Online multi browser testing websites - why don't any seem to include Pale Moon?

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Lunokhod
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Online multi browser testing websites - why don't any seem to include Pale Moon?

Unread post by Lunokhod » 2021-05-21, 02:34

There are various sites, some free, some paid, where website developers can test their sites against 1000's of browser, OS and hardware combinations.
For example:
https://www.browserstack.com/list-of-br ... forms/live
https://crossbrowsertesting.com/browsers
But searching online I couldn't find any that featured Pale Moon. So perhaps getting some of those to add Pale Moon to the list would help solve some compatibility issues in advance? If say some free test suite did support it then at least it would make it possible for web developers to easily check their site was going to work OK before they released new versions. This is just some vague suggestion or idea and I didn't find any other discussion on the subject searching here. :idea:
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Re: Online multi browser testing websites - why don't any seem to include Pale Moon?

Unread post by moonbat » 2021-05-21, 03:12

Used to be that you tested your website for standards compliance with HTML/CSS/Javascript and not individual browsers. Google fucked things up forever with Chrome by constantly introducing breaking draft specs for everything, and being very lax about enforcing standards compliance, as seen with so many broken sites that work in Chrome but not Pale Moon because Pale Moon follows the published standards for that feature.

So running a test for every browser is lunacy. It was bad enough back in the day with Netscape vs IE when you had to constantly do shit like 'if navigator.appname = Netscape then do this else if navigator.appname = MSIE then do the same thing differently'.

Just look at HTML5 Test. You'll see Pale Moon scores 429 out of 555. Chromium scores 474. The gap is due to leaving out drafts/experimental/proposed features, Web Components, intentionally left out DRM/WebRTC and other irrelevant shit like Dolby support, speech recognition, VR to name a few.
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Re: Online multi browser testing websites - why don't any seem to include Pale Moon?

Unread post by vannilla » 2021-05-21, 06:47

It might also be that they do not know about it.
Send a mail to them talking about UXP, see what they say.

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Re: Online multi browser testing websites - why don't any seem to include Pale Moon?

Unread post by Moonchild » 2021-05-21, 07:13

I'm sure some of that also has to do with the badmouthing Firefox fanbois have done of our project for over a decade, so people making comparisons don't want to include it.
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Re: Online multi browser testing websites - why don't any seem to include Pale Moon?

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2021-05-21, 10:11

That and they expect mulet or marionette or selenium or headless or whatever operating modes for automated testing framework systems rather and opening the browser and clicking around and you know.. looking at it.

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Re: Online multi browser testing websites - why don't any seem to include Pale Moon?

Unread post by Lunokhod » 2021-09-08, 21:03

Another thing I'd been meaning to do but forgot... reminded by the other topic! Sent this to the 2 sites mentioned above:
"Subject Pale Moon browser
Case Description viewtopic.php?f=65&t=27353
viewtopic.php?f=65&t=26896&p=215835#p215835
Have you considered including Pale Moon browser? It is quite popular, actively developed and many people use it, so it could be helpful for your clients.
The development team are very approachable and can be contacted through the forums, which includes a private message feature."
So if you do get PM'ed by them then that's why. :thumbup:
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Re: Online multi browser testing websites - why don't any seem to include Pale Moon?

Unread post by Lunokhod » 2021-09-10, 02:36

SmartBear said they are waiting for demand to increase for now:
Thank you for reaching out to support. We are always open to suggestions regarding new browsers/devices we could add to our tool but we do so if we have many clients asking for it. So far I am afraid you are the first person mentioning this browser to us. Adding a new browser to the offer means more work with maintenance, selenium integration (if selenium is supported), and extra potential support for the browser on our side -> lots of resources we can spend on keeping and updating browsers that are more popular within our customers.
Please let us know if there is anything else we can assist you with and we will be happy to help.

It was nice of them to reply promptly, and at least it has already raised awareness of Pale Moon with them.
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Re: Online multi browser testing websites - why don't any seem to include Pale Moon?

Unread post by The Squash » 2021-09-10, 20:16

Lunokhod wrote:
2021-09-10, 02:36
SmartBear said they are waiting for demand to increase for now
Well that's easy to fix -- I'll badger them about it too by also sending them mail!

EDIT: I just sent both of them mail and I got automated replies stating that both will reply to my support calls soon. We'll have to see what happens.
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Re: Online multi browser testing websites - why don't any seem to include Pale Moon?

Unread post by Lunokhod » 2021-09-11, 01:58

I think they mean demand from paying customers not enthusiastic Pale Moon users... but on here who can tell, you might be in charge of browser support testing for some big operation. :D
This kind of testing is likely to become more and more relevant and also expand to encompass more browsers in future. So many times in the web compatibility section you see site owners replying we don't test with Pale Moon, yet if no testing suites include it the real answer would be we CAN'T test with Pale Moon.
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576tomoyo

Re: Online multi browser testing websites - why don't any seem to include Pale Moon?

