Replacement UXP e-mail client

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hitokage
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Replacement UXP e-mail client

Unread post by hitokage » 2022-05-12, 11:14

It appears I'm in the market for a replacement e-mail client. I had hoped things would settle down with the developer of what I'm currently using, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Is anyone here planning on doing a fork from the 7899 version? Even if it's provided as generally unsupported/as is like the last versions of FossaMail, that would be good enough.
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Re: Replacement UXP e-mail client

Unread post by ron_1 » 2022-05-12, 12:54

See this post, which came out just about an hour after yours:

https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=28280

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Re: Replacement UXP e-mail client

Unread post by back2themoon » 2022-05-12, 17:12

I mentioned in that thread (currently locked) that it soon won't be possible to access Gmail from a desktop client without OAuth2. However, while they clearly recommend OAuth2 as the preferred way, it might still be possible with the "App Passwords" method:

https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/185833

https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/6010255 (see end of article)

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Re: Replacement UXP e-mail client

Unread post by athenian200 » 2022-05-12, 17:25

Yeah, for what it's worth, I would be willing to assist someone else taking the lead on this with programming and such, but I am not willing to lead the project myself. I really hope someone uses my work as a base and starts over rather than merely forking an old version of Interlink.
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Re: Replacement UXP e-mail client

Unread post by mr tribute » 2022-05-12, 21:40

SeaMonkey is a fine email client. Current version on Linux uses about 350 MB if you start it as an email client and don't use the browser part. There is an extension that lets you open links in your favorite browser.

For those complaining about Gmail, that's like saying Pale Moon isn't optimized for YouTube. Yes, it might be true, but it isn't the purpose of the application. Anyway, my 2 cents...

Mailspring is pretty good for Gmail (no ID required anymore). It's FOSS, but will eat your RAM.
Off-topic:
My wish is to be able to use Pale Moon as my primary browser. I use Brave, but I'm starting to feel more and more alienated. Everything is a headache these days, isn't it? Maybe I'm just too lazy to use two browsers. I remember the good old days that weren't that many years ago. I used Pale Moon for basically everything. One can dream, dream of a new Internet maybe...

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Re: Replacement UXP e-mail client

Unread post by moonbat » 2022-05-13, 00:29

Off-topic:
mr tribute wrote:
2022-05-12, 21:40
I remember the good old days that weren't that many years ago
What good old days? :shock:
One has always had to have IE as a backup to Firefox from back in the day when corporate sites were made only for the former. Chrome and its derivatives are the new IE now. Never got what was so hard or painful about having a backup browser. Pale Moon works for about 95% of the sites I use and Brave covers the few that don't work here.
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Re: Replacement UXP e-mail client

Unread post by mr tribute » 2022-05-13, 02:36

Off-topic:
moonbat wrote:
2022-05-13, 00:29
mr tribute wrote:
2022-05-12, 21:40
I remember the good old days that weren't that many years ago
What good old days? :shock:
One has always had to have IE as a backup to Firefox from back in the day when corporate sites were made only for the former. Chrome and its derivatives are the new IE now. Never got what was so hard or painful about having a backup browser. Pale Moon works for about 95% of the sites I use and Brave covers the few that don't work here.
Pale Moon works quite well. Off the top of my head there is the Cloudflare Browser Integrity Check problem mentioned on this forum. Then GitHub, GitLab and of course banking where even Firefox stopped working. The main problem is that you can run into smaller sites that don't work correctly. For example the menu doesn't work on this site (if you compare with Brave you will see what I mean):
https://teejeetech.com/

Things like that worked a few years ago with minor "gaps" before new Pale Moon rebases. But yeah, the truth is that I got lazy. Didn't want to use two browsers and now I'm tired of Brave. The thing that annoys me is that increased incompatibilities isn't because Pale Moon devs were slacking, but Chromifiction of the Web to the point where Brave has to identify as Chrome to be compatible with all sites and especially those owned by Google.

