Forks, free software, accusations and tempers.

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New Tobin Paradigm

Re: Forks, free software, accusations and tempers.

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2021-04-25, 19:01

Gotta start somewhere. But there is something to be said against change for change sake as well.

See the whole recent campaign I been fostering despite some frustration is that you can START with a basic fork and then maintain it as you learn and as demand dictates and along the way learn more about the technology you employ which could lead you to bigger and better things.

You know why I know it will work even if it isn't as wide spread as it could have been five years ago? Because it is basically what true Mozilla did back in the mid-2000s but we have that advantage of having a whole back catalog to work from. So it should be easier than ever to get your feet wet.

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Re: Forks, free software, accusations and tempers.

Unread post by moonbat » 2021-04-26, 01:22

Cassette wrote:
2021-04-25, 18:59
I just think that it should be more than a clone with a different label.
Well, guess what? I have done exactly that with one of the latest of my published extensions - GetEmAll, a rebranded fork of DownThemAll. It is currently a 'clone with a different label' because other than being targeted at Firefox, the version cloned works perfectly with Pale Moon, and the only change I've made is to remove the 'donate using Paypal' banner and the 'nag for donations after x number of downloads' feature since that goes to the original author and I have no intention of soliciting donations for something I didn't create from scratch.
In its current form, the extension offers everything you could need in a download manager and then some, so it is feature-wise quite perfect.
If and when something breaks in future, it will be my responsibility to fix it, not the original author's. By your reasoning, Pale Moon ought not to exist because as Moonchild said, it and every fork is exactly a 'clone with a different label' at the point of forking.
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Re: Forks, free software, accusations and tempers.

Unread post by Cassette » 2021-04-26, 23:12

moonbat wrote:
2021-04-26, 01:22
By your reasoning, Pale Moon ought not to exist because as Moonchild said, it and every fork is exactly a 'clone with a different label' at the point of forking.
It's like you didn't read what I wrote, but rather characterizations of it. I don't know why I bother. Try reading again, I'm not going to repeat myself.

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Re: Forks, free software, accusations and tempers.

Unread post by Tharthan » 2021-04-27, 00:24

What is the difference, Cassette?

When Pale Moon first came about, Firefox was still a functional browser for someone who cared about the things that this community cares about.

And, as Moonchild said, when it first came about it was "a verbatim copy of Firefox".

Similarly, forks of JustOff's extensions will begin as little more than copies with different branding. But, just as Pale Moon did, the forks in time can develop a life of their own.
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New Tobin Paradigm

Re: Forks, free software, accusations and tempers.

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2021-04-27, 00:41

Cassette wrote:
2021-04-26, 23:12
It's like you didn't read what I wrote, but rather characterizations of it. I don't know why I bother. Try reading again, I'm not going to repeat myself.
Funny, JustOff said nearly the same thing on the Reddit Shithole where he was instantly welcomed as a pillar of the sub-reddit, given a fancy rank tag, and is now protected from any and all criticism. Hey, people may not like me here sometimes but they can express it all they want. Unlike JustOff I can dish it out as well as I can take it AND I obliterate their arguments most every time.

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Re: Forks, free software, accusations and tempers.

Unread post by Cassette » 2021-04-27, 01:16

Pale Moon offered a 64 bit build which Firefox did not. Pale Moon also customized what was built with the browser to reduce resource usage on stuff most people didn't need. How is that a verbatim copy of Firefox? It offered something different.

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Re: Forks, free software, accusations and tempers.

Unread post by moonbat » 2021-04-27, 01:39

Cassette wrote:
2021-04-27, 01:16
Pale Moon offered a 64 bit build which Firefox did not. Pale Moon also customized what was built with the browser to reduce resource usage on stuff most people didn't need. How is that a verbatim copy of Firefox? It offered something different.
Because it didn't have those features on day one, exactly as with any other fork. It was originally just a rebuild with better optimized compiler flags. The 64 bit version and everything else followed much later.
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Re: Forks, free software, accusations and tempers.

Unread post by Cassette » 2021-04-27, 01:48

moonbat wrote:
2021-04-27, 01:39
The 64 bit version and everything else followed much later.
So you're saying that work was done by the new maintainer later? It's almost as though I already addressed that very point more than once several posts ago. See how repeating myself doesn't do any good?

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Re: How to export passwords to new profile?

Unread post by moonbat » 2021-04-27, 01:56

Cassette wrote:
2021-04-24, 22:35

But were those forks only changes in name or in actual functionality? If these forks of JustOff's forks have their own work done by the new maintainer, I have no issue with it. If not, it's just copying his upstream work and slapping a new label on it. Doesn't seem right to me if that is the case.
Exactly what were you repeating yourself over again other than parroting that it's somehow shocking and horrible that a fork is identical to what was forked from at the point of forking?
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Re: Forks, free software, accusations and tempers.

