Try getting PaleMoon included in caniuse.com, w3schools.com etc.

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Try getting PaleMoon included in caniuse.com, w3schools.com etc.

Unread post by jb_wisemo » 2021-09-08, 17:22

There are a number of websites that web developers around the world use to check if a HTML/CSS/JavaScript technique is compatible with the general web to which they code their sites.

Key sites include: caniuse.com, w3schools.com, ssllabs.com, browsehappy.com and perhaps some others.

I propose that the Pale Moon project reach out to those sites to get them to list Pale Moon / Goanna compatiblity on par with how they previously listed Opera / Presto compatibility. I expect a cascading effect from getting listed on some such sites to getting the others to cover Pale Moon compatibility.

But the first step is for someone for the Pale Moon project to reach out to those sites in a non-confrontational manner.

Unfortunately, some key team members, while doing great work, tend to phrase themselves in manners that chase away entire communities from Pale Moon, simply from those people being their first encounter. In other words you need to send a skilled diplomatic envoy, not a general experienced in declaring wars.

(Please feel free to move this to a more appropriate sub forum for discussion of Pale Moon advocacy).

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Re: Try getting PaleMoon included in caniuse.com, w3schools.com etc.

Unread post by vannilla » 2021-09-08, 17:32

You (or anyone else, really) could also try to reach for one of those sites so that they are made aware of Pale Moon (and Basilisk, and Borealis when it will be released.)
Of course for things to proceed they need to be carried by both parties, but the starting point doesn't have to be entirely up to Moonchild or Tobin or some other core developer.

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Re: Try getting PaleMoon included in caniuse.com, w3schools.com etc.

Unread post by Moonchild » 2021-09-08, 18:32

Off-topic:
jb_wisemo wrote:
2021-09-08, 17:22
Unfortunately, some key team members, while doing great work, tend to phrase themselves in manners that chase away entire communities from Pale Moon
If you're convinced that when someone takes offence it's always the other side to blame, then I guess this request posted here is talking to the wrong crowd. Effectively you don't want us to reach out?
We don't have droves of skilled diplomats hiding in our back room, so if that's what it takes to be included in current-day popular site lineups, then I guess it'll never happen. Why don't you reach out to them, instead? You think you are a skilled diplomat? If not, who would be?

(to be frank coming here with such a post with implied blame and that we'd be brusk and confrontational when reaching out and contacting strangers, I could have taken offence myself. see what I mean?)
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Re: Try getting PaleMoon included in caniuse.com, w3schools.com etc.

Unread post by Tharthan » 2021-09-08, 19:49

Off-topic:
Moonchild wrote:
2021-09-08, 18:32
If you're convinced that when someone takes offence it's always the other side to blame, then I guess this request posted here is talking to the wrong crowd.
I'm not certain that that is what jb_wisemo was saying. I myself have been sent messages by a few users right before they have left, telling me that they left because they were getting sick of a tiny minority of users (some who actually contribute to the project significantly, though) being so verbally aggressive or outright hostile. One explicitly told me that they believe that Pale Moon and UXP are absolutely necessary in today's world, and they will continue to utilise both, but that the attitude of a small number of people in the forum community was just too rude for their liking.

I don't think that it is so unreasonable for people to expect a support forum to have a friendly and patient attitude.

Of course, I completely understand why the patience of people here has been exhausted. A significant number of annoying, entitled, and thickheaded end users who have raised a stink when they couldn't get their way has worn out the patience of people here. And not just them, but also people who have lied, have twisted words, and have outright betrayed you and the Pale Moon team more generally.

As such, I would offer the suggestion that we have a sort of "customer support" person who could be easily deployed when annoying, entitled, and/or thickheaded people pop up. That person could give a friendly, calm, and relaxed response to that difficult person's question(s).

The user here who I think demonstrates the perfect way about themselves for that kind of position would be athenian200. But, of course, everything that I have just said is merely a suggestion.

