Paypal controversy and alternatives

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Paypal controversy and alternatives

Unread post by Moonchild » 2022-10-29, 08:13

Since PayPal is in the news recently with some controversy about their imposed fines and people are eager to jump ship at the first sign of trouble, please note that to financially support Pale Moon there are some alternatives:
  • You can use a credit or debit card through the ko-fi page. This will go through Stripe and not PayPal.
  • If you have a Skrill account, you can send money directly. PM me for details.
  • If you are within the EU Euro zone, you can wire transfer, PM me for details.
  • If you are in Sweden, you can use the Swish QR code below to send money.
    Screenshot_20221029-100121.png
    Screenshot_20221029-100121.png (2.93 KiB) Viewed 2556 times
Of course there are still also the challenge coins available if you're interested in getting a physical token of appreciation.
https://ko-fi.com/s/675439ed96
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Re: Paypal controversy and alternatives

Unread post by LuftWafflePilot » 2022-10-29, 09:24

What's up with Paypal other than it being a dinosaur from decade or two ago, that, if I understand correctly, is mostly an american thing for reasons I don't really understand (what's wrong with paying with a credit card?...)?

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Re: Paypal controversy and alternatives

Unread post by moonbat » 2022-10-29, 10:01

LuftWafflePilot wrote:
2022-10-29, 09:24
What's up with Paypal
This.
LuftWafflePilot wrote:
2022-10-29, 09:24
what's wrong with paying with a credit card?
You'll find it's the dinosaurs who, instead of using an intermediary like this, blithely hand out their credit card information directly across various websites online that may play fast and loose with it, or get hacked due to shoddy security.
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Re: Paypal controversy and alternatives

Unread post by athenian200 » 2022-10-29, 10:06

PayPal is pretty much the way a lot of Americans have paid for things online for years now. I don't know how popular it was abroad, but here at least it became a big deal because eBay used to push it as the main payment method, and even now that they've stopped, a lot of people still stick with it.

A lot of younger people use Venmo or Amazon Pay instead, but among the older crowd, a lot of people still rely on PayPal.

As for using a credit card directly... well, that can be expensive and awkward to setup an agreement with the credit card companies directly if you aren't a big operation, that's where the middlemen come in. A lot of people are just more comfortable trusting these companies with their card info than trusting an individual.
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Re: Paypal controversy and alternatives

Unread post by LuftWafflePilot » 2022-10-29, 10:47

I heard Americans "abandoned" cash decades ago and vast majority has been paying with credit cards for everything since forever, which is why I don't understand the Paypal obsession (minus the Ebay thing of past, that makes sense), especially considering you pay extra fees when using Paypal vs just using credit card. It just makes no sense to me. And um, surely everyone in the U.S. has mobile banking app in his phone to transfer money on personal level?

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Re: Paypal controversy and alternatives

Unread post by distantpluto » 2022-10-29, 11:08

I have a PayPal account but was only using it for ebay, who blocked my login twice in quick succession and since the second time I never bothered unblocking it and shop elsewhere. I use my credit card if I'm buying online, always have.

Anyway, I just wanted to point out that Moonchild's coins are beautiful and a steal at the price :thumbup:
Pale Moon and Epyrus on Arch Linux.

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Re: Paypal controversy and alternatives

Unread post by athenian200 » 2022-10-29, 11:33

LuftWafflePilot wrote:
2022-10-29, 10:47
And um, surely everyone in the U.S. has mobile banking app in his phone to transfer money on personal level?
Actually, that is what you might be missing... there really is no easy, consistent way to do bank-to-bank transfers that I know of. Wire transfers are very pricy and are treated as "legacy" infrastructure mostly designed for wiring money between the Fed and banks, and people are wary of them anyway. There is a new thing called Zelle that can work for bank-to-bank transfers and is much cheaper than a wire transfer or PayPal if both you and the recipient of the money have banks that are Zelle members, but it's not something everyone can just use without thinking about it. It sounds like where you live being able to transfer money between banks cheaply is something people take for granted? Not sure where the confusion is coming from.