As Linux users we are already "second class" computer users. I decided I didn't want to be a "second class" Web user. So Brave it was. Then of course all my ftp downloads started failing and other downloads too due to some safe browsing setting. So I had Web compatibility, but became entangled in a Web nanny net. Then at times when I briefly used Pale Moon I realized how bad the Chromium UI really is, but that I somehow had managed to adjust. This was also a revelation of sorts. I would probably browse the Internet with my thumbs on a smartphone if nothing else was available.

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Re: Replacement UXP e-mail client

Unread post by moonbat » 2022-05-13, 03:48

Still don't see what the problem is with having two browsers, it's not as though disk space is at such a premium these days. Pale Moon has 'open with' extensions to open the current page in another browser so it's easier to immediately switch over. I have PM set as default with Brave as the backup. And it's very rare that I have to run that. For that matter I also used to have Basilisk before it was shut down.
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Re: Replacement UXP e-mail client

Unread post by back2themoon » 2022-05-13, 09:41

Ok, it's been locked again right when I was about to post. :)

I'll ask again, what about App Passwords? Shouldn't the client work perfectly fine with Gmail with this? Users would only need to generate and use a different password, just not the one from their Google account. No OAuth2 involvement whatsoever.

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Re: Replacement UXP e-mail client

Unread post by Disil07 » 2022-05-13, 10:13

Moonbat wrote: Still don't see what the problem is with having two browsers, it's not as though disk space is at such a premium these days.
The problem is modern user hates switching between different browsers. The reality I see is they have 5 browsers or more installed, but they only want to use one, because it just works.
mr tribute wrote:
2022-05-12, 21:40
For those complaining about Gmail, that's like saying Pale Moon isn't optimized for YouTube.
No, it's not the same condition. PM is a browser designed to browse the web, it's not a multimedia program. Meanwhile, TB/Interlink is email client designed to read email, including Gmail & others. This is crucial.
back2themoon wrote:
2022-05-13, 09:41
what about App Passwords?
As far as I remember app password is only available for user with 2FA enabled. Not many people use that though.
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Re: Replacement UXP e-mail client

Unread post by back2themoon » 2022-05-13, 11:11

Disil07 wrote:
2022-05-13, 10:13
As far as I remember app password is only available for user with 2FA enabled. Not many people use that though.
That's correct, but it certainly doesn't sound like a showstopper for someone looking for an alternative client.

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Re: Replacement UXP e-mail client

Unread post by hitokage » 2022-05-13, 11:13

Since the other thread is locked I'll add this here. Using an App Password as mentioned by back2themoon is the way around having to get keys/licensing/whatever to handle OAuth2 if needed. I've actually been using that already for an old Yahoo account.

After doing some brief experimentation, Google does require you have their 2-Step Verification turned on to create an app password, and you have to keep it on - otherwise the app password no longer works.

For OAuth2 with Yahoo/AOL/Verizon, for anyone interested here is a link to the Yahoo OAuth 2.0 Guide.
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To be clear this quote is not directed at Pale Moon, but a lot of other things in general.

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Re: Replacement UXP e-mail client

Unread post by Eduardo Lucas » 2022-05-13, 14:29

You may call me nuts buf im using a old XUL addon email client in pale moon. It is obviously not as powerful but it does the job for me, as i like to use PM for most tasks i can without using many other programs

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Re: Replacement UXP e-mail client

Unread post by Moonchild » 2022-05-13, 14:40

Eduardo Lucas wrote:
2022-05-13, 14:29
im using a old XUL addon email client in pale moon.
SimpleMail? I used that for a while.
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Re: Replacement UXP e-mail client

Unread post by back2themoon » 2022-05-13, 14:47

Interesting - I always knew SimpleMail as an Amiga client. There's even an OAuth2 request with some info, here:

https://github.com/sba1/simplemail/issues/48

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Re: Replacement UXP e-mail client

Unread post by Eduardo Lucas » 2022-05-13, 14:52

Moonchild wrote:
2022-05-13, 14:40
Eduardo Lucas wrote:
2022-05-13, 14:29
im using a old XUL addon email client in pale moon.
SimpleMail? I used that for a while.
Yeah, this one. It works well, albeit a bit slow if you have to setup and load +20k mails from 4 old accounts. Not really its fault for me. Its a lot of stuff.

