Alternative Firefox rebuilds

General project discussion.
Use this as a last resort if your topic does not fit in any of the other boards but it still on-topic.
Forum rules
This General Discussion board is meant for topics that are still relevant to Pale Moon, web browsers, browser tech, UXP applications, and related, but don't have a more fitting board available.

Please stick to the relevance of this forum here, which focuses on everything around the Pale Moon project and its user community. "Random" subjects don't belong here, and should be posted in the Off-Topic board.
User avatar
Moonchild
Pale Moon guru
Pale Moon guru
Posts: 35477
Joined: 2011-08-28, 17:27
Location: Motala, SE
Contact:

Re: Alternative Firefox rebuilds

Unread post by Moonchild » 2022-11-14, 20:54

TheRealMaestro wrote:
2022-11-14, 18:20
disabling WebGL, WebRTC and breaking localisation
Those aren't things that should be touted as "features". Which is my whole point about this. They initially didn't do this but fell into the trap of listening to the people who are paranoid about these things and would rather cripple the set of available standards out of the box, than keeping a browser general-use and giving a complete and uncrippled experience.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

User avatar
andyprough
Astronaut
Astronaut
Posts: 701
Joined: 2020-05-31, 04:33

Re: Alternative Firefox rebuilds

Unread post by andyprough » 2022-11-14, 22:00

Moonchild wrote:
2022-11-14, 20:54
Those aren't things that should be touted as "features". Which is my whole point about this. They initially didn't do this but fell into the trap of listening to the people who are paranoid about these things and would rather cripple the set of available standards out of the box, than keeping a browser general-use and giving a complete and uncrippled experience.
Awesome! And please change the default search engine to DDG or pretty much anything that's not Google if possible. I'm sure that goes without saying.

User avatar
gepus
Keeps coming back
Keeps coming back
Posts: 938
Joined: 2017-12-14, 12:59

Re: Any workflow tips for theming? UI inspector? Fast testing?

Unread post by gepus » 2022-11-14, 23:56

Likestofish wrote:
2022-11-13, 19:39
I simply gave up trying to muzzle ESR, simply wasn't worth the time and effort expended. Perversely, LibreWolf with its locked settings led to much the same thing.
Telemetry can be easily disabled through policies. :) The same applies for Studies, Pocket (and other things) or AppUpdate and SystemAddonUpdate if one wants those too disabled. The user doesn't even need to fiddle in about:config therefore.

User avatar
Mæstro
Lunatic
Lunatic
Posts: 463
Joined: 2019-08-13, 00:30
Location: Casumia

Re: Alternative Firefox rebuilds

Unread post by Mæstro » 2022-11-15, 00:27

Moonchild wrote:
2022-11-14, 20:54
Those aren't things that should be touted as "features". Which is my whole point about this.
Aye, I agree strongly on localisation: I resent when Yankee English is treated as some world standard, and LibreWolf’s forcing it on users ‘for privacy’ reminds me of such advice I have heard as using Chrome without extensions ‘for privacy’. I understand the others also. Canvas poisoning for WebGL should make it benign at any rate, if I am not mistaken. (I have that setting enabled in Pale Moon, at least. I also enable WebGL on sites that need it by choice, more as it tolls my old processor than anything else.)
Off-topic:
I have sometimes thought that language headers as fingerprint could easily be poisoned, like the canvas, by leading with obscure or extinct languages the site is sure not to have and changing this header with each page. Thus, to the first page, my HTML header’s preferred languages in order are Tangut, Kaffir, German and British English; to the next, they are Mayan, Eastern Ostiak, German, British English; then Lewchew Japanese, Gaulish, German, British English… Such an extension strikes me as quite promising.
Browser: Pale Moon (Pusser’s repository for Debian)
Operating System: Linux Mint Debian Edition 4 (amd64)
※Receiving Debian 10 LTS security upgrades
Hardware: HP Pavilion DV6-7010 (1400 MHz, 6 GB)
Formerly user TheRealMaestro: æsc is the best letter.

User avatar
moonbat
Knows the dark side
Knows the dark side
Posts: 4942
Joined: 2015-12-09, 15:45
Contact:

Re: Alternative Firefox rebuilds

Unread post by moonbat » 2022-11-15, 02:08

TheRealMaestro wrote:
2022-11-14, 18:20
For my part, I am curious to what hardening entails.
Easy - it is the removal/mitigation of anti privacy features that somehow exist out of the box in the most privacy respecting browser out there 8-)
Totally irrelevant here given that Pale Moon doesn't even have the code or server endpoint for such invasive features to begin with. (Telemetry, analytics, Pocket etc)

I frequent r/privacy and it is amazing how many people unironically root for Arkenfox.js and other 'hardened' configurations while at the same time claiming Firefox is the best for privacy.
"One hosts to look them up, one DNS to find them and in the darkness BIND them."

