CloudFlare discussion thread

[Moonchild]

Any news?

CF also hasn't answered me yet. Waiting for a response to my e-mail on Monday. Every day it goes without response lowers my expectations they are really invested in fixing their mess of a "bot detection" setup; and makes for a stronger case that their damage to our project is not unintentional.

[ownedbywuigi]

Any news?

CF also hasn't answered me yet. Waiting for a response to my e-mail on Monday. Every day it goes without response lowers my expectations they are really invested in fixing their mess of a "bot detection" setup; and makes for a stronger case that their damage to our project is not unintentional.

Still? They have to either be so unorganised or genuinely unwilling to leave the “Chromium bubble”

[flamelord]

CF also hasn't answered me yet. Waiting for a response to my e-mail on Monday. Every day it goes without response lowers my expectations they are really invested in fixing their mess of a "bot detection" setup; and makes for a stronger case that their damage to our project is not unintentional.

Well that's pretty obvious
Only Chrome and Firefox are allowed to exist
Firefox only to give the illusion that it's not a Google monopoly

Last year we had to make the issue a huge deal on HackerNews and other websites and it still took a month to fix the issue

[ownedbywuigi]

CF also hasn't answered me yet. Waiting for a response to my e-mail on Monday. Every day it goes without response lowers my expectations they are really invested in fixing their mess of a "bot detection" setup; and makes for a stronger case that their damage to our project is not unintentional.

Well that's pretty obvious
Only Chrome and Firefox are allowed to exist
Firefox only to give the illusion that it's not a Google monopoly

(in extension, Safari considering Google forked WebKit)

[Moonchild]

Well that's pretty obvious
Only Chrome and Firefox are allowed to exist
Firefox only to give the illusion that it's not a Google monopoly

Last year we had to make the issue a huge deal on HackerNews and other websites and it still took a month to fix the issue

Big picture, though, I have to take a different approach than what seems to be the case at first glance. I understand large organisations have momentum and things take time to change in such organisations. When I'm explicitly told that something is "not their intent" then I do have to take such statements into account and not assume anything that doesn't fit an assumed narrative is an outright lie. However, I'm not so naive as to take their word as gospel either, and I let actions speak for themselves at this point, and it doesn't look good for CF.

[billmcct]

I wonder what effect AI will have on being able to pass the captcha.
This seems to say that CloudFlare will be setting up customers servers for them.

https://www.neowin.net/news/ai-agents-c ... eir-users/

[Moonchild]

This seems to say that CloudFlare will be setting up customers servers for them.

I'm not sure in what way that would be important. Not like CF on the server side is rocket science. In fact, CF has made it as easy as possible for server operators to get started and get it set up (because that is directly in their interest). So that does feel like a misdirection of effort on CF's part. While it would be much more beneficial to have AI help with their traffic management to pattern-recognise bot traffic and act accordingly.
All of that though has no real bearing on our problems as a web client here.

[billmcct]

Well, here's hoping they could use AI to help with their traffic management to pattern-recognise bot traffic and act accordingly.

[Moonchild]

Seems we can expect some sort of response after the weekend. I did get a response from one of the CF people I spoke with, but it was just a one-liner stating "delays because of travel".
That really doesn't address the fact that their entire team has ostensibly done nothing to really address the problems on production sites OR the troubleshooter which I clearly indicated had priority in our meeting. So this is once again being put on "the slow track". Every day this is delayed, we lose more people in our user base, and I'm not sure what else to do.

[flamelord]

Seems we can expect some sort of response after the weekend. I did get a response from one of the CF people I spoke with, but it was just a one-liner stating "delays because of travel".
That really doesn't address the fact that their entire team has ostensibly done nothing to really address the problems on production sites OR the troubleshooter which I clearly indicated had priority in our meeting. So this is once again being put on "the slow track". Every day this is delayed, we lose more people in our user base, and I'm not sure what else to do.

Short of pulling an Opera/Vivaldi and adopting Chromium as an engine, or adopting Quantum, not sure what you can really do.
It's clear nobody seems to want to support Gecko and Goanna anymore.
Pale Moon would still be privacy focused just a different engine. Of course you would lose some features and add-ons, but might be time to cut losses at this point.

This is coming from somebody who used to be a diehard Presto Engine Opera fan and hates Google Chrome and the design of new Firefox.
The days of a Win7 holdout like me also seem numbered.

[back2themoon]

...not sure what you can really do... ...It's clear nobody seems to want to support Gecko and Goanna anymore...

Would you stop it with this nonsense? It's not all doom and gloom just because Cloudflare fails for you alone, and perhaps a few others.

