r/firefox is spreading disinformation about Pale Moon

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Re: r/firefox is spreading disinformation about Pale Moon

Unread post by Tharthan » 2022-12-09, 03:45

Off-topic:
jez9999 wrote:
2022-12-05, 10:10
it's a dreadful site. I hope it dies.
I would rather Twitter and Facebook go away first instead of Reddit.

If Reddit's design and style were to be the reference point for any new, ambitious community platform designers, I at least wouldn't feel like I need to pull my hair out and scream.

Just look at how much sewage Twitter and Facebook have injected into the Internet ecosystem. "Hashtags," for instance. Even websites like YouTube and DeviantArt are using the blasted things now. And you even see them physically printed on signs offline, nowadays.
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Re: r/firefox is spreading disinformation about Pale Moon

Unread post by Moonchild » 2022-12-09, 16:22

Off-topic:
jez9999 wrote:
2022-12-05, 10:10
It's not a lack of control, it's extreme censorious liberals controlling everything.
dbsoft wrote:
2022-12-08, 22:15
refrain from bringing clearly incorrect political bias into things?
I don't even care if it's correct or incorrect, gaslighting or otherwise. Please check political opinion at the door, and avoid labelling things in discussion topics with being politically driven or related, thanks. Fine if you think that, just don't make polarizing posts in that field and keep it to yourself. Not the right place for this.
Off-topic:
Tharthan wrote:
2022-12-09, 03:45
I would rather Twitter and Facebook go away first instead of Reddit.
Both of those are on a slippery slope at the moment, as far as I understood. So you may get your wish.
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Re: r/firefox is spreading disinformation about Pale Moon

Unread post by dbsoft » 2022-12-10, 08:03

I actually find Facebook slightly useful in keeping contact with family members, but I find very little value in reddit or twitter personally.

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Re: r/firefox is spreading disinformation about Pale Moon

Unread post by pale guru » 2023-02-10, 21:08

Before I open a new thread about this [b]Site Isolation[/b] thingy: Is this more a Public Relation campaign and less a security concern if someone can program decent OOP (with the basic security rules in mind)? So to say, Pale Moon doesn't need it?

Looks like it has a bit (too much) overhead… chromium.org/Home/chromium-security/site-isolation/
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Re: r/firefox is spreading disinformation about Pale Moon

Unread post by jobbautista9 » 2023-02-11, 02:13

See: viewtopic.php?t=17442

Site Isolation/FIssion is essentially e10s/multiprocess taken to its extreme.
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Re: r/firefox is spreading disinformation about Pale Moon

Unread post by jez9999 » 2023-02-11, 11:32

I read the post, but, well, Chromium-based browsers don't feel sluggish at all. Whatever they're doing to mitigate the "enormous overhead", it seems to be working.

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Re: r/firefox is spreading disinformation about Pale Moon

Unread post by andyprough » 2023-02-11, 12:51

jez9999 wrote:
2023-02-11, 11:32
I read the post, but, well, Chromium-based browsers don't feel sluggish at all. Whatever they're doing to mitigate the "enormous overhead", it seems to be working.
In my non-professional testing, it appears that chromium-based browsers fetch and pre-fetch (or "cache" and "pre-cache") enormous quantities of data and use basically unlimited amounts of ram and disk space to accomplish that "zippy" feel. Pale Moon, on the other hand, uses a bit more cpu and far less ram. You could probably configure Pale Moon to do the same thing, but then you would lose many of Pale Moon's advantages.

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Re: r/firefox is spreading disinformation about Pale Moon

Unread post by Eduardo Lucas » 2023-02-11, 17:59

andyprough wrote:
2023-02-11, 12:51
jez9999 wrote:
2023-02-11, 11:32
I read the post, but, well, Chromium-based browsers don't feel sluggish at all. Whatever they're doing to mitigate the "enormous overhead", it seems to be working.
In my non-professional testing, it appears that chromium-based browsers fetch and pre-fetch (or "cache" and "pre-cache") enormous quantities of data and use basically unlimited amounts of ram and disk space to accomplish that "zippy" feel. Pale Moon, on the other hand, uses a bit more cpu and far less ram. You could probably configure Pale Moon to do the same thing, but then you would lose many of Pale Moon's advantages.
I see this effect in terms of older computers, but in newer computers (> first gen ryzen), it`s quite the opposite effect, as chromium will attempt to use enormous amounts of leverage and force clock bursts. Pale Moon will be way more cautious. Anyways i see both doing close performance in recent versions, but Pale Moon is superior in multithreading and does not force feed CPU cores by spawning multiple processes. Depending on how many tabs you open, you will see pale moon speeding up while chromium will speed up but with a huge performance penalty or by rising wattages.

