Internet Becomming Hostile to Pale Moon

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Shadeclan
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Internet Becomming Hostile to Pale Moon

Unread post by Shadeclan » 2022-01-03, 18:00

First, let me start off with saying that I love Pale Moon and I will be continuing to use it as my default/go-to browser until it stops working altogether - I am currently using the standard tarball found here on Linux Mint v18 and 20.1.

Given that, I have had to use other browsers with increasing frequency as Pale Moon is increasingly prevented from loading various different sites. Some web developers are building websites that will ONLY run on Google Chrome (will not even run on a webkit-based browser like Brave) and Google sites like YouTube are becoming increasingly glitchy. I can still get into my GMail but Google absolutely refuses to allow access to Google Drive - I keep getting redirected here. I am actively searching for alternative websites that provide these services - Nextcloud in general and /e/ in particular seems very accommodating and I'm using these services more and more for calendar / email / cloud drives and especially task tracking. Rumble is becoming more relevant as people flee YouTube because of censorship. DuckDuckGo and StartPage are constantly improving their search capabilities and I'm using Google search very rarely anymore.

I doubt that there is anything that Moonchild can do about this but I wanted to bring it to his attention, if he's not already aware of it. I promote Pale Moon where I can but I have never been able to convince anyone to program for Pale Moon or even remove their browser sniffing and let Pale Moon make the attempt to render their site.

I think things are becoming increasingly oppressive - and oppression means fewer choices.
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Re: Internet Becomming Hostile to Pale Moon

Unread post by Lucio Chiappetti » 2022-01-03, 18:07

I share your concern, however I must say that google drive (which I have to use, though rarely, for institutional work) does work with my Pale Moon (just tried). There is a warning popup, but it works.
Anyhow I would not be concerned by using chrome to access google services (as I do for google meet again for institutional work), I log in to their system to use their services. However I'd loathe using chrome (and being tracked) for other sites. I stopped using google search in favour of duckduckgo, and I use openstreetmap instead of google maps except for public transport or earth view, which aren't available elsewhere (however I do not login in such cases).
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Re: Internet Becomming Hostile to Pale Moon

Unread post by moonbat » 2022-01-04, 00:11

I really don't get this expectation of using exactly one browser for everything, and the indignation among some people at the idea of having more than one. I find Pale Moon more than adequate for the sites I visit - Google, Facebook and other social media not being among them. I keep Brave around for those.
Before Chrome there was IE, which was the default browser to go to if a site wouldn't open in Firefox.
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Re: Internet Becomming Hostile to Pale Moon

Unread post by Pause » 2022-01-04, 14:52

moonbat wrote:
2022-01-04, 00:11
I really don't get this expectation of using exactly one browser for everything, and the indignation among some people at the idea of having more than one. I find Pale Moon more than adequate for the sites I visit - Google, Facebook and other social media not being among them. I keep Brave around for those.
Before Chrome there was IE, which was the default browser to go to if a site wouldn't open in Firefox.
For me at least, I'd love to be able to use Pale Moon 100% of the time, with the point of it being that sites should be browser-agnostic rather than the increasingly Chrome-centric approach.

That doesn't mean that I wouldn't use another browser if necessary for certain sites/tasks, but more that I wish it wasn't necessary.

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Re: Internet Becomming Hostile to Pale Moon

Unread post by moonbat » 2022-01-04, 23:25

Pause wrote:
2022-01-04, 14:52
increasingly Chrome-centric approach
A standard is something that is well defined and can be trusted to not change arbitrarily. Google destroyed that notion with regard to HTML, CSS and Javascript with their constant breaking changes and draft specs. In fact I don't think websites are as much to blame directly given many of them use ReactJS framework - which is authored by Google and probably introduces these changes to match the latest shiny in Chrome.
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Re: Internet Becomming Hostile to Pale Moon