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576tomoyo

Re: Try getting PaleMoon included in caniuse.com, w3schools.com etc.

Unread post by 576tomoyo » 2021-09-08, 20:27

vannilla wrote:
2021-09-08, 17:32
You (or anyone else, really) could also try to reach for one of those sites so that they are made aware of Pale Moon (and Basilisk, and Borealis when it will be released.)
Of course for things to proceed they need to be carried by both parties, but the starting point doesn't have to be entirely up to Moonchild or Tobin or some other core developer.
I'd imagine it'd be best for someone closely affiliated to the actual project to make a big part of the move (even though this very thread is technically the starting point already) - a community individual doesn't necessarily represent the project in itself, and I'd imagine it'd be best for someone who knew all the ins and outs of the Goanna engine/UXP/PaleMoon/the community to submit information about the project to browser testing websites - I'm not really sure how these things are approved but I imagine you'd typically go about referencing articles and such to point out that you're a relevant enough and mature/stabily developed product that deserves to go on such sites.

(Then again, for some reason, doesn't Edge get listed on some of those sites despite using Chrome's engine, and IE even despite it being discontinued now?)

Not saying it's a bad idea - I actually think it's a really good one, and potentially this thread will promote some support for it to end up on those sites as Goanna is its own thing, and shouldn't really be neglected from said lists.

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Re: Try getting PaleMoon included in caniuse.com, w3schools.com etc.

Unread post by Moonchild » 2021-09-08, 20:35

Tharthan wrote:
2021-09-08, 19:49
demonstrates the perfect way about themselves for that kind of position would be athenian200
Honestly I don't want to ask that of him. he does a fastastic job diving deep into code and if he becomes a forum catalyst then that will take his time.

We're just too short-handed to provide proper "commercial-like" support because, be honest, we're not a large company. We shouldn't be treated as such and people shouldn't expect woolly mittens treatment from us. Having a direct unfiltered line to the devs also means that you deal with people who are, by nature, extremely direct (because that's simply how those brains work).
We can't put massive filters on when interacting because then we'd be spending more time being "politically correct" than providing answers.

On top, people come here with predispositions (see also the topic starter) that they expect to find insult, and if you are searching for insult you will always find it. More than a few times forum staff has been on the receiving end of people blowing a gasket because of normal moderative actions like declining a first post for being totally off-topic for where it was posted. My point is that if people respond like that over normal etiquette things, and then go and take their fuming head and spew bile about us elsewhere because of their own thin skin, then what do you expect us to do? Especially if they run into the open arms of hate groups who are given safe havens on Reddit and MSFN and the likes? Things are heavily stacked against us in that respect, and there's no simple blame to assign for "you need to have a different approach to your users". It's not how we work and it's not how we can work. Tolerance has to exist on both sides.

Do you expect diplomat level conversation when you go out to a construction site talking to the workers there? Would you be offended if you hear some swear words sounding across the site in that case? Especially if people are constantly being pushed around and aggravated by rabble-rousers? Well then.

But we can also shut down the forum if it's considered too abrasive and make it announcement-only. Does mean support will drop a good amount.
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576tomoyo

Re: Try getting PaleMoon included in caniuse.com, w3schools.com etc.

Unread post by 576tomoyo » 2021-09-08, 23:49

Moonchild wrote:We shouldn't be treated as such and people shouldn't expect woolly mittens treatment from us. Having a direct unfiltered line to the devs also means that you deal with people who are, by nature, extremely direct (because that's simply how those brains work).
We can't put massive filters on when interacting because then we'd be spending more time being "politically correct" than providing answers.
I think in some cases there are probably genuine newbies trying out the browser, who come over and are simply made fun of by the more seasoned members of the forum (particularly the higher-ups) if their queries seem asinine.

You certainly also bring up a good point about the 'being direct causing issues with certain people', since I've always seen PaleMoon as a product geared towards developers and advanced users particularly those disgruntled with the Modern Web and the overly-sensitive requirements and the likes of 'wrongthink' seemingly being an actual thing, that comes with it.

