General project discussion.
Use this as a last resort if your topic does not fit in any of the other boards but it still on-topic.
Forum rules
This General Discussion board is meant for topics that are still relevant to Pale Moon, web browsers, browser tech, UXP applications, and related, but don't have a more fitting board available.
Please stick to the relevance of this forum here, which focuses on everything around the Pale Moon project and its user community. "Random" subjects don't belong here, and should be posted in the Off-Topic board.
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Moonchild
- Pale Moon guru
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Unread post
by Moonchild » 2022-11-09, 21:36
Blacklab wrote: ↑2022-11-09, 21:21
a 're-complied' version of the latest stable Firefox release with all telemetry removed and hardening based on, or similar to, adding the 'ArkenFox user/js' to Firefox yourself.
The problem is that they lately have fallen into the trap of "hardening it too much" and effectively reducing usability on the web.
Maybe I should look into rebuilding Firefox as-is and doing it without "hardening" (i.e. privacy-based crippling) of the browser,
leaving that to the user, but removing the Mozilla centralization, "remote preferences" control, and similar Mozilla "services" as an alternative since it seems keeping balance is difficult for most rebuilders.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite
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freedom4all
- Moonbather
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by freedom4all » 2022-11-09, 22:33
Moonchild wrote: ↑2022-11-09, 21:36
The problem is that they lately have fallen into the trap of "hardening it too much" and effectively reducing usability on the web.
Maybe I should look into rebuilding Firefox as-is and doing it without "hardening" (i.e. privacy-based crippling) of the browser,
leaving that to the user, but removing the Mozilla centralization, "remote preferences" control, and similar Mozilla "services" as an alternative since it seems keeping balance is difficult for most rebuilders.
sounds like maybe I should hold off and see where this goes before spending countless more hours on my theme
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Blacklab
- Board Warrior
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by Blacklab » 2022-11-10, 08:04
Moonchild wrote:Maybe I should look into rebuilding Firefox as-is and doing it without "hardening" (i.e. privacy-based crippling) of the browser, leaving that to the user, but removing the Mozilla centralization, "remote preferences" control, and similar Mozilla "services"...
Well... I for one would just love to see an MC 'Wolfbeast' build of latest Firefox
But I'm guessing others wouldn't?
Obvious downside is time cost to main Pale Moon project... and then there's the whole question of where the idea might go longer term?
Maybe a one-off '
experimental only' public beta build based on latest Firefox ESR for a decent lifespan?
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Moonchild
- Pale Moon guru
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Unread post
by Moonchild » 2022-11-10, 08:18
freedom4all wrote: ↑2022-11-09, 22:33
sounds like maybe I should hold off and see where this goes before spending countless more hours on my theme
I don't see why, based on just a musing?
Blacklab wrote: ↑2022-11-10, 08:04
Well... I for one would just love to see an MC 'Wolfbeast' build of latest Firefox
But I'm guessing others wouldn't?
Obvious downside is time cost to main Pale Moon project... and then there's the whole question of where the idea might go longer term?
Well, I have no intention to change my time schedule for it XD. I sincerely doubt it will take much time away from anything if I'm just going to make a few builds that otherwise don't require maintenance aside from a "git pull && mach build" ;P Seriously, rebuilds are easy once the build environment is set up.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite
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moonbat
- Knows the dark side
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by moonbat » 2022-11-10, 09:06
If it could install WE without requiring them to be signed, it would be a win for Firefox using masochists who might want to make web extensions for personal use without having to go the ESR route.
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freedom4all
- Moonbather
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Unread post
by freedom4all » 2022-11-10, 14:45
Moonchild wrote: ↑2022-11-10, 08:18
I don't see why, based on just a musing?
It was hard/impossible to tell based on that short post the ratio of musing to serious consideration
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Nuck-TH
- Project Contributor
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by Nuck-TH » 2022-11-11, 13:19
Sorry for proceeding with offtopic, but i'll trhow my two cents anyway: i'm not really fond of idea of time waste to make yet anothe firefox rebuild(there is already plenty of them), especially since this year, no offence, but UXP development was slow even at addressing non-trivial compatibility issues. So i really don't like that time may be wasted on side-project of questionable importance that don't bring any particular interest and use for Pale Moon users(who are there for the idea of it, not hype and privacy nonsence).