Unread post by Shadeclan » 2022-01-07, 14:35

Lucio Chiappetti wrote:
2022-01-03, 18:07
I share your concern, however I must say that google drive (which I have to use, though rarely, for institutional work) does work with my Pale Moon (just tried). There is a warning popup, but it works.
Anyhow I would not be concerned by using chrome to access google services (as I do for google meet again for institutional work), I log in to their system to use their services. However I'd loathe using chrome (and being tracked) for other sites. I stopped using google search in favour of duckduckgo, and I use openstreetmap instead of google maps except for public transport or earth view, which aren't available elsewhere (however I do not login in such cases).
Are you using Pale Moon with Windows? I have found in the past that the Windows version seems more robust and will frequently render (or be allowed to render) a page where the Linux version will not.
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Re: Internet Becomming Hostile to Pale Moon

Unread post by Shadeclan » 2022-01-07, 14:43

moonbat wrote:
2022-01-04, 00:11
I really don't get this expectation of using exactly one browser for everything, and the indignation among some people at the idea of having more than one. I find Pale Moon more than adequate for the sites I visit - Google, Facebook and other social media not being among them. I keep Brave around for those.
Before Chrome there was IE, which was the default browser to go to if a site wouldn't open in Firefox.
It's not exactly 'indignation', it's more along the lines of 'troubling'. I simply find that more and more websites are using browser sniffing and denying Pale Moon the opportunity of rendering that website. Everyone is all aglow over Chrome - and Chrome is the absolute WORST browser, in my opinion, if privacy and security are an issue. Moonchild has gone to great lengths to make Pale Moon the most secure and private browser out there and I support his efforts 110%.
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Re: Internet Becomming Hostile to Pale Moon

Unread post by Shadeclan » 2022-01-07, 14:45

moonbat wrote:
2022-01-04, 23:25
Pause wrote:
2022-01-04, 14:52
increasingly Chrome-centric approach
A standard is something that is well defined and can be trusted to not change arbitrarily. Google destroyed that notion with regard to HTML, CSS and Javascript with their constant breaking changes and draft specs. In fact I don't think websites are as much to blame directly given many of them use ReactJS framework - which is authored by Google and probably introduces these changes to match the latest shiny in Chrome.
I see. Well, nobody can accuse Google folks of being stupid. Provide the browser to render the website and the tools to write those websites (with dependencies on Chrome, of course) and Bob's your uncle.

Very disturbing.
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Re: Internet Becomming Hostile to Pale Moon

Unread post by Moonchild » 2022-01-07, 17:13

Shadeclan wrote:
2022-01-07, 14:45
Provide the browser to render the website and the tools to write those websites
And don't forget to make sure you have a small team of spec writers to write a new spec every time the browser adds a custom feature, so if there's resistance one can point to the specs and say "it's official, you should have this too".
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Re: Internet Becomming Hostile to Pale Moon

Unread post by moonbat » 2022-01-08, 13:08

Shadeclan wrote:
2022-01-07, 14:43
I simply find that more and more websites are using browser sniffing and denying Pale Moon the opportunity of rendering that website. Everyone is all aglow over Chrome - and Chrome is the absolute WORST browser, in my opinion, if privacy and security are an issue.
If you're old enough to remember, Chrome is the new IE, but far worse when it comes to monopolistic behavior and tactics. Microsoft wasn't trying to take over the very standards themselves, everything they did was to protect their Windows hegemony since applications running on a web browser make the operating system irrelevant. Which is what has finally happened now, but Windows is no longer the crown jewel that it was for them 20 years ago; that spot belongs to Azure.
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Re: Internet Becomming Hostile to Pale Moon

Unread post by Shadeclan » 2022-01-10, 15:25

moonbat wrote:
2022-01-08, 13:08
Shadeclan wrote:
2022-01-07, 14:43
I simply find that more and more websites are using browser sniffing and denying Pale Moon the opportunity of rendering that website. Everyone is all aglow over Chrome - and Chrome is the absolute WORST browser, in my opinion, if privacy and security are an issue.
If you're old enough to remember, Chrome is the new IE, but far worse when it comes to monopolistic behavior and tactics. Microsoft wasn't trying to take over the very standards themselves, everything they did was to protect their Windows hegemony since applications running on a web browser make the operating system irrelevant. Which is what has finally happened now, but Windows is no longer the crown jewel that it was for them 20 years ago; that spot belongs to Azure.
I'm old enough to remember when UHF TV was a thing ... :-)

