Wiki sites to remove Pale Moon screenshots
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Please stick to the relevance of this forum here, which focuses on everything around the Pale Moon project and its user community. "Random" subjects don't belong here, and should be posted in the Off-Topic board.
This General Discussion board is meant for topics that are still relevant to Pale Moon, web browsers, browser tech, UXP applications, and related, but don't have a more fitting board available.
Please stick to the relevance of this forum here, which focuses on everything around the Pale Moon project and its user community. "Random" subjects don't belong here, and should be posted in the Off-Topic board.
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- Apollo supporter
- Posts: 41
- Joined: 2021-08-19, 10:05
Re: Wiki sites to remove Pale Moon screenshots
What a bizarre situation.
It's good that the update solves it, but ridiculous that it is deemed necessary by them for obvious fair-use (and similar legal equivalents) screenshots in the first place.
It's good that the update solves it, but ridiculous that it is deemed necessary by them for obvious fair-use (and similar legal equivalents) screenshots in the first place.
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- Contributing developer
- Posts: 1537
- Joined: 2018-10-28, 19:56
- Location: Georgia
Re: Wiki sites to remove Pale Moon screenshots
It really is.
Just read through this policy, it will disgust anyone from a country where the matter of Fair Use is as clear on this matter as the US:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Fair_use
I mean, in the United States at least, we draft most of our licenses/legal agreements with the assumption of Fair Use principles in mind, and in my view rightly so. Willfully choosing to interpret every contract and legal issue as if those concepts didn't exist (unless we explicitly state within the agreement HOW we intended Fair Use to impact the nature of the agreement when we drafted it, I guess), and applying Debian Linux-style purity standards is pretty much what they do over there. It's just another place for the FOSS community to engage in Stallman-esque intellectual circlejerks about what "freedom" means, and exercise power over people.
Their reasoning is that the principle of Fair Use "isn't universal." Well, perhaps not, but that hardly justifies ignoring the assumptions that people writing contracts make in countries where it does apply. Of course in practice, it just becomes their own excuse for their own twisted censorship of everything that isn't "free" enough. I bet that site attracts all the most toxic people.
I bet I know why they didn't impose this policy on English Wikipedia... they knew that if they tried people would get mad and potentially create forks of Wikipedia and rebel against such an unreasonable standard. But instead it's now imposed through the "back door" on other language versions of Wikipedia that those who speak English usually aren't watching and won't know to be outraged about.
Sorry if that comes off as a bit of a rant, it's just... the more I read their policies, the more I do not like how they operate and find it upsetting that they have a monopoly over images on some versions of Wikipedia.
"The Athenians, however, represent the unity of these opposites; in them, mind or spirit has emerged from the Theban subjectivity without losing itself in the Spartan objectivity of ethical life. With the Athenians, the rights of the State and of the individual found as perfect a union as was possible at all at the level of the Greek spirit." -- Hegel's philosophy of Mind
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- Fanatic
- Posts: 220
- Joined: 2018-02-23, 06:51
Re: Wiki sites to remove Pale Moon screenshots
I don't know how any of you can get edits approved on Wikimedia or Wikipedia when their rules prevent anyone from contributing/editing content if they have a vested interest, regardless of how remote that may be. That rule is so open ended that because I have an interest in the Internet and that I know much about how it works, that I cannot contribute that knowledge without citing references published by people who know a lot less.
What sparked this comment was reading that MoonChild said that "being the copyright owner and saying that use of a screen shot is ok, then it should be ok". I don't think that their moderators think like that and the suggestion that MoonChild may have edited anything about Pale Moon will set off alarm bells with the nutters that I have dealt with in the past.
While Wikipedia could be a useful source of information, I no longer trust it after encountering the mentality of its moderators and seeing that it has become a collection of misinformation for topics of my own expertise.