Cloudflare's tool is currently slow on Pale Moon. Sometimes it is fast and passes quickly. The verification is successful for almost everyone, whether slow, normal, or fast.

The Cloudflare communication problem exists, it's old and needs to be solved - by them. If they keep stalling and not checking their tool on UXP before release, we've already proven we can fight back effectively.

[Gemmaugr]

Short of pulling an Opera/Vivaldi and adopting Chromium as an engine, or adopting Quantum, not sure what you can really do.
It's clear nobody seems to want to support Gecko and Goanna anymore.
Pale Moon would still be privacy focused just a different engine. Of course you would lose some features and add-ons, but might be time to cut losses at this point.

Continue as we have.
I'm pretty sure the amount of UXP/Goanna users have increased by quite a lot in recent years.
We're on talking terms with CF (..) and several sites have come here personally to interact with us the find some middle-ground.
The more we're known, the easier it'll get. Help spread the word. Talk (politely) with site owners.
Going all apathy and surrendering to google would be the worst thing to do. Especially at this point..

What would really help is having some neutral and unbiased security or privacy sites/experts do a full, deep, dive on the browser. To put all the dis&misinformation to rest.

[back2themoon]

Related tutorial added:
Cloudflare Turnstile: ηMatrix/uBlock Origin guide for proper function

[frostknight]

So this is once again being put on "the slow track". Every day this is delayed, we lose more people in our user base, and I'm not sure what else to do.

Given your user base, I think its good we even are on their track at all.

Corporations tend to avoid what they call little people if they can help it.

Its nice they are even attempting anything.

Although I understand its frustrating, given you have made many attempts to chat with them,

This is alas, what it means to be a corporation I think.. they have their heads in the clouds and think they are too good to deal with people such as yourself usually.

This is why i tend to hate corporations. I think you know that sentiment somewhat at least, here.

If I am wrong about any of your thoughts, feel free to correct me.

I definitely think you deserve better though

[jobbautista9]

Looks like Cloudflare's captcha now requires Performance Observers to be enabled now, otherwise it wouldn't even load the captcha at all and tell you that you're using an "unsupported browser". Just an FYI for those who have toggled it off after it became enabled by default recently.

[flamelord]

Would you stop it with this nonsense? It's not all doom and gloom just because Cloudflare fails for you alone, and perhaps a few others.

Cloudflare's tool is currently slow on Pale Moon. Sometimes it is fast and passes quickly. The verification is successful for almost everyone, whether slow, normal, or fast.

The Cloudflare communication problem exists, it's old and needs to be solved - by them. If they keep stalling and not checking their tool on UXP before release, we've already proven we can fight back effectively.

For me and for Kand on this forum afaik. But apparently we don't matter.
It's pretty obvious CF doesn't want to support anything but Chrome.

Moonchild himself says he doesn't know what else he can do, argue with him not with me.

[frostknight]

But apparently we don't matter.
It's pretty obvious CF doesn't want to support anything but Chrome.

One thing is for sure, palemoon is at best a 2nd or third class citizen to them

I think it is more that we don't matter much to be honest.

[flamelord]

Continue as we have.
I'm pretty sure the amount of UXP/Goanna users have increased by quite a lot in recent years.
We're on talking terms with CF (..) and several sites have come here personally to interact with us the find some middle-ground.
The more we're known, the easier it'll get. Help spread the word. Talk (politely) with site owners.
Going all apathy and surrendering to google would be the worst thing to do. Especially at this point..

What would really help is having some neutral and unbiased security or privacy sites/experts do a full, deep, dive on the browser. To put all the dis&misinformation to rest.

Well, adopting Quantum wouldn't be ''surrendering to Google''.
I don't know how much longer plain old Gecko and Goanna have, with how webpages become more and more bloated(to get you to buy new hardware).

Normies are going to continue using Chrome, or at most Brave since Chrome disabled access to uBlock/Adblock.
You're not going to convince many people to use PM. There is no universe where Pale Moon becomes a mainstream browser.
Adding a few more users won't change anything.

[flamelord]

One thing is for sure, palemoon is at best a 2nd or third class citizen to them

I think it is more that we don't matter much to be honest.

I was referring to that guy with the moon in his username who dismisses my(and others) issues with CF.
To CF? We aren't 3rd class citizens, more like peasants.

[Moonchild]

was referring to that guy with the moon in his username who dismisses my(and others) issues with CF

Really now? Maybe that guy with the flame in his usename needs to stop making assumptions about what I do and do not "dismiss".