On a somewhat related, possibly off-topic/tangenting note, quite a considerable bulk of the individuals who seem to complain about this community (and any others that seemingly are too 'politically incorrect'/'direct' to them despite appealing to their interests)n are mentally unstable teenagers with little to no social life and an unhealthy obsession for early-mid 2000s Internet aesthetics... As a former admin of a place adjacent to these, the drama in them is beyond petty and can go on for years without any resolvation; it's often the same kinda group of people that are often targets for stalking on KiwiFarms and 4chan that seem to be like this, for reference - not that I support that behaviour either, nor the fact that KiwiFarms' owner is in bed with CloudFlare's CEO...

Can't really comment on anything else here as I don't have too much to say (and as someone not particularly intelligent I don't really want to derail the thread with nonsense - if I did, I apologise), but I can definitely say that.

>shut down the forum
Probably silly of an idea, as the forums do provide a nice way to document things and are easily searchable unlike say an IRC room or Discord (don't get me started on FOSS that uses Discord over IRC... I've actually seen this)

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Re: Try getting PaleMoon included in caniuse.com, w3schools.com etc.

Unread post by vannilla » 2021-09-09, 00:27

576tomoyo wrote:
2021-09-08, 23:49
KiwiFarms' owner is in bed with CloudFlare's CEO...
Off-topic:
Josh is? Didn't he put up the KiwiFarms server in his bedroom specifically to avoid depending on those kind of services?
576tomoyo wrote:
2021-09-08, 23:49
(don't get me started on FOSS that uses Discord over IRC... I've actually seen this)
Speaking of this, I went to search for contact informations in the Can I Use site and I can't seem to find any easy to access way of reaching the site maintainers.
All I could find are links to Twitter, which is not exactly the best thing to use to ask for support (not to mention it requires an account and all that it entails.)
Haven't looked at other places, but I've seen a trend where some sites completely lack any contact informations, directing you to log in some kind of third-party platform unrelated to the website.
I can understand that using that platform simplifies support, especially when the team is small and/or made by volunteers, but not giving anything else for those people who can't use the platform is some pretty terrible "customer support".

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Re: Try getting PaleMoon included in caniuse.com, w3schools.com etc.

Unread post by Eduardo Lucas » 2021-09-09, 03:09

jb_wisemo wrote:
2021-09-08, 17:22


Unfortunately, some key team members, while doing great work, tend to phrase themselves in manners that chase away entire communities from Pale Moon
Sorry but this is the main problem that ISN'T Pale Moon team responsability. The communities are usually too ettiquette/compliance-driven, something that is completely analogue to computing as an culture. The business culture has infected it in a way that communities are looking to individuals and groups as the main focus. Moonchild stated in a post here in the forum about the tribal-like mentality of most communities today. Looking at humans personalities and public behavior for objective evaluation of projects and software is the naiviest and most toxic path, which divides and harms the future of non-corporate computing and computer freedom. This must stop. Developers aren't obliged to keep PR activities, are not forced to speak and act as good guys. They must focus on what they do best, and they are also not head of states or directors to be obliged to send customer relationship specialists to deal with people's moods.

576tomoyo

Re: Try getting PaleMoon included in caniuse.com, w3schools.com etc.

Unread post by 576tomoyo » 2021-09-09, 12:56

That's something Pale Moon basically doesn't have - any proper public relations for situations like what's happened in the past, and it's unlikely to change in the future with the current situation of the internet being a few massive tribes, as Moonchild has called it.

And to be honest, since this place seems to be more or less a political neutral it's more likely to get attacked than anywhere else - you have things like the 'not supportive of BLM' that piss off the far-left types I mentioned earlier, for instance. It's as though there's no middle ground anymore, only far-left and far-right, and you either associate with one or the other, or you're fucked. Scandinavians tend to be pretty much in the middle from my own experience with them online, and Moonchild is Swedish, so this sense of neutrality continuing past the 20th century does make sense.