Unread post by 576tomoyo » 2021-09-11, 13:58

xjxyz wrote:
2021-09-10, 20:16
Lunokhod wrote:
2021-09-10, 02:36
SmartBear said they are waiting for demand to increase for now
Well that's easy to fix -- I'll badger them about it too by also sending them mail!

EDIT: I just sent both of them mail and I got automated replies stating that both will reply to my support calls soon. We'll have to see what happens.
Maybe I should chime in too, also pointing out that if they complain about [x] feature being missing (probably WebComponents) that it's because it isn't well drafted/specified how to implement it, something that goes against the very principle of the Internet's original goal. :P

To be fair, years ago, the HTML5 spec was messed with even before it was finalised - video delivery originally had been standardised to use OGG Theora, then Apple refused to support OGG on their devices natively...

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Re: Online multi browser testing websites - why don't any seem to include Pale Moon?

Unread post by vannilla » 2021-09-11, 14:37

576tomoyo wrote:
2021-09-11, 13:58
if they complain about [x] feature being missing
But that's the whole point of their test suite, to let people know what's missing.
If anything, we have to watch out by these services refusing to add <browser X> because it doesn't support "headless mode"/selenium/whatever name they want to use.

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Re: Online multi browser testing websites - why don't any seem to include Pale Moon?

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2021-09-11, 15:22

We would never be accepted because we don't have selenium or another AUTOMATED test suite capability, as vannilla said. As for considering us in browser compatibility tables.. Well, we are just old and insecure Firefox. Right?

I doubt we could even BUY our way into those circles at this point.

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Re: Online multi browser testing websites - why don't any seem to include Pale Moon?

Unread post by The Squash » 2021-09-11, 15:31

As much as you may be right, let's just see what happens, shall we?
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Re: Online multi browser testing websites - why don't any seem to include Pale Moon?

Unread post by vannilla » 2021-09-11, 16:22

xjxyz wrote:
2021-09-11, 15:31
As much as you may be right, let's just see what happens, shall we?
Well, in their reply to Lunokhod, they did write "(if selenium is supported)", so there's a small chance.
On the other hand, they also talk about allocating resources and they can use this excuse to avoid supporting a browser without selenium.
Yet, we also have to consider that current-day desktop Edge and current-day destkop Opera (to name two popular ones) are just Chromium with a different user interface, so any resource given to those two can be easily dropped in favour of at least Pale Moon.

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Re: Online multi browser testing websites - why don't any seem to include Pale Moon?

Unread post by Moonchild » 2021-09-11, 16:24

xjxyz wrote:
2021-09-11, 15:31
As much as you may be right, let's just see what happens, shall we?
i'm pretty sure they will insist on selenium and the likes... and if there's even ONE mozilla fanboi in their circles it's likely wasted effort because we'd get vetoed out.
As for selenium... we won't support it because we simply don't have the manpower to constantly update and maintain for a 3rd party testing suite.
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Re: Online multi browser testing websites - why don't any seem to include Pale Moon?

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2021-09-11, 16:37

I suspect .. again at this point .. even if we met every one of their requirements, requests, demands, one right after another they would still find a reason. Or simply remove us for no real reason later.

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Re: Online multi browser testing websites - why don't any seem to include Pale Moon?

Unread post by BenFenner » 2021-09-13, 15:26

This reminds me of a ticket I created in 2015 for https://caniuse.com

Said ticket:
https://github.com/Fyrd/caniuse/issues/2129

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Re: Online multi browser testing websites - why don't any seem to include Pale Moon?

Unread post by BenFenner » 2021-09-13, 15:31

moonbat wrote:
2021-05-21, 03:12
Just look at HTML5 Test. You'll see Pale Moon scores 429 out of 555.
It seems today it is up to 431 now. :thumbup:

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Re: Online multi browser testing websites - why don't any seem to include Pale Moon?

Unread post by Moonchild » 2021-09-14, 01:21

BenFenner wrote:
2021-09-13, 15:31
It seems today it is up to 431 now. :thumbup:
Yeah because unlike some people we actually do real development ourselves.
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Re: Online multi browser testing websites - why don't any seem to include Pale Moon?

Unread post by Shadeclan » 2021-09-16, 13:18

moonbat wrote:
2021-05-21, 03:12
... Google f***ed things up forever with Chrome by constantly introducing breaking draft specs for everything, and being very lax about enforcing standards compliance, as seen with so many broken sites that work in Chrome but not Pale Moon because Pale Moon follows the published standards for that feature.
Yeah, I'm finding that more and more websites work in Chome (that's how I like to pronounce it :D) but only partly work in Pale Moon or don't work at all. It's like browser sniffing without actually checking. It's pissing me off but I have no idea what to do about it. Everybody seems to be deep into conformity and eschewing anything different, especially opinions and, apparently, browsers.

I'll just keep using Pale Moon as my default browser and switch to Brave when I have to use something based on Chome, I guess. :x

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