So basically people tend to use Venmo, PayPal, or Zelle to send money to friends and family. Accepting credit cards directly is something that's usually only done by businesses above a certain size, and a lot of smaller operations have to go through an intermediary to be able to accept credit cards. On top of that, people tend to be more comfortable trusting PayPal with their credit card info than the person they are sending money to, so that's how it ended up like this.
"The Athenians, however, represent the unity of these opposites; in them, mind or spirit has emerged from the Theban subjectivity without losing itself in the Spartan objectivity of ethical life. With the Athenians, the rights of the State and of the individual found as perfect a union as was possible at all at the level of the Greek spirit." -- Hegel's philosophy of Mind

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Re: Paypal controversy and alternatives

Unread post by Moonchild » 2022-10-29, 12:02

Just to clarify, I'm not changing anything and my PayPal usage won't go anywhere for Pale Moon support; just highlighting the alternatives so I won't have to repeat myself too often to people who are upset with PayPal. In fact I'm not even sure if PayPal EU is affected as I haven't really noticed a mention of a policy change to the effect of what people are upset about.
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Re: Paypal controversy and alternatives

Unread post by moonbat » 2022-10-29, 12:11

LuftWafflePilot wrote:
2022-10-29, 10:47
I heard Americans "abandoned" cash decades ago and vast majority has been paying with credit cards for everything since forever
That's in the context of physical in store purchases. Handing out your credit card info for online transactions can be risky when dealing with unknown/lesser known entities, which is where Paypal and similar services come in handy.
athenian200 wrote:
2022-10-29, 11:33
there really is no easy, consistent way to do bank-to-bank transfers that I know of.
Strange to hear..in India we have had bank to bank online transfer for ages using NEFT, and now there is a govt provided interface called Universal Payment Interface. You don't have to give out your bank account number - just a friendly ID you create like an email address.
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Re: Paypal controversy and alternatives

Unread post by Lucio Chiappetti » 2022-10-29, 12:49

I've never used Paypal nor any other sort of intermediary. For online payments, I use a function provided by my bank (who issues my credit card connected to one of the main circuits, the bill is automatically deducted the 15th of the next month) which generates a "virtual credit card number" (this can be a time-limited card with a small ceiling, or a one-shot card), so I never have to give my real credit card number. This works in almost all instances (apparently only the Swiss Railways seem to require a physical number; Amazon might also be tricky with a one-shot card, if you make one order for two or more items they seem to use two or more transactions).
For the rest, I occasionally pay some online orders (wine bag in box) after delivery, via a direct account transfer (SEPA), which also can be done very easily online. This is also for hotel advances. I tend to use the physical debit card (ATM card) for things of relatively limited values bought in a shop, and the physical credit card for (more expensive) items I order but do not collect immediately, or hotel bills (but some hotels still like cheques).
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Re: Paypal controversy and alternatives

Unread post by Kerebron » 2022-10-29, 14:46

LuftWafflePilot wrote:
2022-10-29, 10:47
you pay extra fees when using Paypal
:? I have never paid a single penny more than a price of a product that I bought with PayPal. I've been using PayPal for 15 years or so and I've made hundreds of transactions with it.

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Re: Paypal controversy and alternatives

Unread post by Moonchild » 2022-10-29, 18:52

Kerebron wrote:
2022-10-29, 14:46
LuftWafflePilot wrote:
2022-10-29, 10:47
you pay extra fees when using Paypal
:? I have never paid a single penny more than a price of a product that I bought with PayPal. I've been using PayPal for 15 years or so and I've made hundreds of transactions with it.
If you make a purchase through PayPal (and donations also count as such) the fees are paid by the recipient.
Of note though, every on-line eMoney provider charges fees one way or another. It makes it possible for them to provide the service.
Paying by card also incurs a fee from the card issuer even if you pay directly. Percentages tend to be low, like 2-3%, but it adds up with every party involved.
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Re: Paypal controversy and alternatives

Unread post by athenian200 » 2022-10-29, 19:04

Kerebron wrote:
2022-10-29, 14:46
:? I have never paid a single penny more than a price of a product that I bought with PayPal. I've been using PayPal for 15 years or so and I've made hundreds of transactions with it.
The merchant pays the PayPal fees, not the customer. They have to price in the cost and reputable establishments aren't really supposed to raise or lower their prices based on the payment method the customer chooses, usually (though some shadier places will whisper about a discount if you use cash, or a minimum purchase requirement before they'll take a credit card). In other words, the customer never sees those fees, and the merchant bakes them into the price regardless of payment method.

Though I think PayPal does wave the fees if you send money to friends and family, if you use it for business purposes there are definitely fees, especially once credit cards enter the picture and it's not just PayPal to PayPal.
"The Athenians, however, represent the unity of these opposites; in them, mind or spirit has emerged from the Theban subjectivity without losing itself in the Spartan objectivity of ethical life. With the Athenians, the rights of the State and of the individual found as perfect a union as was possible at all at the level of the Greek spirit." -- Hegel's philosophy of Mind

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Re: Paypal controversy and alternatives

