Is XUL just outdated?
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This General Discussion board is meant for topics that are still relevant to Pale Moon, web browsers, browser tech, UXP applications, and related, but don't have a more fitting board available.
Please stick to the relevance of this forum here, which focuses on everything around the Pale Moon project and its user community. "Random" subjects don't belong here, and should be posted in the Off-Topic board.
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- Banned user
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Is XUL just outdated?
Or you need to update it? After digging up old posts on this forum praising the good old technology and compared the UXP with Electron (our Chromium based counterpart), I decided to actually learn more about it. I read the documents on RealityRipple's site. What I find out? XUL is not anyway comparable to HTML5! XUL has very few widgets available compared to HTML5. Even on the document acknowledge this and said we could mix HTML inside XUL for more widgets but not without caveats. Maybe the decision of the Thunderbird guys to change all .xul to .xhtml is a right decision. Either update XUL to add more widgets and abilities, or just leave to move to HTML5. I don't think there will be any problems with a HTML5 based XUL. After all XUL is just a markup language!
p/s: I'm telling XUL as a markup language not the technology. Please make it clear.
p/s: I'm telling XUL as a markup language not the technology. Please make it clear.
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- Contributing developer
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Re: Is XUL just outdated?
Well, the problem with HTML5 is that it's mostly designed around mobile and the stuff generated in it usually looks terrible on desktop. It isn't particularly good at generating native desktop styling. Extending XUL to do more things is on the roadmap, but we have to spend a lot of time working on the browser engine, plus we are very concerned with trying not to break the existing extensions that people rely on.
Your reasoning isn't necessarily unsound, but this project mostly exists to preserve XUL. If you want something that uses HTML5 and has a more modern design, that already exists. I'm not sure why you want to push this project in the same direction already taken by everything else. I don't think most of the people working on this are very interested in that idea.
Your reasoning isn't necessarily unsound, but this project mostly exists to preserve XUL. If you want something that uses HTML5 and has a more modern design, that already exists. I'm not sure why you want to push this project in the same direction already taken by everything else. I don't think most of the people working on this are very interested in that idea.
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Re: Is XUL just outdated?
Updating XUL markup language to be more competence is not conflicting with preserve old XUL and improving the engine. What I propose is importing widgets from HTML5 so when writing XUL you no longer have to embed HTML elements into it. The engine is in bad shape but good enough to power the rendering of XUL. Updating to allow the users able to make beautiful appearance GUI is another way to impress more people to contribute. What you said about HTML5 being mobile first is wrong and the reality is different. HTML5 based app looks good. XUL based app lacking of widgets and looks primitive. From what you said I know you have not revisited any Electron based app recently. Your knowledge is of the distant past and well outdated. The fact is HTML5 looks good on any platforms.athenian200 wrote: ↑2022-06-19, 03:47Well, the problem with HTML5 is that it's mostly designed around mobile and the stuff generated in it usually looks terrible on desktop. It isn't particularly good at generating native desktop styling. Extending XUL to do more things is on the roadmap, but we have to spend a lot of time working on the browser engine, plus we are very concerned with trying not to break the existing extensions that people rely on.
Your reasoning isn't necessarily unsound, but this project mostly exists to preserve XUL. If you want something that uses HTML5 and has a more modern design, that already exists. I'm not sure why you want to push this project in the same direction already taken by everything else. I don't think most of the people working on this are very interested in that idea.
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- Contributing developer
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Re: Is XUL just outdated?
I use plenty of Electron-based apps, grudgingly of course. I think they look terrible and seem badly designed. They always look much worse than the old Win32 counterparts and have this ugly mobile-first design. This opinion isn't based on the past, I still see these apps and curse at their interfaces on a regular basis. If you think it looks good, then good for you, you'll be happy with what's popular.nguyen9173 wrote: ↑2022-06-19, 08:03HTML5 based app looks good. XUL based app lacking of widgets and looks primitive. From what you said I know you have not revisited any Electron based app recently. Your knowledge is of the distant past and well outdated. The fact is HTML5 looks good on any platforms.
I'm not ruling out adding widgets to XUL at some point, but talking as if HTML5 is just universally better for everything is silly. It seems like you don't really get what this project is about...
"The Athenians, however, represent the unity of these opposites; in them, mind or spirit has emerged from the Theban subjectivity without losing itself in the Spartan objectivity of ethical life. With the Athenians, the rights of the State and of the individual found as perfect a union as was possible at all at the level of the Greek spirit." -- Hegel's philosophy of Mind
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- Banned user
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Re: Is XUL just outdated?