Image
Linux Mint 21 Xfce x64 on HP i5-5200 laptop, 12 GB RAM.
AutoPageColor|PermissionsPlus|PMPlayer|Pure URL|RecordRewind|TextFX

User avatar
Moonchild
Pale Moon guru
Pale Moon guru
Posts: 35477
Joined: 2011-08-28, 17:27
Location: Motala, SE
Contact:

Re: Alternative Firefox rebuilds

Unread post by Moonchild » 2022-11-15, 11:26

moonbat wrote:
2022-11-15, 02:08
it is the removal/mitigation of anti privacy features that somehow exist out of the box in the most privacy respecting browser out there 8-)
I think you may want to revisit the IT glossary ;-)
Privacy-hardening (which is what we're talking about here) isn't removing/mitigating features that are in themselves anti-privacy, but rather removing/mitigating features that do have real-world use but can be abused for privacy invasion. The anti-privacy features present you are talking about have very little to do with hardening, but rather everything to do with shutting down blatant privacy-violating services and features that aren't of general use. So there are two different classes of things here and the pitfall is that one needs to keep one under the user's control so the web doesn't get crippled.
moonbat wrote:
2022-11-15, 02:08
Totally irrelevant here given that Pale Moon doesn't even have the code
Did you notice the topic title? This isn't about Pale Moon.

Off-topic:
TheRealMaestro wrote:
2022-11-15, 00:27
I have sometimes thought that language headers as fingerprint could easily be poisoned
You have to make sure the languages are real, have some use in real browsing (which might not be), isn't easily filtered out as fake (big issue here) and is randomized each time (otherwise you're just making yourself extra-unique). I don't think that combination has a feasible outcome...
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

User avatar
Mæstro
Lunatic
Lunatic
Posts: 463
Joined: 2019-08-13, 00:30
Location: Casumia

Re: Alternative Firefox rebuilds

Unread post by Mæstro » 2022-11-15, 16:27

Moonchild wrote:
2022-11-15, 11:26
Off-topic:
You have to make sure the languages are real, have some use in real browsing (which might not be), isn't easily filtered out as fake (big issue here) and is randomized each time (otherwise you're just making yourself extra-unique). I don't think that combination has a feasible outcome...
Off-topic:
Hm! Learning why an idea would not work is fun. I was under the (false) impression that one could send anything with an ISO 639 code. Filtering dummy entries ruins the measure, and thinking of defences against this turns this from a question of online privacy in normal browsing (as far as I know, nobody uses fingerprinting without scripts in the wild) into competing to evade a moot enemy who already knows one’s moves.
Browser: Pale Moon (Pusser’s repository for Debian)
Operating System: Linux Mint Debian Edition 4 (amd64)
※Receiving Debian 10 LTS security upgrades
Hardware: HP Pavilion DV6-7010 (1400 MHz, 6 GB)
Formerly user TheRealMaestro: æsc is the best letter.

freedom4all
Moonbather
Moonbather
Posts: 51
Joined: 2022-11-08, 03:11

Re: Alternative Firefox rebuilds

Unread post by freedom4all » 2022-11-15, 21:22

To clarify my position when I said I had mixed feeling (previous page of the thread) ...

I think this is a fine idea. No problems with it. I just think that maybe it should be separated, in much the same way that IceCat, Librewolf, etc are entirely separate projects. Mixing the two projects under the same website/forum/community could potentially create unwanted fragmentation, or loss of interest in classic PM. That is assuming you intend to keep moving forward with classic Pale Moon in parallel. Just some thoughts.

User avatar
Mæstro
Lunatic
Lunatic
Posts: 463
Joined: 2019-08-13, 00:30
Location: Casumia

Re: Alternative Firefox rebuilds

Unread post by Mæstro » 2022-11-16, 02:17

If it assures you, there is precedent: Moonchild had maintained Basilisk as a separate browser from 2017 to 2021. It had its own identity, distinct from Pale Moon’s, throughout. Nobody had worried that it would eclipse Pale Moon. Most of us use Pale Moon as we like features like the traditional UI and XUL extensions, and could not be won over to the wasteland of flat design and WebExtensions that a Firefox rebuild would offer. We are willing, as a survey from last year shows, to tolerate an awkward rendering engine that struggles with badly built sites to keep a browser and extensions we actually like. A Firefox rebuild as Moonchild proposes will appeal to those who do not care about good taste the philosophy of the internet and want a typical 2022 experience that respects their human rights. There have been many erstwhile users here, on the Pale Moon subreddit and elsewhere that complain about sites breaking and have forsaken Pale Moon for this. This would be for them, not us.
Browser: Pale Moon (Pusser’s repository for Debian)
Operating System: Linux Mint Debian Edition 4 (amd64)
※Receiving Debian 10 LTS security upgrades
Hardware: HP Pavilion DV6-7010 (1400 MHz, 6 GB)
Formerly user TheRealMaestro: æsc is the best letter.