Unread post by Moonchild » 2022-10-29, 22:44

athenian200 wrote:
2022-10-29, 19:04
reputable establishments aren't really supposed to raise or lower their prices based on the payment method the customer chooses, usually (though some shadier places will whisper about a discount if you use cash, or a minimum purchase requirement before they'll take a credit card). In other words, the customer never sees those fees, and the merchant bakes them into the price regardless of payment method.
It's usually actually in the terms of the payment processor that the transaction costs for accepting a specific payment method aren't visible to the customer. Of course a merchant is always free to set a minimum purchase amount before a certain method is accepted (because there's usually a flat processing fee involved and it would all but negate the revenue otherwise) but generally they aren't allowed to make the fee an integral part of the purchase invoice to stay within the terms of the payment processor.
That being said, PayPal makes no secret of the fees a merchant pays, it's all posted on their site. but of course that does mean a merchant will have to add the fees to the base price to not run at a loss. For donations that becomes even more of a problem; e.g. if I get a $1 donation through any eMoney provider I likely end up getting $0.30 or so, the rest being eaten up by fees. Since you generally can't set a minimum donation amount, people might think they are chipping in to the place they donate to, but are in fact giving more money to the payment processor if the amount is particularly small.
athenian200 wrote:
2022-10-29, 19:04
Though I think PayPal does wave the fees if you send money to friends and family,
No they still charge a fee, but it's much smaller (and paid for by the sender in that case)
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Re: Paypal controversy and alternatives

Unread post by frostknight » 2022-10-30, 05:14

@Moonbat

Your link, here:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2022/10/13/paypal-misinformation-policy-sparks-backlash-many-users-delete-app/10486413002/

I think I copied your comment wrong originally, I apologize very much for having to recreate it.

Actually, there is a lot more to it than just even that scandal...

They actively screw around with open source projects, trying to make it hard for them to use their services.

There also used to be an actual website devoted to hating paypal, if my memory is correct, which it is, there is something called paypal sucks

type it into whatever search engine you use, it should show up soon.

but yeah, I finally ditched them recently, for a reason that really was just perfect to finally give me enough reason to not use it for anything ever again.

I used to donate to specific causes online, but as of a specific update, forget which, I couldn't donate $ to euros, etc...

used to be able to.

The moment they did that, I thought...

Perfect! I wanted a reason to ditch these behemoths.

Aka, they are extremely hostile to open source projects.

As a rule of thumb, though, if you aren't UK, US, Canada, you are even more likely to get issues.

Btw, when they did that censorship situation, publications referred to them in ways that make no sense.

Long story short, sides don't matter, its basically, if your business is too open source, or isn't part of UK,US,Canada, expect to be screwed with. Especially if it hits both boxes at the same time.

Sad for the paypal people, that they gave me a very giant reason to ditch them, their loss, not mine :D

As a final thought, I very much, wish that, America could have the same privacy policies as most Europeans, have as a default, if not better.

Btw, yes, I know its a dream that will likely take more than a few decades and for enough people to wake up, etc... I can dream though, can't I?

;)
Last edited by frostknight on 2022-10-30, 05:21, edited 1 time in total.
If it isn't broken, don't fix, unless you are a corporation, because that's the only way you can make money to the point where you can dominate the world in a megalomaniac sociopathic way that no one really wants that also heavily destroys the environment via data collection and wasting water

SMH...

If you believe Jesus is your savior, don't support any fascists, otherwise you are deceiving yourself.

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Re: Paypal controversy and alternatives

Unread post by frostknight » 2022-10-30, 05:19

Moonchild wrote:
2022-10-29, 12:02
Just to clarify, I'm not changing anything and my PayPal usage won't go anywhere for Pale Moon support; just highlighting the alternatives so I won't have to repeat myself too often to people who are upset with PayPal. In fact I'm not even sure if PayPal EU is affected as I haven't really noticed a mention of a policy change to the effect of what people are upset about.
This is very wise, given the issues that exist.

Btw, I don't know if this interests you, nor when it will be stable enough, mature enough, or if it will end up like liberapay.org

But I found this:

https://taler.net/en/index.html

Seems its in demo mode, but I would very much avoid it, till it is alot more trustworthy, for the time being:

https://taler.net/en/features.html

The above, sounds good, but, as of now, its not ready.

I wouldn't blame you though, if you waited a 3+ years to try to use it.

Its more of a "food for thought" type thing.

;)
If it isn't broken, don't fix, unless you are a corporation, because that's the only way you can make money to the point where you can dominate the world in a megalomaniac sociopathic way that no one really wants that also heavily destroys the environment via data collection and wasting water

SMH...

If you believe Jesus is your savior, don't support any fascists, otherwise you are deceiving yourself.