I want more widgets. That's it. You could use HTML5 as the reference to add the missing widgets. That's my whole point. Don't want argue with you any further.athenian200 wrote: ↑2022-06-19, 08:10I use plenty of Electron-based apps, grudgingly of course. I think they look terrible and seem badly designed. They always look much worse than the old Win32 counterparts and have this ugly mobile-first design. This opinion isn't based on the past, I still see these apps and curse at their interfaces on a regular basis. If you think it looks good, then good for you, you'll be happy with what's popular.nguyen9173 wrote: ↑2022-06-19, 08:03HTML5 based app looks good. XUL based app lacking of widgets and looks primitive. From what you said I know you have not revisited any Electron based app recently. Your knowledge is of the distant past and well outdated. The fact is HTML5 looks good on any platforms.
I'm not ruling out adding widgets to XUL at some point, but talking as if HTML5 is just universally better for everything is silly. It seems like you don't really get what this project is about...
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- Project Contributor
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Re: Is XUL just outdated?
Well, you can use XBL to make your own widgets.
I think making only essential widgets was idea akin to xul based applications themselves - provide some base level, and if anyone needs more complicated/different/custom stuff - they can extend it as they please/need.
I think making only essential widgets was idea akin to xul based applications themselves - provide some base level, and if anyone needs more complicated/different/custom stuff - they can extend it as they please/need.
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Re: Is XUL just outdated?
If you see a missing widget that would be very useful for desktop applications to use and would be beneficial for the platform as a whole, feel free to open a new issue and file a pull request for it.
merry mimas
XUL add-ons developer. You can find a list of add-ons I manage at http://rw.rs/~job/software.html.
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Re: Is XUL just outdated?
The difference between XUL and HTML is that the latter is designed to lay out content, while the former is designed around user interfaces.
For example, a video element is content and not an interface: that would be the play/pause button in the video player for example. In this case having to use HTML to show a video is the right design choice.
For example, a video element is content and not an interface: that would be the play/pause button in the video player for example. In this case having to use HTML to show a video is the right design choice.
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Re: Is XUL just outdated?
What if I need right in the ui the widgets only HTML5 has? XUL really has not much widgets to choose from. Your XUL graphical interface will look pretty much primitive compared to it Electron counterpart.vannilla wrote: ↑2022-06-19, 10:33The difference between XUL and HTML is that the latter is designed to lay out content, while the former is designed around user interfaces.
For example, a video element is content and not an interface: that would be the play/pause button in the video player for example. In this case having to use HTML to show a video is the right design choice.
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Re: Is XUL just outdated?
To be a framework for other to build their app with effortlessly like UXP aims to be, it should offer complete widgets set for the users to choose from.
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Re: Is XUL just outdated?
If having an interface that is sane, makes sense, and is suitable for desktop "primitive" for you, then yeah, I guess so. I'd rather take that than the bloated mess that is Electron.nguyen9173 wrote: ↑2022-06-19, 14:14What if I need right in the ui the widgets only HTML5 has? XUL really has not much widgets to choose from. Your XUL graphical interface will look pretty much primitive compared to it Electron counterpart.
merry mimas
XUL add-ons developer. You can find a list of add-ons I manage at http://rw.rs/~job/software.html.
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Re: Is XUL just outdated?
If you really, really need an html widget in your interface it can simply be referenced by including the appropriate namespace. XML languages are flexible like that. Of course referencing the html namespace will also make your xul a lot heavier to render because it will pull the n a lot of stuff it won't need, so the best way to do it is via XBL bindings and ceating a tailored widget yourself
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Re: Is XUL just outdated?
I can't think of any HTML element that an interface would need that XUL doesn't cover already.nguyen9173 wrote: ↑2022-06-19, 14:14What if I need right in the ui the widgets only HTML5 has? XUL really has not much widgets to choose from. Your XUL graphical interface will look pretty much primitive compared to it Electron counterpart.
The translation between the two is not always 1:1, but all you need to make an interface is in XUL.
Is it <div>? There are <vbox> and <hbox>. For text you have <label>, so <p> and the like are not really needed - doubly so since you never write more than two or three lines of text on a user interface, so whole paragraph elements are not needed. XUL has built-in menus, which HTML does not provide in favour of in-site thingies made of <li> and javascript.
And so on so forth.
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Re: Is XUL just outdated?
What widgets are you looking for that are absent in XUL?
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