Are any XUL applications outside UXP worth supporting?

[PseudoDistant]

I've used quite a few XUL browsers in my time..
I first started using Pale Moon a while back, after finding it to not be an absolute resource hog way back in the late 2010s.
(I work a lot with older niche hardware, so naturally, Puppy Linux was under my radar for a good long while.)
After a fateful encounter with New Tobin Paradigm, I was "encouraged" to find an alternative.
SeaMonkey was promising, until I had issues with half the websites I interact with not working.
Waterfox worked for a time, until it stopped being updated (and it's newer incarnations being basically worse Librewolf).
As such, I've become aware of multiple XUL browsers and applications.
Coming back now, people seem much friendlier in general, which I highly appreciate and I'm actually enjoying my deep dive down the XULRunner rabbit hole.
But I have to ask, moving forward with extension development, is it worth supporting SeaMonkey and Waterfox Classic?

I'm aware that WF Classic hasn't been updated since November 2022, but I know a couple of people still running Firefox 30 because they refused to install updates after that. I'm sure there are still WF Classic devotees. (I try to push them onto a platform that's actually being maintained, like Pale Moon, but they seem content running ancient Firefox on their desktop and Google Chrome on their phone.)
I'm also aware that SeaMonkey no longer supports Flash Player, I have other plans for extensions.

[moonbat]

Off-topic:

After a fateful encounter with New Tobin Paradigm, I was "encouraged" to find an alternative.

This is one thing I've never understood - why would you base your choice of software on one of the developer's personality, given that interacting on the forum isn't even a requirement to use the browser? Tobin's biggest flaw if it can be called that, was that he was blunt and never suffered fools. We've had plenty - the most common kind being the ones who will refuse to provide even the link of the site that doesn't work, let alone fill the troubleshooting template that was created to help us help them. Or other pricks that show up to rant about the browser being obsolete/slow and disappear - he flamed them good as they deserved.

But I have to ask, moving forward with extension development, is it worth supporting SeaMonkey and Waterfox Classic?

I would say not really - you'll have to create separate overlays for Seamonkey as it's somewhat different, and WF is based on the later Australis Firefox UI and will again require separate code. People accuse PM of dying - I'd say these two are more likely candidates. Seamonkey is stuck on an older version of FIrefox's platform code as the codebase continues to diverge from contemporary Firefox, and WF classic may well be abandoned.

[PseudoDistant]

Off-topic:

This is one thing I've never understood - why would you base your choice of software on one of the developer's personality, given that interacting on the forum isn't even a requirement to use the browser? Tobin's biggest flaw if it can be called that, was that he was blunt and never suffered fools. We've had plenty - the most common kind being the ones who will refuse to provide even the link of the site that doesn't work, let alone fill the troubleshooting template that was created to help us help them. Or other pricks that show up to rant about the browser being obsolete/slow and disappear - he flamed them good as they deserved.

I used to think much along the same lines, but around that time, I started to deal with other issues in the Minecraft modding community that kind of forced me to rethink my stance on people in general. In retrospect, maybe I swung too far the other way, but I was still younger at the time. I was also in a situation that made me very emotionally unstable.

I would say not really - you'll have to create separate overlays for Seamonkey as it's somewhat different, and WF is based on the later Australis Firefox UI and will again require separate code. People accuse PM of dying - I'd say these two are more likely candidates. Seamonkey is stuck on an older version of FIrefox's platform code as the codebase continues to diverge from contemporary Firefox, and WF classic may well be abandoned.

I'm kind of aware of the difference that SeaMonkey would have, but I wouldn't mind too much if people still used it. Going off of Google Trends, SeaMonkey and Pale Moon have more or less the same mindshare. Whether that translates to actual users, I can't say.

WF using Australis isn't an issue, I already support Basilisk, and don't mind the extra effort that goes into making it work (which really isn't that much tbh).

WF Classic is officially discontinued, but people still brag about using it on Reddit and say that Pale Moon is so horrible just use this demoted Waterfox branch that had only been sporadically touched up between 2017 and 2022.

[PseudoDistant]

Off-topic:

I used to think much along the same lines, but around that time, I started to deal with other issues in the Minecraft modding community that kind of forced me to rethink my stance on people in general.

Actually, after a bit of thought, definitely.. I was being harassed by some people who were in charge of a modloader that was trying to get off the ground. I was kind of put in the position of "if these people gain power, I won't be able to participate anymore. They'll cut me out!", so I gradually started to mentally associate what I perceived to be those kinds of people with that project. (I will not name it, I'd rather not bring the drama here.) So perhaps I had projected my feelings towards that project onto Tobin.