I however, do believe in him. Don't let your pride blind you, lest you wish to be greatly humbled unexpectedly, as this will hurt on an agonizing scale

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Re: Paypal controversy and alternatives

Unread post by Moonchild » 2022-10-30, 06:02

Just because it's rubber-stamped with GNU doesn't mean it's open (the software might be, but the service likely is not)
It completely avoids the question who operates the exchange where all the money is being stored (wallets merely represent an administrative figure and have no guarantee of stored value). This pivots entirely on the trustworthiness of the exchange which holds all funds in escrow. There being 0 information about who operates this so far is not a good start to gain confidence.
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Re: Paypal controversy and alternatives

Unread post by frostknight » 2022-10-30, 19:24

Moonchild wrote:
2022-10-30, 06:02
Just because it's rubber-stamped with GNU doesn't mean it's open (the software might be, but the service likely is not)
It completely avoids the question who operates the exchange where all the money is being stored (wallets merely represent an administrative figure and have no guarantee of stored value). This pivots entirely on the trustworthiness of the exchange which holds all funds in escrow. There being 0 information about who operates this so far is not a good start to gain confidence.
Off-topic:
Yes, hence why I don't think I would trust it now anyhow.

Also, I agree that anything being rubber-stamped, with GNU is indeed not a guarantee. I realize this, hence why I avoid what might be considered GNU's favorite distro, Trisquel. Aka, Stallman tends to use Trisquel alot, despite it just being Ubuntu with a shiny new coat of color. I say that due to Trisquel just being, Ubuntu with the non-free parts removed. Also, GNU tends to care more about their weird idea of freedom then what should be their goal, privacy/security.

That was why GNU was originally born aka... however, they don't seem to have a problem with any of redhat's overengineered software, as long as it is all freely licensed and doesn't drag in proprietary bits.

Point being, I don't think they go far enough on certain things.

I use Hyperbola, due to it being an actual attempt at actual change.
Although, ever since 0.4 was being worked, on, realized it was a very radical approach and an awesome one at that, hence my interest.
This all being said, waiting is definitely wise before you even think about using it.

If I had to guess, its in alpha state and they still have alot to figure out on the software end, let alone the problems you mentioned.

Btw, they are indeed legitimate concerns, just making a suggestion, for whenever it actually makes sense.
If it isn't broken, don't fix, unless you are a corporation, because that's the only way you can make money to the point where you can dominate the world in a megalomaniac sociopathic way that no one really wants that also heavily destroys the environment via data collection and wasting water

SMH...

If you believe Jesus is your savior, don't support any fascists, otherwise you are deceiving yourself.

I however, do believe in him. Don't let your pride blind you, lest you wish to be greatly humbled unexpectedly, as this will hurt on an agonizing scale

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Re: Paypal controversy and alternatives

Unread post by LuftWafflePilot » 2022-10-31, 14:00

athenian200 wrote:
2022-10-29, 11:33
LuftWafflePilot wrote:
2022-10-29, 10:47
And um, surely everyone in the U.S. has mobile banking app in his phone to transfer money on personal level?
Actually, that is what you might be missing... there really is no easy, consistent way to do bank-to-bank transfers that I know of. Wire transfers are very pricy and are treated as "legacy" infrastructure mostly designed for wiring money between the Fed and banks, and people are wary of them anyway. There is a new thing called Zelle that can work for bank-to-bank transfers and is much cheaper than a wire transfer or PayPal if both you and the recipient of the money have banks that are Zelle members, but it's not something everyone can just use without thinking about it. It sounds like where you live being able to transfer money between banks cheaply is something people take for granted? Not sure where the confusion is coming from.

So basically people tend to use Venmo, PayPal, or Zelle to send money to friends and family. Accepting credit cards directly is something that's usually only done by businesses above a certain size, and a lot of smaller operations have to go through an intermediary to be able to accept credit cards. On top of that, people tend to be more comfortable trusting PayPal with their credit card info than the person they are sending money to, so that's how it ended up like this.
Wait what?
You don't have at least somewhat similar system to what we have in Europe?
You log in to your bank's app or web interface with the intent to send money to either another individual or a company (when you're paying for an order). You type in the other party's bank account number with bank code, optionally type in what's called "variable symbol", click on send, and the money is instantly transferred (with the exception of weekends).
If you are sending money to a foreign country, you use IBAN code instead of account number.
And this doesn't cost anything (maybe, just maybe there is a tiny bit of a fee when you're paying internationally), because why should it? Unlike when you're paying with a card and you get charged a percentage of the amount.

edit: We've had this system for 20 years or most likely more, and I'm talking about a post-communist country in the east Central Europe.

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Re: Paypal controversy and alternatives

Unread post by Moonchild » 2022-10-31, 14:22

They have wire transfers but those are silly expensive, AFAIK.
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