Yeah, I'm afraid Google thinks they have everyone over a barrel here but I'm thinking that they're digging a pit for others that they, themselves are going to fall into. Time will tell.
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Re: Internet Becomming Hostile to Pale Moon

Unread post by Shadeclan » 2022-01-10, 15:29

Moonchild wrote:
2022-01-07, 17:13
Shadeclan wrote:
2022-01-07, 14:45
Provide the browser to render the website and the tools to write those websites
And don't forget to make sure you have a small team of spec writers to write a new spec every time the browser adds a custom feature, so if there's resistance one can point to the specs and say "it's official, you should have this too".
Yeah, I should have known you had already run into this. I still feel that things will look up for Pale Moon - time will tell. I use Brave in cases where Pale Moon doesn't work and it's having the same sorts of problems - not so many, of course, since their webkit-based, but they are still glitchy with some sites. Only Chrome has no issues - *surprise!* :x
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Re: Internet Becomming Hostile to Pale Moon

Unread post by MrMobodies » 2022-02-09, 23:00

I have not had that problem yet but it'd be devastating in restricting the browser market.

Actually I did have something happen last year but only once where a website refused to let me see the contents because it was on Vivaldi (despite being chrome based). Tried Chrome 81 which was what that based on and it worked. So i turned of java and white page. I remembered copying and pasting the url on Palemoon and white page. So in QuickJava I turned off Javascript until CSS where the text appeared (I only wanted to read the text) and it looked they just covered over it if conditions are met which I thought was completely outrageous.

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Re: Internet Becomming Hostile to Pale Moon

Unread post by juxwillx » 2022-02-16, 12:15

I can relate, gmail and other google sites are the ones I open the most in browser. and now they're not working with it. i love thhis browser but what's the point of using it now when most sites aren't even working.

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Re: Internet Becomming Hostile to Pale Moon

Unread post by Moonchild » 2022-02-16, 13:42

juxwillx wrote:
2022-02-16, 12:15
I can relate, gmail and other google sites are the ones I open the most in browser. and now they're not working with it. i love thhis browser but what's the point of using it now when most sites aren't even working.
To be clear, "most sites" are working. they just aren't the sites you use most. That brings me to the point why you decided to register here to make this statement when you don't see the point in using it, instead of just using something that works for you? It's a well-established fact that Google sites first and foremost target Google's browser. That being said, I have no issue using gmail's webmail, google maps, or google translate (the three services I occasionally use) in Pale Moon. So.... :?:
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Re: Internet Becomming Hostile to Pale Moon

Unread post by andyprough » 2022-02-16, 15:04

juxwillx wrote:
2022-02-16, 12:15
I can relate, gmail and other google sites are the ones I open the most in browser. and now they're not working with it.
I just went to gmail.com, signed in my university credentials, and am looking at the inbox. Clicked on an email link to a google drive document and that's working. It's not the email or cloud storage that I would have chosen, but the university didn't ask me, and anyway the sites work completely normal with Pale Moon.

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Re: Internet Becomming Hostile to Pale Moon

Unread post by Pentium4User » 2022-02-16, 15:53

It's not the email or cloud storage that I would have chosen,
Off-topic:
You can use SMTP and IMAP for E-Mail with Google, you don't need to use their web interface.
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Re: Internet Becomming Hostile to Pale Moon

Unread post by Lucio Chiappetti » 2022-02-16, 20:31

Off-topic:
You can even use fetchmail and fake Gsuite mail arrives directly to your inbox, as it used to do when we were running sendmail on our own MX
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Re: Internet Becomming Hostile to Pale Moon

Unread post by van p » 2022-02-17, 04:53

juxwillx wrote:
2022-02-16, 12:15
I can relate, gmail and other google sites are the ones I open the most in browser. and now they're not working with it. i love thhis browser but what's the point of using it now when most sites aren't even working.
1. Most sites work for me.
2. Don't use anything Google.
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Re: Internet Becomming Hostile to Pale Moon

Unread post by moonbat » 2022-02-17, 05:43

Off-topic:
Amazing and depressing how 'the internet' for so many people means just Google, Facebook and their various properties, or video/audio chat which deserves to be a separate application.
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