Has there been any shift on the Pale Moon Team's stance on the return of a (quasi-)official Pale Moon IRC channel?

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Has there been any shift on the Pale Moon Team's stance on the return of a (quasi-)official Pale Moon IRC channel?

Unread post by Tharthan » 2024-02-05, 03:38

athenian200 wrote:
2022-04-08, 03:10
I think an overreliance on IRC as a communication channel resulted in the project being less organized than it should have been. Having an IRC channel means fewer threads discussing technical issues come up on the forums, meaning things don't get documented so others can find them. A chat where all the active developers hang out in particular also incentivizes laziness about creating actual issues and discussing the problems in formally filed issues so that there's something to look back on later in understanding what was done.
While respecting these points, I wonder whether the Pale Moon Team's stance on the question of whether there ought to be an official or quasi-official Pale Moon IRC channel has changed at all.

I do see that there is an unofficial Pale Moon IRC channel (#palemoon) on Libera.Chat. I'm not sure to what extent the nicks there match with Pale Moon forum usernames, but I don't see anyone there that looks familiar.

Is it still the view of the Pale Moon Team that a Pale Moon IRC channel is, today, unhelpful to the project and/or undesired by the community?
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Re: Has there been any shift on the Pale Moon Team's stance on the return of a (quasi-)official Pale Moon IRC channel?

Unread post by Moonchild » 2024-02-05, 06:54

IRC = internet relic chat.

Basically, it's a massive time sink that doesn't really help any of us.
As for the libera chat channel... the issues with that have been discussed before and it's no different than /r/palemoon on reddit: run by people who claimed it and don't really want official devs there so they can spin their own self-important clique, which apparently something seen as a holy grail by people who run the services. something something freedom something
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Re: Has there been any shift on the Pale Moon Team's stance on the return of a (quasi-)official Pale Moon IRC channel?

Unread post by athenian200 » 2024-02-05, 21:18

Well, the main value of IRC back when it was up, in my view, was that it was usable with our own tech in the form of Ambassador. Now that Ambassador is basically dead and the status of the branding is up in the air, there isn't much point in sticking with IRC for something like that.

Not to say that I'm totally closed off from having any kind of online chat in the future, but I don't see any special reason to make it an IRC channel rather than look into something a bit more modern, if we're starting over anyway.

The main issue with IRC is something that came up during the final hours... there is no host I feel like I would trust for it. I don't quite trust libera.chat, Freenode has its own issues, and we were relying on BinOC to provide the hosting. In other words, you-know-who was our IRC server guy, and we already came to the conclusion that we don't want anything to do with the two main providers of IRC channels anymore due to previous difficulties. That hasn't changed as far as I know, and if anything we're even more wary of infrastructure we don't control than we were when the IRC channel moved to BinOC servers in the first place.

I doubt MC would go for this, but I'd rather just have a good old-fashioned forum shoutbox plugin that's integrated into this community, rather than bother with IRC again. I like forum shoutboxes better than IRC anyway, because you can get new topic/topic reply notifications as you're speaking, it automatically requires a forum account as a prerequisite for entering the shoutbox, all the forum rules apply automatically, etc. The main issue is that you need more moderators to make something like that work, for obvious reasons. Also, it can increase load on the server.
Off-topic:
I will say though, on another forum I used to frequent, I was mad when they replaced their shoutbox with an IRC channel that wasn't as good. That was the reason why I had to learn how to use IRC in the first place, and honestly I never liked it, but I got used to it. I hated it because people who weren't from the forum kept dropping in, there were all these people messing around with bots and slash commands, etc. It was just annoying.
Why did I go back to it? Honestly, because it was the easiest way to communicate with you-know-who, he preferred it over the forum, and I was working with him a lot back then. So for me at least, being on IRC was more a concession to someone who is no longer around than anything I actively liked.

The easiest thing to do, though, would be to create a Discord server. Not ideal because Pale Moon doesn't fully support Discord's feature set, but it's a lot less setup than an IRC server, and wouldn't put load on the forum server like a shoutbox would.

Basically, if we ever do something like that again, it will likely not be an IRC channel, and one of the main problems would be finding moderators and figuring out how to avoid overloading our resources or putting trust in the wrong hands.
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Re: Has there been any shift on the Pale Moon Team's stance on the return of a (quasi-)official Pale Moon IRC channel?