That's my experience over the past few years, so honestly something like Pale Moon is a nice fresh breath of air, somewhere that sits in the middle and doesn't try to be a radical political activist over actual development of an original product (Mozilla) or an organisation looking to monopolise the internet (Goolag).

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Re: Try getting PaleMoon included in caniuse.com, w3schools.com etc.

Unread post by Tharthan » 2021-09-09, 13:21

576tomoyo wrote:
2021-09-09, 12:56
Moonchild is Swedish
No, Moonchild is Dutch. He lives in Sweden these days, but he is Dutch.
Off-topic:
I would suggest, respectfully, that you consider being present in the community for more than just a few days before you start getting deeply involved in serious discussions relating to the project.
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Re: Try getting PaleMoon included in caniuse.com, w3schools.com etc.

Unread post by Moonchild » 2021-09-09, 14:59

576tomoyo wrote:
2021-09-09, 12:56
you have things like the 'not supportive of BLM' that piss off the far-left types
The thing is, "not supportive of" for a lot of people implies "actively opposing", which isn't true. Because (more tribal thinking) "If you're not with us then you're against us" which is almost never true on its own.

It's also not even true that we're "not supportive of BLM"; my problem with the situation was that people who wanted to support the project were aiding BLM whether they wanted to or not, just because a support mechanism was used that used their margin to support such political activist groups. And what I am not supportive of is the fact that it would be log-rolled with supporting us. It wouldn't have mattered which political activist group would be used as the beneficiary; I'd still have disagreed with it because users should have a choice to support only those activist groups they agree with, and supporting Pale Moon should not equal supporting anything else they might not agree with.
Maybe a subtle difference to some, but not to me (which resulted in my change of support structure for the project).

Unfortunately this misinterpretation of my actions was interpreted the tribal way and blown out of proportion resulting in something that is objectively being more neutral as being seen as something extremist or racist.
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576tomoyo

Re: Try getting PaleMoon included in caniuse.com, w3schools.com etc.

Unread post by 576tomoyo » 2021-09-10, 15:03

Tharthan wrote:
2021-09-09, 13:21
Off-topic:
I would suggest, respectfully, that you consider being present in the community for more than just a few days before you start getting deeply involved in serious discussions relating to the project.
Considering that I guess I probably look like some kind of a 'red flag' user from my previous posts, I suppose you're right... I should probably lurk more and actually try to be of use to others here, but I'm not particularly technical, I just like to get involved in discussions...

(As for my own usage of the browser, I've heard of and used the browser just around the time it forked from Gecko if memory serves me right - I first heard of the Atom-optimised build of v26 in 2015, which literally blew me away over the alternatives around at the time.)
Moonchild wrote:
2021-09-09, 14:59
snip
If someone wants to support [something], they should be able to without compromising their personal values as a result. The focus of such support from someone should go entirely towards the [something], not for it to end up somewhere else that they didn't ask for or support. (A similar thing can be said about user data, in all honesty.)

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Re: Try getting PaleMoon included in caniuse.com, w3schools.com etc.

Unread post by moonbat » 2021-09-13, 13:12

576tomoyo wrote:
2021-09-10, 15:03
I should probably lurk more
You mean lurk less :P
576tomoyo wrote:
2021-09-10, 15:03
I'm not particularly technical, I just like to get involved in discussions...
Not everyone that's active on the forums is a technical expert, we all like to talk and discuss various things. I've been a regular for years and have been logging on less frequently in the last couple of months because of work. There's a reason we have the Off topic board - you can discuss topics not related to Pale Moon or even technology for that matter. There's a long running thread about music we're listening to, for example - people share Youtube links to songs they like.
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Re: Try getting PaleMoon included in caniuse.com, w3schools.com etc.

Unread post by back2themoon » 2021-09-13, 15:17

So... did anyone contact those key websites in the end or are we only enriching the PM forum?