Unread post by Cassette » 2021-04-27, 01:58

moonbat wrote:
2021-04-27, 01:56
Exactly what were you repeating yourself over again other than parroting that it's somehow shocking and horrible that a fork is identical to what was forked from at the point of forking?
I'd love to see a quote where I said that, because I never did. I was right about the characterization thing and you've just proven it.

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Re: Forks, free software, accusations and tempers.

Unread post by moonbat » 2021-04-27, 02:12

I did read what you wrote. If you can explain the highlighted part in the light of the fact that OF COURSE a fork will be identical to what it is forked from when created, then enlighten us by all means sans any 'characterization'.

Or do you think it is a wonderful idea to be dependent on a single person for the whole AMO archive given he has already thrown a hissy fit and taken his toys away from here after breaking user trust with his actions?
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Re: How to export passwords to new profile?

Unread post by Cassette » 2021-04-27, 02:23

Cassette wrote:
2021-04-24, 21:38
Taking a piece of software and changing nothing but the name and branding seems unethical to me even if it's completely legal. If you are going to maintain the software outside of the work done by the software you've forked from, fine, but if you're only copying the commits by it, what are you actually providing?
That was from my very first post in the thread. It's practically the entire thing. See how I say I think it's fine if you're actually going to maintain it and not just copy the forked project's work? I'm not saying the new fork maintainers are just going to copy JustOff's work and do nothing else. I'm saying IF they do that, I think it's wrong. It's my opinion and I have a right to it. It doesn't affect anyone else's freedom or any other nonsense like that. It's an opinion.

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Re: Forks, free software, accusations and tempers.

Unread post by moonbat » 2021-04-27, 02:57

Cassette wrote:
2021-04-27, 02:23
I'm saying IF they do that, I think it's wrong.
The point is how do you know in advance or why would you even assume that and then hide behind 'it's my opinion' ? Who here other than JustOff himself has done this - i.e. forked an old extension and refused to make any changes to it in response to feedback?
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Re: Forks, free software, accusations and tempers.

Unread post by Cassette » 2021-04-27, 06:40

moonbat wrote:
2021-04-27, 02:57
The point is how do you know in advance or why would you even assume that and then hide behind 'it's my opinion' ?
I'm not assuming anything. If I were assuming, I wouldn't have said "if". As a programmer you should be familiar with "if then" statements. I'm not hiding behind it being an opinion. It has been suggested that I'm somehow denying someone their rights by disagreeing. That would be like claiming someone is denying my free speech rights because they are disagreeing with me on this issue. I don't mind disagreement, just don't "read into" or mischaracterize what I'm saying.

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Re: Forks, free software, accusations and tempers.

Unread post by Moonchild » 2021-04-27, 10:04

Cassette wrote:
2021-04-27, 01:16
Pale Moon offered a 64 bit build which Firefox did not. Pale Moon also customized what was built with the browser to reduce resource usage on stuff most people didn't need. How is that a verbatim copy of Firefox? It offered something different.
But the fact that it was forked, according to you and JustOff, would require "significant changes". The code itself was 100% the same and should therefore, according to you "not have been forked". Just building it for a different architecture didn't change that, neither did configuring it differently and setting a different home page. In fact, I just pointed to Mozilla for downloading of the source initially because there was no difference -- At all -- and I didn't have any infra to host a verbatim copy ready.
But it was most definitely forked at that time.
So I don't see how you can accuse us of not reading your posts when it seems to be you who isn't reading or at the very least not processing what you're reading.
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Re: Forks, free software, accusations and tempers.

Unread post by Cassette » 2021-04-27, 10:59

I never claimed it needed "significant changes". That phrase was not used by me nor was a phrase of similar intent ever used by me. I also never said an extension should "not have been forked". That's no quote of mine. Funny how the quotes cited aren't even of me, but somehow they apply to me. Yeah, this isn't an honest discussion. I'm not interested in discussing it further.

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Re: Forks, free software, accusations and tempers.

Unread post by Moonchild » 2021-04-27, 11:17

Sure, have a good one.
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Re: Forks, free software, accusations and tempers.

Unread post by vannilla » 2021-04-27, 11:39

Talk about backtracking :think:

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Re: Forks, free software, accusations and tempers.

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2021-04-27, 12:05

Surest sign of a weak mind and dishonest soul. Clarification or crystalization of a position is one thing but backtracking without an admitting a mistake or not taking responsibility for a former position clearly stated is quite another.

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Re: Forks, free software, accusations and tempers.

Unread post by ron_1 » 2021-04-27, 13:50

I don't understand the big brewhaha on this issue. It seems pretty simple, that at the fork off point, it (the fork) is an identical clone. Well, duh. Then as somebody else has mentioned earlier in this thread, this new fork has a new/different maintainer than the original. At the point where this new fork gets new users, the maintainer of the new fork will get pull requests and issues sent to him/her that perhaps the original maintainer won't. So the new fork will get development that the original won't. And also the new maintainer may add something new down the line that the original developer doesn't. Ditto for taking something away. So as time passes, "it will be more than a clone with a different label," to quote from a post in this thread. That's the beauty of open source software.

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