Unread post by suzyne » 2024-02-06, 01:07

athenian200 wrote:
2024-02-05, 21:18
The easiest thing to do, though, would be to create a Discord server.
I am on a few discords and love the platform, and with the continuing Pale Moon updates I find it keeps working better and better in this browser.

But the discords that I find most engaging are the ones where the discord is a replacement for having a forum. For websites that have a forum and a discord, I usually find the forums are the superior resource and the discord is more likely to contain less relevant chatter.
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Re: Has there been any shift on the Pale Moon Team's stance on the return of a (quasi-)official Pale Moon IRC channel?

Unread post by frostknight » 2024-02-06, 04:10

If I had to choose between reddit, irc and discord, the order of importance:

irc
reddit (also lots, probably, but not hard to dodge usually, ie some topics cause much more)
discord (lots of toxicity)
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Re: Has there been any shift on the Pale Moon Team's stance on the return of a (quasi-)official Pale Moon IRC channel?

Unread post by Tharthan » 2024-02-06, 04:10

athenian200 wrote:
2024-02-05, 21:18
Not to say that I'm totally closed off from having any kind of online chat in the future, but I don't see any special reason to make it an IRC channel
Well, yeah, there's no particular need for it to be an IRC channel specifically, but having an IRC channel is both in line with A. what a number of other FOSS projects do, and also is in accordance with what the Pale Moon project had itself done up until a few years ago.
athenian200 wrote:
2024-02-05, 21:18
The easiest thing to do, though, would be to create a Discord server.
:thumbdown:
athenian200 wrote:
2024-02-05, 21:18
wouldn't put load on the forum server like a shoutbox would.
A shoutbox is much more palatable IMHO, but if it's too much of a burden on the server, then I understand why we don't have one for this forum. Maybe there are other reasons, too.
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Re: Has there been any shift on the Pale Moon Team's stance on the return of a (quasi-)official Pale Moon IRC channel?

Unread post by FranklinDM » 2024-02-06, 04:33

athenian200 wrote:
2024-02-05, 21:18
The easiest thing to do, though, would be to create a Discord server.
IIRC Pale Moon already has a Discord server, it's just not actively used and promoted since it was a temporary measure when the forum went down a while back.

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Re: Has there been any shift on the Pale Moon Team's stance on the return of a (quasi-)official Pale Moon IRC channel?

Unread post by athenian200 » 2024-02-06, 07:47

Tharthan wrote:
2024-02-06, 04:10
Well, yeah, there's no particular need for it to be an IRC channel specifically, but having an IRC channel is both in line with A. what a number of other FOSS projects do, and also is in accordance with what the Pale Moon project had itself done up until a few years ago.
Right, but I think that an IRC server just doesn't make sense for us anymore. Ambassador is no longer a thing since Ascrod had to move on with his life, and the main guy who really wanted IRC and did most of the work to maintain the server is no longer on our team. That leaves me, MC, and Travis as the entire core "Pale Moon team" (to the extent such a thing even exists anymore), and none of us particularly like IRC enough to revive it. Not only that, I would unofficially beg our forum members to either avoid IRC, or at least avoid discussion of Pale Moon or UXP on big IRC networks like Freenode or LiberaChat, as that tends to draw attention from parties we would rather not have the attention of...
A shoutbox is much more palatable IMHO, but if it's too much of a burden on the server, then I understand why we don't have one for this forum. Maybe there are other reasons, too.
Definitely my preference too, if anything is to be done at all. I don't know how much of a burden it would be, honestly, that was just what I was told on one forum for why they got rid of theirs. On the other hand, I once had a forum with about 7 active users once and had a shoutbox on that, and it really wasn't a problem at that scale. Though it was vBulletin and not phpBB, so that doesn't really give us a good indication.
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Re: Has there been any shift on the Pale Moon Team's stance on the return of a (quasi-)official Pale Moon IRC channel?