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Moonchild
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Unread post
by Moonchild » 2022-11-11, 14:07
Nuck-TH wrote: ↑2022-11-11, 13:19
i'm not really fond of idea of time waste to make yet anothe firefox rebuild(there is already plenty of them)
There are? Aside from Waterfox and Librewolf, which ones are you referring to?
Nuck-TH wrote: ↑2022-11-11, 13:19
no offence, but UXP development was slow even at addressing non-trivial compatibility issues.
Maybe some of that has to do with the fact that someone tried to kill the project...
You think non-trivial issues can be solved quickly? That's rather topsy-turvy of a view, isn't it?
And if you feel development is (too) slow then by all means help out. I find it strange coming from someone doing an AVX rebuild that you're being negative about a minimal rebuild of Firefox.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite
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gepus
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Unread post
by gepus » 2022-11-11, 22:52
Blacklab wrote: ↑2022-11-09, 21:21
BTW - LibreWolf isn't a Chrome/Blink-based browser... its a 'fork' or perhaps more accurately a 're-complied' version of the latest stable Firefox release with all telemetry removed and hardening based on, or similar to, adding the 'ArkenFox user/js' to Firefox yourself.
LibreWolf is
not a 'fork' of the ESR branch.
An eternal beta (where users are involuntary beta testers) disguised as a final release is not an option for me, not even as a standby alternative.
'ArkenFox user/js' is a very useful template but
not meant to be placed directly into the browser's profile.
Since one can't have the best privacy, security and usability at one go, the user will have to set priorities otherwise one will end up with none of them.
As against phoning home (integrity check or whatever it's called) 'ArkenFox' can't help. One would have to strip it out from the browser's code and neither LibreWolf nor Waterfox does it.
After myriad of tests with Wireshark I managed to make Firefox ESR silent. However I had to do it the sledgehammer way.
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Blacklab
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by Blacklab » 2022-11-11, 23:35
gepus wrote:After myriad of tests with Wireshark I managed to make Firefox ESR silent. However I had to do it the sledgehammer way.
Evidently, this topic's 'horse' has bolted far into the 'off-topic' distance... that said, I expect several readers would be interested to know how you went about making your Firefox ESR silent? A new 'Off-Topic' topic would definitely be needed if you cared to expand on the subject... how you wielded your sledgehammer?
FWIW - I don't think any of the posts above suggest that current LibreWolf is based on Firefox's ESR branch?
However, IIRC, and LibreWolf project history not being my specialist area... and trying not to muddy the waters... I recall reading that an earlier version of what is now called LibreWolf was once-upon-a-time based on Firefox ESR? But no longer.
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Moonchild
- Pale Moon guru
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Unread post
by Moonchild » 2022-11-12, 00:19
Blacklab wrote: ↑2022-11-11, 23:35
Evidently, this topic's 'horse' has bolted far into the 'off-topic' distance...
I've split the siamese horse into two and dropped the offtopic one here
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite
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doofy
- Astronaut
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Unread post
by doofy » 2022-11-12, 01:16
Moonchild wrote: ↑2022-11-09, 21:36
Maybe I should look into rebuilding Firefox as-is and doing it without "hardening" (i.e. privacy-based crippling) of the browser,
leaving that to the user, but removing the Mozilla centralization, "remote preferences" control, and similar Mozilla "services" as an alternative since it seems keeping balance is difficult for most rebuilders.
That could be seriously interesting
I'd give you a small amount of money for it
Currently my secondary browser is ff 85 or so, and it is "hardened" primarily against moz
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THX-1139
- Lunatic
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Unread post
by THX-1139 » 2022-11-12, 01:24
Moonchild, I would say if it's something you have an "itch" or interest in doing, then do it, Dam the torpedoes and full speed ahead and all that.
You likely spend most of your time working on Pale Moon as it is, so I don't see any issue with spending some of your time working on something of interest
for you, screw all the naysayers.
Pale Moon 32.5.0 (64) Win7 pro (64) Intel Core i5-3570 3.4GHz-16 GB DDR3
"The biggest joke on mankind is that computers have started asking humans to prove they're not a robot."
"Man needs difficulties; they are necessary for health." ~Carl Jung
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gepus
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Unread post
by gepus » 2022-11-12, 07:52
Blacklab wrote: ↑2022-11-11, 23:35
I expect several readers would be interested to know how you went about making your Firefox ESR silent? A new 'Off-Topic' topic would definitely be needed if you cared to expand on the subject... how you wielded your sledgehammer?
Well, I won't go into details since the Internet is an open place and I don't want Mozilla to make my sledgehammer useless.