User avatar
gepus
Keeps coming back
Keeps coming back
Posts: 938
Joined: 2017-12-14, 12:59

Re: Alternative Firefox rebuilds

Unread post by gepus » 2022-11-16, 10:24

TheRealMaestro wrote:
2022-11-16, 02:17
A Firefox rebuild as Moonchild proposes will appeal to those who do not care about good taste the philosophy of the internet ...
It's not about the philosophy of the internet anymore but simply about the need to access some services/sites.
TheRealMaestro wrote:
2022-11-16, 02:17
This would be for them, not us.
Under the present circumstances a secondary browser is rather a necessity than a thing between "them and us".

User avatar
Mæstro
Lunatic
Lunatic
Posts: 463
Joined: 2019-08-13, 00:30
Location: Casumia

Re: Alternative Firefox rebuilds

Unread post by Mæstro » 2022-11-17, 01:57

When I was writing, I had meant that this Firefox rebuild would appeal as a primary browser to such a crowd. I have mentioned my secondary browsers elsewhere; I know we all use them sometimes. Mine happen not to be Firefox derivatives; I begrudge nobody if theirs is.
On the original topic, does anyone know enough about Waterfox (Current) to say whether it is already close to what Moonchild proposes, or how this would differ? I had used Waterfox Classic in 2019 before moving to Pale Moon, for it had presented itself as a benign Firefox.
Browser: Pale Moon (Pusser’s repository for Debian)
Operating System: Linux Mint Debian Edition 4 (amd64)
※Receiving Debian 10 LTS security upgrades
Hardware: HP Pavilion DV6-7010 (1400 MHz, 6 GB)
Formerly user TheRealMaestro: æsc is the best letter.

Likestofish
Apollo supporter
Apollo supporter
Posts: 39
Joined: 2021-04-25, 14:56

Re: Alternative Firefox rebuilds

Unread post by Likestofish » 2022-11-17, 22:06

TheRealMaestro wrote:
2022-11-17, 01:57
On the original topic, does anyone know enough about Waterfox (Current) to say whether it is already close to what Moonchild proposes, or how this would differ? I had used Waterfox Classic in 2019 before moving to Pale Moon, for it had presented itself as a benign Firefox.
In my rather limited experience with the "Current" generation of Waterfox, it does seems to work better than Waterfox Classic did, but how much of that is hardware-dependent I cannot say. It seems "glitchier" than Firefox in some ways and some websites don't work the same. For those looking for a "quieter" browser with few background connections, Waterfox certainly isn't it. Some months ago I tried out a number of browsers with OpenSnitch running; the results were sobering.

Personally, I'd either wait a little for whatever Moonchild might cook up and try it out, or if someone doesn't want to wait, follow Gepus' advice and in the meantime download and apply Mozilla Group Policy templates to Firefox ESR.

User avatar
andyprough
Astronaut
Astronaut
Posts: 701
Joined: 2020-05-31, 04:33

Re: Alternative Firefox rebuilds

Unread post by andyprough » 2022-11-18, 01:01

Likestofish wrote:
2022-11-17, 22:06
For those looking for a "quieter" browser with few background connections, Waterfox certainly isn't it. Some months ago I tried out a number of browsers with OpenSnitch running; the results were sobering.
There is one new Firefox fork from Japan called Floorp (https://github.com/Floorp-Projects/Floorp). I doubt that it's any quieter or has fewer background connections, because it leaves Google search as the default and seems to have Google safe browsing. I haven't spent enough time looking at it and didn't run it with OpenSnitch, so I'm not going to try to pass judgment. Claims to be more private than Firefox, but of course every browser claims to be private, so that's without meaning.

I'm writing this from Floorp in a vm, so I guess I can say that it can do basic browsing.