Unread post by Moonchild » 2024-02-06, 17:16

athenian200 wrote:
2024-02-06, 07:47
I don't know how much of a burden it would be, honestly, that was just what I was told on one forum for why they got rid of theirs.
Well, there would be first the necessity to figure out if it's even easily possible on phpBB (I don't think it ever had shoutbox functionality) but the bigger issue is going to be spam and the need for moderation 24/7 (so likely at least 3 mods with spread out time zones). And i really don't see that happening. We've already got spammers constantly trying to "SEO" on the forum with posts; so any real-time chat without holding back initial posts is going to be jumped on by them.
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Re: Has there been any shift on the Pale Moon Team's stance on the return of a (quasi-)official Pale Moon IRC channel?

Unread post by therube » 2024-02-06, 17:17

(For those who didn't know what a "shoutbox" is, looks like..., https://ishoutbox.com/.)

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Re: Has there been any shift on the Pale Moon Team's stance on the return of a (quasi-)official Pale Moon IRC channel?

Unread post by frostknight » 2024-02-06, 20:36

therube wrote:
2024-02-06, 17:17
(For those who didn't know what a "shoutbox" is, looks like..., https://ishoutbox.com/.)
I am aware of what a shoutbox is, I been on some gaming websites so... yeah.

Some unofficial blizzard gaming websites had them. I usually only ever allowed those scripts if I was curious if anything changed in comments. IE, if you block certain scripts upgrades to the current shoutbox feed is less likely. This coming from someone who used to use noscript a hell of a lot. :P
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Re: Has there been any shift on the Pale Moon Team's stance on the return of a (quasi-)official Pale Moon IRC channel?

Unread post by Tharthan » 2024-02-06, 23:18

therube wrote:
2024-02-06, 17:17
(For those who didn't know what a "shoutbox" is, looks like..., https://ishoutbox.com/.)
More like this, at least when in an internet forum context:

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Re: Has there been any shift on the Pale Moon Team's stance on the return of a (quasi-)official Pale Moon IRC channel?

Unread post by moonbat » 2024-02-07, 03:54

A chatroom can never be a substitute for a discussion board. It's another thing if you create a chatroom (IRC/Discord/whatever) hosted elsewhere if the goal is just for people to shoot the shit and explicitly direct all support requests back to the forum where they can be properly responded to and be searchable laterC
There's a reason IRC and NNTP both coexisted after all, entirely different use cases 8-)

And well, other FOSS projects may be using IRC but the same problem will arise as already someone mentioned earlier, and one can't easily search an endless IRC thread the way one can with a forum.
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Re: Has there been any shift on the Pale Moon Team's stance on the return of a (quasi-)official Pale Moon IRC channel?

Unread post by therube » 2024-02-07, 16:56

Off-topic:
For those who didn't know what a "shoutbox" is
I left out the, "like me" part of that.
For those who didn't know what a "shoutbox" is, like me, ...

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Re: Has there been any shift on the Pale Moon Team's stance on the return of a (quasi-)official Pale Moon IRC channel?

Unread post by Greywool » 2024-02-16, 00:02

Moonchild wrote:
2024-02-05, 06:54
IRC = internet relic chat.

Basically, it's a massive time sink that doesn't really help any of us.
Don't muchly disagree with this.
Moonchild wrote:
2024-02-05, 06:54
As for the libera chat channel... the issues with that have been discussed before and it's no different than /r/palemoon on reddit: run by people who claimed it and don't really want official devs there so they can spin their own self-important clique, which apparently something seen as a holy grail by people who run the services. something something freedom something
I've been pretty much idling there since Freenode days (Mainly 'cause I use Alt+1-9 to swap between channels, and staying in a dead channel is easier than trying to re-muscle memory the order, not to mention replacing it with another channel).
Can't really say who owns the channel, but I've not really seen the "don't want official devs there" sentiment whatsoever. (May've been during the while a former member was participating more regularly?)
The channel's "lucky" to get one message per month these days, and whenever someone's come to ask about things, the response tends to be "Go check/ask on the forums."
Also uncertain how this is a holy grail of anything. :P

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Re: Has there been any shift on the Pale Moon Team's stance on the return of a (quasi-)official Pale Moon IRC channel?

Unread post by frostknight » 2024-02-25, 05:37

I thought shoutboxes were on the left or right, or bottom or top, but not the whole page.

Edit: I see its not

Still bigger than i remember.
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