If you're reading this Tobin, I'm deeply sorry about my reservations, and my past behavior. It wasn't fair to you for me to make that jump. :pensive:

[moonbat]

WF Classic is officially discontinued, but people still brag about using it on Reddit and say that Pale Moon is so horrible just use this demoted Waterfox branch that had only been sporadically touched up between 2017 and 2022.

You sure you still want to support it?
XUL outside of UXP is as good as non-existent given these 2 are the only other browsers marginally using it and neither have a future. So I'd say stick to PM and Basilisk.

[PseudoDistant]

You sure you still want to support it?

It wouldn't be too much effort, and while I can discourage it all I want, I can't stop people from being delusional.
Basilisk and Waterfox Classic have the same Application ID (both of them being the same as Firefox), so extensions for Basilisk will install on WF Classic.
The only problem (as far as I've seen) stems from Waterfox Classic not having more modern JavaScript features like UXP does. But that's something it has in common with SeaMonkey, so if I end up supporting SeaMonkey, and Basilisk at the same time, I also end up supporting Waterfox Classic without any extra effort (or even intention!).

I could intentionally break WF Classic, by using more modern JavaScript features and therefore causing the extension to not work on Waterfox Classic, but I have a few issues with that approach:
1. I can't support SeaMonkey, either, since SM's JS support is only as good as WF Classic's.
2. I don't fundamentally agree with intentionally limiting the user's capability (as newer features aren't always necessary or even easier).
3. If I ever want to support TenFourFox (or whatever the new fork is called), I'm forced to support Waterfox Classic by proxy.

It's not so much that I necessarily want to, but under certain circumstances it might actually be more work to not support it.

EDIT: Also, while I agree that Waterfox Classic doesn't have a future, I think SeaMonkey will be around for quite a while longer.
There seem to be a lot of older people still using it after switching all the way back in the Netscape Communicator days.

Literally everyone I know who uses it either:
Uses older hardware, found mention of SeaMonkey on MDN, hadn't heard of UXP before, and enjoyed how well SeaMonkey ran on their 2006 Dell Latitude
Is older themselves, cannot move on, and uses it because muh Netscape.

We'll be stuck with it until they all die, unfortunately.

[suzyne]

Since I am not in the target audience for this question, anything I say can freely be ignored, but my first response is...

Why?

Wouldn't SeaMonkey fans already have the extensions that they need? Are they looking for more, or are they happy in theirs ways?

I would also be concerned about the potential time needed because even if it is technically straightforward to make a SeaMonkey variation of an extension that you are already working on, I imagine it could be the subsequent support that is the real grind.

So I guess, if you have the time and energy, it might be interesting supporting demanding extension uses. Have you asked on the SeaMonkey forums what they think?

[PseudoDistant]

Wouldn't SeaMonkey fans already have the extensions that they need? Are they looking for more, or are they happy in theirs ways?

Only in the sense that Pale Moon fans already have the extensions that they need. I can see where you're coming from, but more extensions don't really hurt.

I would also be concerned about the potential time needed because even if it is technically straightforward to make a SeaMonkey variation of an extension that you are already working on, I imagine it could be the subsequent support that is the real grind.

The thing is that I wouldn't need a "SeaMonkey variation of an extension", I can add SeaMonkey support to an existing XUL extension fairly easily so long as it's early enough in the development phase. The subsequent support wouldn't be any more of a grind than a normal XUL extension, except maybe some "decaying codebase" quirks like certain features just not working right (tho idk if I'd ever need the ones I know don't work).

So I guess, if you have the time and energy, it might be interesting supporting demanding extension uses. Have you asked on the SeaMonkey forums what they think?

tbh, no, SeaMonkey's remaining community seems very hostile against UXP as a platform... Unless SeaMonkey have a community outside of mozillaZine and Reddit. I'm not sure they'd take me seriously if I discussed expanding support for UXP addons to them. I might just immediately be labelled a "PMS" (I assume Pale Moon Simp, I know it's Pale Moon something at least) and shadow banned or whatever.

[athenian200]

The other two projects you mentioned are indeed still kinda supporting XUL extensions, but Waterfox Classic isn't seeing active development AFAIK, and SeaMonkey desperately wants to rebase on newer Mozilla code even if it means dropping XUL, but they want to preserve their UI and featureset which is going to be hard without XUL.