Edit: OpenSnitch shows it trying to make 23 connections when starting up, mostly google and mozilla, but also some other stuff

Code: Select all

2022-11-17 21:40:18.491321,unix:/tmp/osui.sock,allow,r3.o.lencr.org  ->  80,tcp,/usr/lib/floorp/floorp,deny-until-restart-simple-usr-lib-floorp-floorp
2022-11-17 21:40:18.238551,unix:/tmp/osui.sock,allow,r3.o.lencr.org  ->  53,udp,/usr/lib/floorp/floorp,deny-until-restart-simple-usr-lib-floorp-floorp
2022-11-17 21:40:18.132504,unix:/tmp/osui.sock,allow,r3.o.lencr.org  ->  80,tcp,/usr/lib/floorp/floorp,deny-until-restart-simple-usr-lib-floorp-floorp
2022-11-17 21:40:18.010833,unix:/tmp/osui.sock,allow,firefox.settings.services.mozilla.com  ->  53,udp,/usr/lib/floorp/floorp,deny-until-restart-simple-usr-lib-floorp-floorp
2022-11-17 21:40:17.866948,unix:/tmp/osui.sock,allow,r3.o.lencr.org  ->  53,udp,/usr/lib/floorp/floorp,deny-until-restart-simple-usr-lib-floorp-floorp
2022-11-17 21:40:17.714780,unix:/tmp/osui.sock,allow,detectportal.firefox.com  ->  80,tcp,/usr/lib/floorp/floorp,deny-until-restart-simple-usr-lib-floorp-floorp
2022-11-17 21:40:17.657256,unix:/tmp/osui.sock,allow,content-signature-2.cdn.mozilla.net  ->  443,tcp,/usr/lib/floorp/floorp,deny-until-restart-simple-usr-lib-floorp-floorp
2022-11-17 21:40:17.521762,unix:/tmp/osui.sock,allow,detectportal.firefox.com  ->  53,udp,/usr/lib/floorp/floorp,deny-until-restart-simple-usr-lib-floorp-floorp
2022-11-17 21:40:17.518788,unix:/tmp/osui.sock,allow,ipv4only.arpa  ->  53,udp,/usr/lib/floorp/floorp,deny-until-restart-simple-usr-lib-floorp-floorp
2022-11-17 21:40:17.518116,unix:/tmp/osui.sock,allow,detectportal.firefox.com  ->  53,udp,/usr/lib/floorp/floorp,deny-until-restart-simple-usr-lib-floorp-floorp
2022-11-17 21:40:17.496511,unix:/tmp/osui.sock,allow,example.org  ->  53,udp,/usr/lib/floorp/floorp,deny-until-restart-simple-usr-lib-floorp-floorp
2022-11-17 21:40:17.464922,unix:/tmp/osui.sock,allow,example.org  ->  53,udp,/usr/lib/floorp/floorp,deny-until-restart-simple-usr-lib-floorp-floorp
2022-11-17 21:40:17.339612,unix:/tmp/osui.sock,allow,content-signature-2.cdn.mozilla.net  ->  53,udp,/usr/lib/floorp/floorp,deny-until-restart-simple-usr-lib-floorp-floorp
2022-11-17 21:40:17.209573,unix:/tmp/osui.sock,allow,contile.services.mozilla.com  ->  443,tcp,/usr/lib/floorp/floorp,deny-until-restart-simple-usr-lib-floorp-floorp
2022-11-17 21:40:17.019058,unix:/tmp/osui.sock,allow,contile.services.mozilla.com  ->  53,udp,/usr/lib/floorp/floorp,deny-until-restart-simple-usr-lib-floorp-floorp
2022-11-17 21:40:16.973656,unix:/tmp/osui.sock,allow,detectportal.firefox.com  ->  80,tcp,/usr/lib/floorp/floorp,deny-until-restart-simple-usr-lib-floorp-floorp
2022-11-17 21:40:16.769838,unix:/tmp/osui.sock,allow,detectportal.firefox.com  ->  53,udp,/usr/lib/floorp/floorp,deny-until-restart-simple-usr-lib-floorp-floorp
2022-11-17 21:40:15.983295,unix:/tmp/osui.sock,allow,t0.gstatic.com  ->  443,udp,/usr/lib/floorp/floorp,deny-until-restart-simple-usr-lib-floorp-floorp
2022-11-17 21:40:15.597861,unix:/tmp/osui.sock,allow,t1.gstatic.com  ->  443,tcp,/usr/lib/floorp/floorp,deny-until-restart-simple-usr-lib-floorp-floorp
2022-11-17 21:40:15.191803,unix:/tmp/osui.sock,allow,ocsp.pki.goog  ->  80,tcp,/usr/lib/floorp/floorp,deny-until-restart-simple-usr-lib-floorp-floorp
2022-11-17 21:40:15.190540,unix:/tmp/osui.sock,allow,ocsp.pki.goog  ->  80,tcp,/usr/lib/floorp/floorp,deny-until-restart-simple-usr-lib-floorp-floorp
2022-11-17 21:40:15.185013,unix:/tmp/osui.sock,allow,ocsp.pki.goog  ->  80,tcp,/usr/lib/floorp/floorp,deny-until-restart-simple-usr-lib-floorp-floorp