What sparked this comment was reading that MoonChild said that "being the copyright owner and saying that use of a screen shot is ok, then it should be ok". I don't think that their moderators think like that and the suggestion that MoonChild may have edited anything about Pale Moon will set off alarm bells with the nutters that I have dealt with in the past.
While Wikipedia could be a useful source of information, I no longer trust it after encountering the mentality of its moderators and seeing that it has become a collection of misinformation for topics of my own expertise.
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- Keeps coming back
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- Joined: 2020-11-03, 06:47
- Location: Philippines
Re: Wiki sites to remove Pale Moon screenshots
I'm also surprised that nobody in Wikipedia AFAIK complained that Moonchild may be violating the "conflict of interest" policy. Maybe the fact that Pale Moon is an open-source project helps I guess, since it's usually hard to see a COI for such cases, and Wikipedia seems to just be biased against purely proprietary software when it comes to COI.
It wouldn't be a big deal though if they noticed and tell Moonchild to just put his suggestions on the talk page for every major change he wants to do to the article (and I do see some major changes by Moonchild from time-to-time). There will always be a volunteer among us who will put such edits. I wouldn't be violating COI because I'm not really part of the Pale Moon project. I may be a biased volunteer, yes, but I do try my best to adhere to Wikipedia's "neutral point of view" policy.
It wouldn't be a big deal though if they noticed and tell Moonchild to just put his suggestions on the talk page for every major change he wants to do to the article (and I do see some major changes by Moonchild from time-to-time). There will always be a volunteer among us who will put such edits. I wouldn't be violating COI because I'm not really part of the Pale Moon project. I may be a biased volunteer, yes, but I do try my best to adhere to Wikipedia's "neutral point of view" policy.
merry mimas
XUL add-ons developer. You can find a list of add-ons I manage at http://rw.rs/~job/software.html.
Mima avatar by 絵虎. Pixiv post: https://www.pixiv.net/en/artworks/15431817
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- Pale Moon guru
- Posts: 35648
- Joined: 2011-08-28, 17:27
- Location: Motala, SE
Re: Wiki sites to remove Pale Moon screenshots
That is exactly what I have done.jobbautista9 wrote: ↑2022-08-11, 07:26It wouldn't be a big deal though if they noticed and tell Moonchild to just put his suggestions on the talk page for every major change he wants to do to the article (and I do see some major changes by Moonchild from time-to-time). There will always be a volunteer among us who will put such edits. I wouldn't be violating COI because I'm not really part of the Pale Moon project.
While I wrote the initial page (after no less than 6 reviews and rewrites finally approved, way back when) most of the edits that were substantial have always been community-contributed, often even unprompted by me. They pretty much permanently marked it as "needing improvement" as well despite approving it, which has always been annoying.
So there is no conflict of interest here. I just want the page to be accurate - it's pretty long-standing of an article as it is.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite
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- Keeps coming back
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- Joined: 2020-11-03, 06:47
- Location: Philippines
Re: Wiki sites to remove Pale Moon screenshots
It took four months, but an admin has now closed the deletion discussion and kept the screenshot. Hooray! https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.p ... =714012579
merry mimas
XUL add-ons developer. You can find a list of add-ons I manage at http://rw.rs/~job/software.html.
Mima avatar by 絵虎. Pixiv post: https://www.pixiv.net/en/artworks/15431817
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- Pale Moon guru
- Posts: 35648
- Joined: 2011-08-28, 17:27
- Location: Motala, SE
Re: Wiki sites to remove Pale Moon screenshots
Glad to see Adamant1 was corked.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite
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- Moonbather
- Posts: 51
- Joined: 2022-11-08, 03:11
Re: Wiki sites to remove Pale Moon screenshots
Thanks for your efforts on this, the wiki page looks goodfuzzlesnuz wrote: ↑2022-08-06, 23:48Earlier this year, I took the liberty of cleaning up the Pale Moon article on Wikipedia and raising it to something of a higher quality, since Pale Moon really deserves better.