So I just don't think those projects are worth investing in if you are serious about a future for XUL. Notice how you said their JS engine was old... that will be a big problem because ours will be moving forwards, and theirs will likely be crippled and obsolete, and it may be hard to support XUL extensions on Pale Moon if you are limited to the subset of what is compatible with both SeaMonkey and Pale Moon.

One of the problems with XUL is that it was never conceived of as a cross-browser standard with stable APIs that could, in theory, be implemented by different browser engines. It was always designed to extend one specific codebase that was shared by Thunderbird, SeaMonkey, and Firefox at one point. That means other competing projects have slightly incompatible implementations of it, because they've all taken the code in different directions since forking off from Mozilla. Worse, they all forked off at different points. We forked at 52 and ripped out Rust, targeting the traditional Gecko engine, they forked at 56 and embraced Rust, and seem to have hit a dead end with it.

That is to say, I just really feel like targeting SeaMonkey or WF Classic will hold you back because of their JS limitations, and ultimately one project is dead and the other is working towards the day it can drop XUL and use upstream Mozilla code again, so it just doesn't seem like a good investment.

After a fateful encounter with New Tobin Paradigm, I was "encouraged" to find an alternative.

Off-topic:
I kind of want to apologize for that, as someone who turned a blind eye to his behavior for a lot longer than I should have. I worked closely with him, and I knew he was alienating potential developers/contributors, but I just rationalized to myself that he was worth 10 developers because of how hard he worked, and that we needed him. So I never reported his behavior, and pretty much went along with all his ideas. The truth is, I was willing to do anything to be a part of the project, and I wasn't willing to risk standing against him even when I thought he was in the wrong, because I felt it would jeopardize my position. Let's just say people who stood against him tended to disappear... I'm still scared enough of him that I don't even dare say his name.

[jobbautista9]

The only reason I still have SeaMonkey today is for their ChatZilla, which they've become the de-facto maintainer of, and their IRC client is better than Ambassador and standalone ChatZilla at the moment.

[PseudoDistant]

That is to say, I just really feel like targeting SeaMonkey or WF Classic will hold you back because of their JS limitations, and ultimately one project is dead and the other is working towards the day it can drop XUL and use upstream Mozilla code again, so it just doesn't seem like a good investment.

Understandable, though I'm not too sure SeaMonkey will ever hit that point, they'd have to somehow integrate their features into modern Gecko (afaik even Thunderbird still uses XUL, at least in some form). Right now it seems like the direction the Mozilla Trinity are going is:

Firefox increasingly slims down and eventually has nothing to differentiate it from Chrome (or worse: Baker's successor wants more money, rebases Firefox on Chromium, and kills off the remaining Gecko team).

Thunderbird becomes more and more independent (as they already are becoming), and kind of get locked in the limbo state they occupy right now mid-way between Classic and Modern Mozilla tech, assuming they even continue using Mozilla tech at all.

SeaMonkey slowly withers away as Thunderbird keeps eating it's features, and improving on them, leaving less of a reason to use SeaMonkey.

Off-topic:
I kind of want to apologize for that, as someone who turned a blind eye to his behavior for a lot longer than I should have. I worked closely with him, and I knew he was alienating potential developers/contributors, but I just rationalized to myself that he was worth 10 developers because of how hard he worked, and that we needed him. So I never reported his behavior, and pretty much went along with all his ideas. The truth is, I was willing to do anything to be a part of the project, and I wasn't willing to risk standing against him even when I thought he was in the wrong, because I felt it would jeopardize my position. Let's just say people who stood against him tended to disappear... I'm still scared enough of him that I don't even dare say his name.

You have nothing to apologize for, it's okay.
Here's a truth of my own: I also want to contribute to the project. With Firefox dying, and at this point being unsalvageable, I feel like Pale Moon and WebKit are the only ways forward for the open web (And WebKit is kinda... Eh..?).
That's one of my incentives to work on these projects, and learn as much as I can about them.
I do want to maintain Flashify, I think something like it deserves to exist.
I do want to make and maintain ChromeTab, for the same reason IE Tab existed way back when.
(And ChromeTab has already created some interest in Pale Moon in a few communities I'm active in, despite the fact that it doesn't even work yet.)
I have more ideas for extensions, which will remain private for now because idk if they're even possible yet.
But I also want to help UXP reach a point where it can be fully independent from Mozilla altogether.
I refuse to accept a Chrome-only future, IE6 was a nightmare, we don't need a second one.