Btw, i would love a dedicated pale moon addon from some developer, something closer to a full featured client.

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Re: Replacement UXP e-mail client

Unread post by Baloo » 2022-05-13, 14:56

back2themoon wrote:
2022-05-13, 11:11
Disil07 wrote:
2022-05-13, 10:13
As far as I remember app password is only available for user with 2FA enabled. Not many people use that though.
That's correct, but it certainly doesn't sound like a showstopper for someone looking for an alternative client.
I agree that this may be the correct solution to the OAuth2 issue. Most GMail accounts are through organizations that require SSO or 2FA to be automatically enabled anyway.
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Re: Replacement UXP e-mail client

Unread post by Baloo » 2022-05-13, 17:17

Scratch, that looks like its going to be only OAuth2 for GMail authentication for the future. What a terrible service. Everyone should jump ship from Google if you haven't already.

http://www.pmail.com/newsflash.htm
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Re: Replacement UXP e-mail client

Unread post by back2themoon » 2022-05-13, 18:09

Baloo wrote:
2022-05-13, 17:17
Scratch, that looks like its going to be only OAuth2 for GMail authentication for the future.
There is no indication or official statement that App Passwords with 2FA will stop working. Announcement: https://support.google.com/accounts/ans ... 0255?hl=en

Note: "...will no longer support the use of third-party apps or devices which ask you to sign in to your Google Account using only your username and password".

This method uses a different password. Also:
Less secure apps & your Google Account - Termination date of May 30th 2022

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Re: Replacement UXP e-mail client

Unread post by mr tribute » 2022-05-13, 22:27

Disil07 wrote:
2022-05-13, 10:13
Moonbat wrote: Still don't see what the problem is with having two browsers, it's not as though disk space is at such a premium these days.
The problem is modern user hates switching between different browsers. The reality I see is they have 5 browsers or more installed, but they only want to use one, because it just works.
I agree with this, but as everything else it's a habit.
Disil07 wrote:
2022-05-13, 10:13
mr tribute wrote:
2022-05-12, 21:40
For those complaining about Gmail, that's like saying Pale Moon isn't optimized for YouTube.
No, it's not the same condition. PM is a browser designed to browse the web, it's not a multimedia program. Meanwhile, TB/Interlink is email client designed to read email, including Gmail & others. This is crucial.
Sorry for being 14 years old, but this is only crucial for gmail users. It isn't crucial for email users. Flash had nothing to do with html. Oauth has nothing to do with email. Adobe was kind and made Flash plugins for every browser. Oauth devs gave the middle finger to application devs, because third party applications are bad:
Eran Hammer resigned from his role of lead author for the OAuth 2.0 project, withdrew from the IETF working group, and removed his name from the specification in July 2012. Hammer cited a conflict between web and enterprise cultures as his reason for leaving, noting that IETF is a community that is "all about enterprise use cases" and "not capable of simple". "What is now offered is a blueprint for an authorization protocol", he noted, "that is the enterprise way", providing a "whole new frontier to sell consulting services and integration solutions".[27]

In comparing OAuth 2.0 with OAuth 1.0, Hammer points out that it has become "more complex, less interoperable, less useful, more incomplete, and most importantly, less secure". He explains how architectural changes for 2.0 unbound tokens from clients, removed all signatures and cryptography at a protocol level and added expiring tokens (because tokens could not be revoked) while complicating the processing of authorization. Numerous items were left unspecified or unlimited in the specification because "as has been the nature of this working group, no issue is too small to get stuck on or leave open for each implementation to decide."[27]

David Recordon later also removed his name from the specifications for unspecified reasons.[citation needed] Dick Hardt took over the editor role, and the framework was published in October 2012.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OAuth

Read the quote above and tell me this isn't clown world and just a way to push "official clients" or the Web UI. Gmail isn't only about email; they want the proper telemetry data and maybe ads for the complete experience. Hence the middle finger to third party application developers. There are sustainable email solutions out there. It's just a matter of not being too lazy to move to a "paid, but free" solution. It's something I have been contemplating for a while.

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