However it is relatively simple:
- track down the connections which you didn't ask for (the time consuming part)
- block those connections (which might change over time) with the sledgehammer of your choice.
Blacklab wrote: ↑2022-11-11, 23:35
FWIW - I don't think any of the posts above suggest that current LibreWolf is based on Firefox's ESR branch?
You're right, none of the posts above did suggest that current LibreWolf is based on Firefox's ESR branch.
My remark concerned only the reason why LibreWolf isn't an option for me.
----------------------------------------------
BTW,
it would be nice to have a fork of Firefox ESR which you could simply tweak to keep silent instead of using the sledgehammer therefore.
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mseliger
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by mseliger » 2022-11-12, 13:53
The homepage "Prvacy-Handbuch" (the website is a german website) offers several configurations for "hardening" a firefox browser both for the release and the esr version. The site offers four configurations:
- minimale user.js
- moderate user.js
- medium strenge user.js (medium strong)
- sehr strenge user.js (strong)
For users, who speak the german the website is a "Fundgrube" (bonanza). The website gives also tips for using e-mail, chat, tor, search engines ...
Homepage:
https://www.privacy-handbuch.de/index.htm
Firefox config:
https://www.privacy-handbuch.de/handbuc ... chnell.htm
Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Greetings
Maria
---
Ich bin ein Westfale, und zwar ein Stockwestfale, nämlich ein Münsterländer – Gott sei Dank! füge ich hinzu ...
Annette von Droste zu Hülshoff, Bei uns zu Lande auf dem Lande
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Moonchild
- Pale Moon guru
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by Moonchild » 2022-11-12, 14:24
mseliger wrote: ↑2022-11-12, 13:53
The homepage "Prvacy-Handbuch" (the website is a german website) offers
Which underlines my point that browsers shouldn't be doing this out of the gate and should leave it up to the user to educate themselves and make their own decisions exactly to what level they want to harden. Which is why I'm disappointed in the direction Librewolf apparently went.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite
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andyprough
- Astronaut
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by andyprough » 2022-11-12, 14:29
Having personally built FF a few hundred times in different configurations for my personal use, I can't imagine this would be a time sink for MC. His knowledge of the inner workings of FF and of building and programming is vastly superior to mine, but even I know how to quickly build hobby versions without telemetry and DRM and so forth.
I'd say this would be an excellent thing if you decide to do it. For those of us looking for a secondary browser for a small handful of sites, this would be an easy and trustworthy drop-in solution.
I think it could use a good name - how about Blood Moon?
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freedom4all
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by freedom4all » 2022-11-13, 02:52
I have mixed feelings. I could see it fragmenting an already niche browser/community. I can imagine newcomers seeing that Pale Moon offers two browsers: one modern, one 'classic', and choosing the modern one just because it's more compatible with modern extensions/themes/etc. Potentially paving the way for classic Pale Moon to fall into obscurity
If you were to make something like this, I think maybe it should be entirely detached from the Pale Moon project, referenced only as a sister project
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Likestofish
- Apollo supporter
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by Likestofish » 2022-11-13, 19:39
Gepus wrote:
"BTW, it would be nice to have a fork of Firefox ESR which you could simply tweak to keep silent instead of using the sledgehammer therefore."
I simply gave up trying to muzzle ESR, simply wasn't worth the time and effort expended. Perversely, LibreWolf with its locked settings led to much the same thing.
Well, if Moonchild is up to pumping out occasional ESR rebuilds that we can then customize to our own personal satisfaction, that could give us a viable alternative to the various flavours of Chrome as a secondary browser. I'm for it.
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Mæstro
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by Mæstro » 2022-11-14, 18:20
Moonchild and colleagues have given years to the UXP and believe it viable. While I can understand the fear of the familiar Pale Moon fading away, I trust that they will not give up on it like this. My secondary browser is Epiphany, and my tertiary is Ungoogled Chromium.
For my part, I am curious to what hardening entails. I have a friend who uses LibreWolf, and when we discuss our browsing experiences, he never mentions broken sites. I have quietly, and likely falsely, assumed that LibreWolf is roughly a Firefox build where
a notorious webmaster’s profile changes are in place by default, perhaps with vestigial telemetry scripting purged from the software, in the same way Pale Moon has been clearing remnants away for years. Of
LibreWolf’s features, only disabling WebGL, WebRTC and breaking localisation stand out to me as making sites harder to use.
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