Before you ask, no, I did not since:

a) I'm no web developer to properly phrase this very meaningful request
b) I'm no web developer to respond to queries from those websites
c) It's not up to me making requests on behalf of the PM project

@jb_wisemo: you got the name wrong

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Re: Try getting PaleMoon included in caniuse.com, w3schools.com etc.

Unread post by BenFenner » 2021-09-13, 15:33

Oh, seems I posted about this in a different thread, when it is more appropriate here.

I started the conversation with caniuse.com back in 2015, if anyone would like to contribute to it:
https://github.com/Fyrd/caniuse/issues/2129

It is interesting this thread got this long before anyone even noticed.
Yes, caniuse.com has been contacted about the issue.
It has been close to 6 years, so it seems it will take the long game. :)
Last edited by BenFenner on 2021-09-13, 16:01, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Try getting PaleMoon included in caniuse.com, w3schools.com etc.

Unread post by BenFenner » 2021-09-13, 15:55

Moonchild wrote:
2021-09-09, 14:59
It's also not even true that we're "not supportive of BLM"; my problem with the situation was that people who wanted to support the project were aiding BLM whether they wanted to or not, just because a support mechanism was used that used their margin to support such political activist groups. And what I am not supportive of is the fact that it would be log-rolled with supporting us.
Off-topic:
I didn't mention this at the time, but I wish I had.

I agreed with the removal of support mechanisms that were tied to other support mechanisms, for the reasons you, Moonchild, put forth.
But I wondered if the problem could have been solved in a different way.

Instead of removing the donation technique, place a clear warning next to the option, stating that by using this donation technique, you may/will be supporting XYZ other cause. Or if that is too much work to keep up to date, just mention the first cause that prompted the warning, and direct the donator to do their own additional research. Something like "This donation method supported Black Lives Matter in 2020. Check their contemporary affiliations for current info."
You could have a handful of donation techniques, all with their own biases listed, and it would no longer be an issue for the project, since the donator would be informed. Heck, now the donators can kill two birds with one stone, as it were, if they so choose.

I think this works as long as you have at least one "neutral" donation technique for those who see the warnings and wish to avoid all of the side-effects. This one technique is required by your standards anyway...

Something I wish I'd brought up a long time ago, anyway.
Last edited by BenFenner on 2021-09-13, 16:05, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Try getting PaleMoon included in caniuse.com, w3schools.com etc.

Unread post by BenFenner » 2021-09-13, 15:59

moonbat wrote:
2021-09-13, 13:12
576tomoyo wrote:
2021-09-10, 15:03
I should probably lurk more
You mean lurk less :P
Off-topic:
No, "lurk more" is the correct terminology here. tomoyo was saying they should sit back and read more, without posting as much. Lurk more, post less. It is a common phrase.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define. ... urk%20more

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Re: Try getting PaleMoon included in caniuse.com, w3schools.com etc.

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2021-09-13, 17:45

Off-topic:
Properly it should be "lurk moar".

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Re: Try getting PaleMoon included in caniuse.com, w3schools.com etc.

Unread post by jb_wisemo » 2021-09-15, 15:17

Just to clarify a few things.
  • The suggestion was for the project (not random fans like me) to reach out to all those sites in the hope that at least one would start listing Pale Moon compatibility of techniques, DOM elements etc. Then once that was achieved, use it as leverage to get more sites on board.
  • My comment about communities was not about web forums or political groups, but about actual communities of technical people. I vaguely recall an incident a few years back where an open source UNIX distribution was scared away from packaging Pale Moon when the first message they got from Pale Moon was an angry message calling their first packaging attempt a copyright violation.
    As a manner of politeness, I am not naming names, merely suggesting that those who have sent such messages in the past refrain from being the first envoy to new potential allies in the fight against browser monoculture.
:idea: The old attempt to contact caniuse.com seem to have mostly failed (according to other replies above), so maybe it is a good idea to try some of the other sites that web developers use to learn about browser compatibility.

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