Anyways, i don`t see Pale Moon as sluggish in 2023. It definitively had problems in early 2020 or late 2019, but this is past. The fact chromium forces performance by using multiple processes indiscriminately does not mean Pale Moon is slow. I think AVX2 builds (the importance of optimizations by instructions and/or accelerators) are about as fast as firefox and chromium.

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Re: r/firefox is spreading disinformation about Pale Moon

Unread post by jez9999 » 2023-02-11, 19:00

So all you need is a supercomputer and Pale Moon performs well? :lol:

On my (slightly but not terribly old) Core i5 2500 with 16GB RAM, I frequently get pages that hand the PM interface for seconds, which obviously doesn't happen in Chrome.

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Re: r/firefox is spreading disinformation about Pale Moon

Unread post by andyprough » 2023-02-11, 19:41

jez9999 wrote:
2023-02-11, 19:00
So all you need is a supercomputer and Pale Moon performs well? :lol:
Ryzen is 6 years old now - not exactly my definition of 'supercomputer', but whatever floats your boat. :coffee:

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Re: r/firefox is spreading disinformation about Pale Moon

Unread post by Eduardo Lucas » 2023-02-11, 20:01

jez9999 wrote:
2023-02-11, 19:00
So all you need is a supercomputer and Pale Moon performs well? :lol:

On my (slightly but not terribly old) Core i5 2500 with 16GB RAM, I frequently get pages that hand the PM interface for seconds, which obviously doesn't happen in Chrome.
I`m currently running ryzen 5 3500u on Void linux with CDE/Motif as desktop environment and 6gb of ram. It uses on average something like 7-15w of power and throttles in heavy loads, but even with these limitations, pale moon avx2 build is as fast as ungoogled chromium (which is btw faster than normal chromium or chrome/edge/opera). A ultrathin laptop (ideapad) running in this wattage with a zen+ microarchitecture ryzen chip is VERY far from a high end desktop and not even near a high end desktop from its year.

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Re: r/firefox is spreading disinformation about Pale Moon

Unread post by Moonchild » 2023-02-11, 21:30

jez9999 wrote:
2023-02-11, 19:00
On my (slightly but not terribly old) Core i5 2500
A second gen Core from 2011? I'd certainly call that "more than slightly old". A lot has changed in the last 12 years.
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Re: r/firefox is spreading disinformation about Pale Moon

Unread post by jez9999 » 2023-02-11, 21:50

Bit of a shame for the environment that we're expected to bin our machines every 5 years, isn't it? I mean, even CPUs from 10 years ago are pretty darn beefy when you compare them with the DOS days when I grew up.

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Re: r/firefox is spreading disinformation about Pale Moon

Unread post by vannilla » 2023-02-11, 22:51

jez9999 wrote:
2023-02-11, 21:50
Bit of a shame for the environment that we're expected to bin our machines every 5 years, isn't it? I mean, even CPUs from 10 years ago are pretty darn beefy when you compare them with the DOS days when I grew up.
It has been said so many times it's basically a meme, but you have to thank the overabundance of scripts to make a web browser unable to run on a 10 years old machine (ignoring incompatibilities between operating systems; only talking about resource usage here).

Consider that to read an article on Medium, a platform for written content and the occasional companion picture, requires megabytes of scripts.
Why do you even need scripts to display text and pictures?
There's no way so much code is not going to use few resources.

If websites weren't abusing the increasing hardware performances like this, e10s et al. wouldn't even exist.
(Reminder that those technologies have not increased security at all and were only ever used to make browsers seem "snappy" while the content process is swamped by poorly-written code.)

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Re: r/firefox is spreading disinformation about Pale Moon

Unread post by jez9999 » 2023-02-11, 23:06

Oh yeah I largely agree. YouTube is incredibly inefficient, it boggles my mind anything can render it. I have to chuckle at the fact that accessibility used to be something championed on the web. You have large sites now using heavyweight frameworks to render content on-demand as you scroll, with virtually no semantics in the DOM, and which sometimes fails to render properly even in their own browser. Guess that's a lack of real competition for you.

