (instead of the HTML/CSS/JS trifecta) is a big part of that equation. Not to mention that traditional design also avoids "template fatigue", i.e. all sites looking pretty much the same.

[Pelican]

After all... what is a "modern" website?

Exactly!

We are currently going though the nightmare of interviewing SEO experts and sifting though a lot of nonsense, such as list of backlinks that are bad for our reputation. Looking through one list of 40,000 backlinks I see that most websites were closed more than 10 years ago, and back in the day those sites were not spammy at all.

Anyway, what really peeved me was a comment made by one of these creatures that our website design looked old!

Over the last few years I have noticed more and more websites switching to WordPress. For some it may be convenience, but when one looks at all of the interesting themes on offer and how easy it is for novice to create a professionally looking website, one can understand the popularity.

But that is where the problem lies. Too many websites look professional, even when they have weak content and weak product. They are all screaming professional, but they are all looking the same. So much the same that whenever I am faced with one during research, that I fear that even when scrolling down that page that I will see nothing but bullshit, neatly arranged into tiny columns, each adorned with a graphic of little consequence. Yep, 9 times out of 10, nothing but BS.

Is that what these muppets call "modern"?

[suzyne]

After all... what is a "modern" website?

Exactly!

I guess there can be debate about the time frame for the word recent in the definition below, but there's little mystery about what modern means. It's not an obscure or rarely used word.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=modern+definition&ia=web&t=palemoon

Even so, I appreciate that there is an element of subjectivity and taste.

Off-topic:
Because of that, as I offered, I would love to know the Pale Moon users opinions on the top three modern looking websites that they visit!

[Moonchild]

there's little mystery about what modern means

The term itself, sure, but not how it applies to (web) design. There are no "established schools" here that could make something contemporary or not -- instead it falls into popularity classes.

[Pelican]

Does it matter what the term "modern" is applied to? It all means the same thing and being "modern" doesn't necessarily mean that it is an improvement.

One only has to look at the fashion industry to see how their "modern" has grown into something so grotesque that no excuses can justify it.

[frostknight]

After all... what is a "modern" website?

Just something with a design that is less than 8 years old as far as I know... something similar to that I think.

[suzyne]

My original comment is that I think it is good that the default Pale Moon theme looks (what is an appropriate label?) say, out-of-date, classic, old-fashioned, or something else.

All I was trying to say is that if Pale Moon had a similar look to the style of the majority of popular browser updates from the past several years, then it might confound users expectations of the types of sites that Pale Moon is ideal to use on.

I don't care that much about the usage or meaning of the word modern, and so I don't feel a need to discuss that further.

[Pelican]

if Pale Moon had a similar look to the style of the majority of popular browser updates from the past several years

Strange that on my PC, Mac and Linux desktops, that PM looks the same as the the browser brands, and they are all up to date.

[Moonchild]

All I was trying to say is that if Pale Moon had a similar look to the style of the majority of popular browser updates from the past several years, then it might confound users expectations of the types of sites that Pale Moon is ideal to use on.

I don't really think that matters or is something people are considering, overall.
Maaaybe at a subconscious level it is a factor for some, but I think what matters overall more is web compatibility and things like operational stability and privacy, when it comes to what browser people choose. OP is a bit of an outlier in that respect as they do seem to accept it's a modern and maintained browser, but at the same time just complain about the way it looks.

[Kris_88]

What's the problem? I think the developers can do it in a modern way. Remove all menus and toolbars, add one hamburger. Let this hamburger open a menu with a few basic functions, and all other functions will be randomly hidden/showed and sorted. It will be a very modern look.

[Moonchild]

What's the problem? I think the developers can do it in a modern way. Remove all menus and toolbars, add one hamburger. Let this hamburger open a menu with a few basic functions, and all other functions will be randomly hidden/showed and sorted. It will be a very modern look.

And the funny thing is: if someone wanted to create a theme for Pale Moon that does this... they probably could (maybe with a helper extension to shuffle controls around).

[andyprough]

Strange that on my PC, Mac and Linux desktops, that PM looks the same as the the browser brands, and they are all up to date.

Same here. Probably the look and feel depends more on your particular desktop environment than anything that PM is doing. On my system they all look basically the same, except Mullvad Browser uses letterboxing by default.

Pale Moon

PM2.jpg

Mullvad

firefox.jpg

Brave

Brave.jpg

[Moonchild]

Mullvad does something weird, for sure - that whitespace around the site's content is definitely not part of the forum styling.

[andyprough]

Mullvad does something weird, for sure - that whitespace around the site's content is definitely not part of the forum styling.

It's called Letterboxing - it's something the Tor Browser started doing awhile back to only use certain browser window sizes in order to cut down on the avenues for fingerprinting. I'm not convinced that it's terribly useful in most cases as I think most sites don't put a huge amount of resources into fingerprinting. Seems like Pale Moon with canvas poisondata enabled and behind a vpn is going to be pretty hard to fingerprint consistently. I'm more of a fan of randomized anti-fingerprinting than run-with-the-herd anti-fingerprinting.

[Moonchild]

Ah, ok. I get it. I'm not sure how useful using that as a fingerprinting property is to begin with. If people use a browser maximized it's likely going to give the exact same metrics for all users with that screen size (unless they've messed with window metrics to change border size which is... very rare these days). If they aren't using the browser maximized, then the fingerprint will be invalidated every time the user resizes their browser window... But they can do their thing, I guess.

[Falna]

All I was trying to say is that if Pale Moon had a similar look to the style of the majority of popular browser updates from the past several years, then it might confound users expectations of the types of sites that Pale Moon is ideal to use on.

I don't really think that matters or is something people are considering, overall.
Maaaybe at a subconscious level it is a factor for some, but I think what matters overall more is web compatibility and things like operational stability and privacy, when it comes to what browser people choose.

For me it's more than subconscious; psychology inevitably plays a part, but experience does too.

If I go hunting for some software solution - as I do from time to time - and come across something with a seriously old/classic UI, my first thought is to wonder whether the code is equally old/classic and, therefore, whether it does still have adequate compatibility/functionality/easy of use/stability/privacy. It may eventually get chosen but, absent a strong recommendation, it will slide down my list of possible solutions and will never get tested unless the initially 'more promising' solutions turn out to be inadequate. It normally saves time doing it that way.

I would love to know the Pale Moon users opinions on the top three modern looking websites that they visit!

I don't have any particular favorites but, since I come across hundreds of websites over the course of a month, it's difficult to avoid absorbing the main UI trends. Some of which I like, some of which I don't.

[Gemmaugr]

I would love to know the Pale Moon users opinions on the top three modern looking websites that they visit!

Almost forgot this, though I meant to reply.

Frankly, I highly dislike the modern trend of smartphone-first vertical and minimalist design.
Endless scrolling (and loading content).
Menu's and links hidden in drop-down or hamburger things.
Forced and wasted space on the sides of the site.
Content becoming Overlays that can't be New-Tabbed.
Overly large and oddly-aligned images or content.
Requirement of blink-specific "feature" or bloated javascript usage.

[frostknight]

. I'm not convinced that it's terribly useful in most cases as I think most sites don't put a huge amount of resources into fingerprinting. Seems like Pale Moon with canvas poisondata enabled and behind a vpn is going to be pretty hard to fingerprint consistently. I'm more of a fan of randomized anti-fingerprinting than run-with-the-herd anti-fingerprinting.

VPN... I use privoxy currently among other things.

[Lucio Chiappetti]

Frankly, I highly dislike the modern trend of smartphone-first vertical and minimalist design.

I share all of your dislike