User avatar
SlySven
Hobby Astronomer
Hobby Astronomer
Posts: 26
Joined: 2018-07-07, 22:42

Re: Alternative Firefox rebuilds

Unread post by SlySven » 2023-01-09, 13:38

I seem to have joined the conversation too late and have missed some of the saliant details (or is that posts that have been excised/sent elsewhere). However I now find myself looking for a browser to use on FreeBSD and if you don't know that cannot be an up to date PaleMoon (I'm writing this from a self compiled 64-bit 29.4.3 build, the last I could obtain, thereon). As such it is now too far behind to operate GitHub as even PaleFill or GitHub/GitLab Polyfill cannot save the day - so it rather looks like I am going to have to sip from the FireFox poisoned chalice.

As a mere mortal (who does code for a FOSS project with it's Git repositories on GitHub and who wants to keep/get the project operable on FreeBSD) what are the steps (and I don't mean "large ones in the other direction" ;) ) I need/shold take in order to minimise the general spillage of data back to Mozilla HQ and it's allies?

I currently (with PaleMoon on Windows 10, GNU/Linux) particularly use:
  • Adlock Latitude
  • Palefill
  • ηMatrix
  • HTTPS Enforcer
so any recommendations for the same sort of thing - if possible - in the exposed, unprivate, new World that Mozilla is pushing towards would also be helpful.

TBH it seemed to me that the subject being discussed here is directly relateable to my needs which is why I am posting this.

User avatar
random
Apollo supporter
Apollo supporter
Posts: 33
Joined: 2022-07-22, 06:31

Re: Alternative Firefox rebuilds

Unread post by random » 2023-01-09, 14:45

Does Linux emulation in FreeBSD not work with Palemoon?

User avatar
Nigaikaze
Board Warrior
Board Warrior
Posts: 1322
Joined: 2014-02-02, 22:15
Location: Chicagoland

Re: Alternative Firefox rebuilds

Unread post by Nigaikaze » 2023-01-09, 15:16

SlySven wrote:
2023-01-09, 13:38
However I now find myself looking for a browser to use on FreeBSD
Forum user dbsoft has FreeBSD builds of his White Star browser (a Pale Moon variant that he originally built for Macs) available here:

https://dbsoft.org/whitestar.php
Nichi nichi kore ko jitsu = Every day is a good day.

User avatar
Moonchild
Pale Moon guru
Pale Moon guru
Posts: 35477
Joined: 2011-08-28, 17:27
Location: Motala, SE
Contact:

Re: Alternative Firefox rebuilds

Unread post by Moonchild » 2023-01-10, 11:08

I know I haven't been very active regarding this yet. part of it is the fact that Firefox 102 ESR simply doesn't build on VS2022. Release does,though.
As for other operating systems I'd be unlikely to do anything there ;) this would just be a Windows rebuild with custom branding but without all the spying bs when I finally get time to do so.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

User avatar
Al6bus
Lunatic
Lunatic
Posts: 288
Joined: 2015-08-24, 14:55
Location: Lemberg

Re: Alternative Firefox rebuilds

Unread post by Al6bus » 2023-01-10, 11:34

Maybe 91 esr with restored advanced layers and flash support?
Guess, my dreams like above one with 68 esr base+ “old Quantum” interface
is to much “wantings”
:)
Windows 7 Pro x64 - Pale Moon x64
We hope for multiprocessing

User avatar
jobbautista9
Keeps coming back
Keeps coming back
Posts: 782
Joined: 2020-11-03, 06:47
Location: Philippines
Contact:

Re: Alternative Firefox rebuilds

Unread post by jobbautista9 » 2023-01-10, 11:55

That wouldn't be a rebuild.
Image

merry mimas

XUL add-ons developer. You can find a list of add-ons I manage at http://rw.rs/~job/software.html.

Mima avatar by 絵虎. Pixiv post: https://www.pixiv.net/en/artworks/15431817

Image

User avatar
Moonchild
Pale Moon guru
Pale Moon guru
Posts: 35477
Joined: 2011-08-28, 17:27
Location: Motala, SE
Contact:

Re: Alternative Firefox rebuilds

Unread post by Moonchild » 2023-01-10, 13:51

Al6bus wrote:
2023-01-10, 11:34
Maybe 91 esr with restored advanced layers and flash support?
lolno.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

Locked