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Re: r/firefox is spreading disinformation about Pale Moon

Unread post by andyprough » 2023-02-11, 23:13

Moonchild wrote:
2023-02-11, 21:30
jez9999 wrote:
2023-02-11, 19:00
On my (slightly but not terribly old) Core i5 2500
A second gen Core from 2011? I'd certainly call that "more than slightly old". A lot has changed in the last 12 years.
I've got one. Runs sweet with an ssd and Pale Moon on antiX or MX Linux. And you can get an ssd for about $30. Maybe less now. I've used it for years for my classroom presentations and videos and when I give trainings on online services. I used to compile and package the Liquorix kernels for MX with it in about 2020, and that was a fairly serious bit of muscular CPU work. New kernels were coming out almost weekly.

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Re: r/firefox is spreading disinformation about Pale Moon

Unread post by Moonchild » 2023-02-11, 23:24

vannilla wrote:
2023-02-11, 22:51
Consider that to read an article on Medium, a platform for written content and the occasional companion picture, requires megabytes of scripts.
Why do you even need scripts to display text and pictures?
You literally don't. You can, but that's the old adage "Just because you can doesn't mean you should".
With HTML and CSS3, you literally don't need any JS to display rich content like Medium publishes in any shape or form, including in fully-responsive layouts.

Also, a lot of people don't seem to understand how much code several megabytes of JS is, especially if those megabytes of code are minified (as they normally are).
If you take a reasonable average of 40 lines of code for 1kB of file size (non-minified), then 1 MB is ~41,000 lines of code. That's almost 900! pages of a standard layout book size. Of just code. And that's just 1 MB. These sites are often >10 MB of scripting, minified. Then keep in mind that all of that scripting needs to be parsed, interpreted and compiled. It is totally bananas if you understand the scope of what's going on.
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Re: r/firefox is spreading disinformation about Pale Moon

Unread post by Mæstro » 2023-02-12, 03:56

In my favourite talk on this subject, Medium appears at one point to fill 900 kB with only one sentence of content by sheer humbug.
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Re: r/firefox is spreading disinformation about Pale Moon

Unread post by Eduardo Lucas » 2023-02-12, 06:19

Moonchild wrote:
2023-02-11, 21:30
jez9999 wrote:
2023-02-11, 19:00
On my (slightly but not terribly old) Core i5 2500
A second gen Core from 2011? I'd certainly call that "more than slightly old". A lot has changed in the last 12 years.
The raw amount of power a U-Class ryzen laptop (depending on the microarchitecture) has is better than many of the workstations of the late 00s. Things really changed a lot. Its a hellload of power and i was shocked when i first used this laptop. I do not even feel impressed its surviving year after year without performance losses, basic use in the software/OS/GUI setup i wrote about earlier is almost fanless because it doesnt`t need to turn on all the time (also to mention its summer in Brazil)

Meanwhile, i used a Intel Core laptop from 2015 for some time years ago. Its a difference between night and day. It was way less faster, and it had big fans and cooling + a hungrier TDP. This feels like a very fast desktop. That felt like a laptop. This turns into a jet when its fans spin to compress loads of huge files, such as hundreds or thousands of large FLAC`s or WAV`s. but it finishes ridiculously fast. That would just lock up. So i think there is a massive difference in daily home usability as well.

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Re: r/firefox is spreading disinformation about Pale Moon

Unread post by Moonchild » 2023-02-12, 08:52

Veering a bit off-topic here but eh it's all good, right?
Mæstro wrote:
2023-02-12, 03:56
In my favourite talk on this subject, Medium appears at one point to fill 900 kB with only one sentence of content by sheer humbug.
That talk has an excellent paragraph on false metrics, in particular:
Google has a popular one called SpeedIndex. (You know it's from Google because they casually throw an integral sign into the definition.)

SpeedIndex is based on the idea that what counts is how fast the visible part of the website renders. It doesn't matter what's happening elsewhere on the page. It doesn't matter if the network is saturated and your phone is hot to the touch. It doesn't matter if the battery is visibly draining. Everything is OK as long as the part of the site in the viewport appears to pop into view right away.

Of course, it doesn’t matter how fast the site appears to load if the first thing the completed page does is serve an interstitial ad. Or, if like many mobile users, you start scrolling immediately and catch the 'unoptimized' part of the page with its pants down.
It should be noted that "dynamic module imports" were created precisely to cater to this. It effectively does nothing to really improve page loads, and in fact does the opposite by barfing out a non-functional piece of web page while gobbling up your resources to frantically load the rest of it (through js instead of a browser's native transports and load prioritization) while giving the user a morsel of the page that's actually not done loading but pretends it is.
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