CloudFlare discussion thread

General project discussion.
Use this as a last resort if your topic does not fit in any of the other boards but it still on-topic.
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This General Discussion board is meant for topics that are still relevant to Pale Moon, web browsers, browser tech, UXP applications, and related, but don't have a more fitting board available.

Please stick to the relevance of this forum here, which focuses on everything around the Pale Moon project and its user community. "Random" subjects don't belong here, and should be posted in the Off-Topic board.
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Gemmaugr
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Re: CloudFlare discussion thread

Post by Gemmaugr » 2026-05-03, 07:35

flamelord wrote:
2026-05-03, 04:16
Well, adopting Quantum wouldn't be ''surrendering to Google''.

You're not going to convince many people to use PM. There is no universe where Pale Moon becomes a mainstream browser.
Adding a few more users won't change anything.
Quantum would be surrendering to google, because Servo is written in Rust, which is controlled by google (and Amazon, chromium browser Silk, and Microsoft, chromium browser edge, and Huawei, chromium browser Huawei).

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Re: CloudFlare discussion thread

Post by Moonchild » 2026-05-03, 08:11

Adopting Rust/Servo isn't possible anymore in UXP. That ship sailed almost 10 years ago.
Any major technology shift like that simply can't be done in the platform because it would require wholesale adoption of vastly different platform code (at which point it is no longer UXP) because there would be a decade-sized gap between what we could adopt closer to us and what is current. All of this is off-topic here, though.

CloudFlare simply doesn't cater to/shouldn't require specific architectural designs in a browser engine to pass their checks. The whole point of having an abstraction layer in terms of web languages (html/css/js) is so that the details of the underlying implementation shouldn't matter. The problem is that CloudFlare is choosing to make specific checks for implementation-specific behaviour, in an attempt to "sort out" what they classify as "bots". That is literally the wrong approach to take beyond the most obvious checks. The moment they start checking for things that are not ubiquitous in all browsers or under the control of an end-user (like privacy controls, fingerprinting resistance, or security measures) then they are literally gatekeeping the internet to a too specific selection of browsers, configurations, and users, especially for websites that do not require that stringent of a selection in their own policies. They are effectively intruding on and interfering with (and making decisions for) website owners and users.

A paradigm shift is required here: CF needs to make better use of their traffic analysis capabilities (which I absolutely know they have, having been a client of them and having had access to their more advanced reporting and filtering features as a Pro client) and do pattern recognition on the traffic, rather than making everything pivot on how web clients identify themselves. It's clear that "bot detection" by checking web client properties isn't possible when plenty of bots are, in fact, electron-based or webview based, or WebDriver enabled applications that, for all intents and purposes, identify exactly like Chrome or webkit or Gecko. Targeting anything outside of their "turnstile supported short-list" (Google Chrome (desktop and mobile), Mozilla Firefox, Safari, Microsoft Edge and Samsung Internet Browser) as something needing extra scrutiny while still clearly behaving as a web browser, is nothing short of an unfair practice.

Speaking of unfair practices, what CloudFlare is doing might run afoul of Europe's Digital Markets Act -- while initially written to prevent operating systems from preferring/forcing specific software without user choice, this applies to any company that can be classified as a "gatekeeper", which CF most certainly is with its large market share and omnipresence on the web as a whole these days.
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Re: CloudFlare discussion thread

Post by flamelord » 2026-05-04, 05:44

Moonchild wrote:
2026-05-03, 04:56
flamelord wrote:
2026-05-03, 04:18
was referring to that guy with the moon in his username who dismisses my(and others) issues with CF
Really now? Maybe that guy with the flame in his usename needs to stop making assumptions about what I do and do not "dismiss".
Wasn't referring to you. I was referring to the back2themoon guy. His username is pretty long so I have trouble remembering it.

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Re: CloudFlare discussion thread

Post by flamelord » 2026-05-04, 05:53

Gemmaugr wrote:
2026-05-03, 07:35

Quantum would be surrendering to google, because Servo is written in Rust, which is controlled by google (and Amazon, chromium browser Silk, and Microsoft, chromium browser edge, and Huawei, chromium browser Huawei).

"Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win".
Well, either way older Gecko and Goanna is ''outdated''.
We really need more alternative browser engines out there. The only one I'm aware of is that Ladybird project, but /g/ doesn't seem to have much faith in it.
Maybe it succeeds and LibWeb becomes a viable choice.
Remains to be seen.

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Re: CloudFlare discussion thread

Post by Moonchild » 2026-05-04, 07:03

Off-topic:
flamelord wrote:
2026-05-04, 05:44
Wasn't referring to you.
You could have been, with how you've just been a negative Nancy lately.
flamelord wrote:
2026-05-04, 05:53
Well, either way older Gecko and Goanna is ''outdated''.
Older Gecko is, Goanna is not. You've been on the forum almost 1.5 years and still have trouble grasping what we do here.
flamelord wrote:
2026-05-04, 05:53
We really need more alternative browser engines out there.
I completely agree there, for a change. But "alternative browser engines" will all end up in the same situation we are in as long as Google has a monopoly and a firm grasp on what is being written into the "standards", helped by their controlled opposition Mozilla dutifully providing the "second vote". And once it's "in", they have already made very clear that any "counter votes" are unlikely to have it changed.
The problem is also traction - as long as alternative engines are held to an impossible-to-achieve standard because specs are changed out from under them and new fluff gets added (and slurped up by web designers as "make work" to ensure their own job security, instead of just making something "good and compatible") then it will be very difficult for any other engines to gain traction in the market.

But, all of this is really tangential to Cloudflare discussions (the only overlap would be to somehow force CF to add compatibility to more engines? Good luck with that if they can't even add long-standing, existing engines like Goanna properly, what makes you think they would add brand new ones that behave differently as well?...) so if you want to discuss that further, please make another thread or move it to a relevant one.
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Re: CloudFlare discussion thread

Post by back2themoon » 2026-05-04, 10:13

flamelord wrote:
2026-05-04, 05:44
... I have trouble remembering it.
Get off 4chan and you might start remembering again.

Then, try making an educated effort to solve your Cloudflare problems, which are clearly exclusive to your system instead of posting incessantly about the exact same issue.

Everyone knows you have a Cloudflare/4chan issue, and everyone is trying to fix CF. You'll have to wait with the rest of us for a permanent solution. Meanwhile, use a 4chan/CF-friendly browser if it matters that much to you. You seem to dismiss Pale Moon anyway.

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Re: CloudFlare discussion thread

Post by flamelord » 2026-05-04, 21:17

back2themoon wrote:
2026-05-04, 10:13

Get off 4chan and you might start remembering again.
Piss off.
Don't tell me how I should be spending my own time and what websites I should be using.

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Re: CloudFlare discussion thread

Post by back2themoon » 2026-05-04, 21:21

- Have you no idea what irony is?
- Yeah, it's like goldy and bronzy, only it's made out of iron.

flamelord wrote:
2026-05-04, 21:17
various nonsense
Not going anywhere.

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Re: CloudFlare discussion thread

Post by Moonchild » 2026-05-04, 22:30

Get a room, you two.
Stop your bickering - next post in the same vein will result in cooldown periods.
"Praise from a narcissistic person is always a poison dart. They don't share the stage, so discernment matters." - Dr. Ramani
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Re: CloudFlare discussion thread

Post by frostknight » 2026-05-05, 00:34

Moonchild wrote:
2026-05-04, 22:30
Get a room, you two.
Stop your bickering - next post in the same vein will result in cooldown periods.
I hope its okay if I say something,

flamelord wrote:
2026-05-04, 21:17
Piss off.
Don't tell me how I should be spending my own time and what websites I should be using.
Try to chill, its not worth getting upset about. Goodness knows I need to remind myself sometimes.

back2themoon wrote:
2026-05-04, 10:13
Get off 4chan and you might start remembering again.

Then, try making an educated effort to solve your Cloudflare problems, which are clearly exclusive to your system instead of posting incessantly about the exact same issue.

Everyone knows you have a Cloudflare/4chan issue, and everyone is trying to fix CF. You'll have to wait with the rest of us for a permanent solution. Meanwhile, use a 4chan/CF-friendly browser if it matters that much to you. You seem to dismiss Pale Moon anyway.
The same goes for you...

And yes i know I am hardly one to talk, considering other issues/past

But its for that reason, I just want to offer you the advice, its not worth it either of you. Sometimes you need to get away before you go nuts...
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