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Forks, free software, accusations and tempers.

Post by coffeebreak » 2021-04-22, 21:52

Moderator note: Split off from "How to export passwords to new profile" for being a total off-topic tangent.
Moonchild wrote:
2021-04-22, 17:45
un-vetted sources
Preliminary note...
I realize, and very much appreciate that extensions on Phoebus receive some vetting.
But it was never my impression that this vetting was meant to displace the user's personal judgment or responsibility (and am surprised that it's lack may come to be be treated as a reason to withold browser support, which it never has been thus far):
New Tobin Paradigm wrote: The vetting of add-ons that land on the Add-ons Site is limited to casual function testing to ensure the initial submission doesn't bust the browser, quick looksee to make sure it doesn't do anything terrible like unwarranted harvesting of data or strict illegal activity, that sort of thing. After that periodically testing for the same on a reactionary basis.


Moonchild wrote:
2021-04-22, 17:45
Explicitly using extensions from un-vetted sources while alternatives from APMO exist, though, may have some consequences in case you have trouble with the browser in terms of how much help you'll get. So there certainly is an inherent reason to switch to it if you expect support.
Then is it planned to deny browser support to anyone who uses an extension hosted somewhere other than Phoebus?
(in the manner that you currently deny support to users of NoScript)
If so, why?

I realize that changes are planned to the extension install manifest, such that current extensions will break, or not install, unless they are modified to use the new format.

But if the documentation is posted for this format, as mentioned in the linked post, won't extension developers/maintainers (or forkers, or users) be able to adjust for this change no matter where the extension is hosted ? Wouldn't use of the validator be vetting enough to rule out support requests coming from non-updated extensions ?

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Re: How to export passwords to new profile?

Post by Moonchild » 2021-04-22, 22:43

coffeebreak wrote:
2021-04-22, 21:52
Then is it planned to deny browser support to anyone who uses an extension hosted somewhere other than Phoebus?
Nothing as black&white as that. But it will influence responses in some cases.
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Re: How to export passwords to new profile?

Post by coffeebreak » 2021-04-22, 23:04

Moonchild wrote:
2021-04-22, 22:43
it will influence responses in some cases.
Ah.
To rephrase, is it planned to deny browser support to anyone who uses an extension hosted outside Phoebus "while an alternative from APMO" exists ?

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Re: How to export passwords to new profile?

Post by Moonchild » 2021-04-23, 04:42

Same answer.
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Re: How to export passwords to new profile?

Post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2021-04-23, 08:24

He is trying to trap you into saying that we are going all Modern Mozilla with a walled garden-only approch and implying our Add-ons Site and us ourselves are bias and therefor less trustworthy because we are going to favor hosted extensions over externals or independents.. treating them as second class.

Such a JustOffian tactic. At least JustOff created/forked something.. What has coffeebreak done? Oh yeah, nothing.

In any case, it isn't going to work. Any Pale Moon extension can be installed from any source provided they are not known to be suspect. That of course is a case by case thing and would involve the blocklist along historical lines not 2010s Mozilla lines.

Regardless it is extensions that support the application NOT the other way around. Just because some of us who work on Pale Moon and UXP its self ALSO have some extensions we also work on doesn't mean we implicitly support ALL extensions ever created on an application project level ourselves nor does it mean that externals and independents are second class in comparison to hosted or our personally created/forked extensions.

With that said, because a hosted extension IS hosted it does mean we still have to check them out because our name is still at ths top of the page so extra scrutiny is used. It also has increased in response to recent shit being pulled by his knight in shining armour and audits of historical offenders and will be expanded to per-release reviews not SIMPLY the trust first stance it was in December.
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Re: How to export passwords to new profile?

Post by coffeebreak » 2021-04-23, 09:57

Moonchild wrote:
2021-04-23, 04:42
Same answer.
It would be useful to users if you specified the criteria for denying browser support.

But in any case, thanks for responding to my post.

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Re: How to export passwords to new profile?

Post by vannilla » 2021-04-23, 11:01

coffeebreak wrote:
2021-04-23, 09:57
It would be useful to users if you specified the criteria for denying browser support.
I believe "using the latest stable release of the browser, not having NoScript or other known problematic extensions installed, making sure the rest of the system is up to date and provide troubleshooting informations when asking for help" are the criteria to receive official support.
Community support is usually more lax.

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Re: How to export passwords to new profile?

Post by moonbat » 2021-04-23, 11:37

Well, both kinds of support are available here, so..
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Re: How to export passwords to new profile?

Post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2021-04-23, 11:52

Just stop indulging him. His loyalties and aims these days are all too clear. He is one ban away from joining the lot at reddit or MSFN if he isn't already an agent.

Mark my words.
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Re: How to export passwords to new profile?

Post by Moonchild » 2021-04-23, 11:54

coffeebreak wrote:
2021-04-23, 09:57
It would be useful to users if you specified the criteria for denying browser support.
I won't do that because being as insisting as you are now to me looks like you're just trying to trap me into making a statement that can easily be used to call me a whole slew of names and paint me/us black. I know how this works, and being more specific in an ambiguous situation is both incorrect AND leading to false assumptions&conclusions by people reading it.
My answer is as specific as it is going to get because I can't be more specific about it.
Besides, I'm not in the position to decide whether others will provide support or not; that's entirely up to them. I'm just certain that it will have consequences to varying degrees.
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Re: How to export passwords to new profile?

Post by Lootyhoof » 2021-04-23, 12:08

As an aside, we do have external add-ons linked to on the Add-ons Site (see most of RealityRipple's add-ons for example) that meet certain criteria and certainly have no plans to stop that. As these are directly linked from our site the Add-ons Team DO vet these external sources to make sure they're reputable.

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Re: How to export passwords to new profile?

Post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2021-04-23, 12:29

Problematic extensions being a reason to not extend application support to a user has nothing to do with them being hosted or not. Not really, except as far as we can deactivate the listing pending a resolution from the extension developer in special and serious cases.

Regardless, there is a reason we want verification of an end user's problem with a clean profile. It allows us to firmly establish what scope an issue has. If it is reproducable with a clean profile then it is clearly not an extension problem. If not then it MIGHT be an extension problem OR a preferences issue because we have eleminated stock default state of just the application as a possibility.

At that point then we need the user to try with extensions disabled (maybe even safe mode) so we can rule out extensions completely. If the problem goes away then really our job on the application support side is complete as a WORKSFORME situation. But often we want to know which extension is misbehaving so we often stick with it so if there is anything we need to do Phoebus/blocklist wise or just need to tag the dev about it.

The thing about NoScript and a few others that completely excludes any application support is its unique effect on profiles it is exposed to long after it was disabled and removed and it is universally known to cause issues simply by proximity. It is by definition a special case. One we don't want to deal with. Period.

Regardless, it is not the resposibility on an application project level to provide technical support on a specific extension level. That is the job of an extension developer. Our job is to either confirm or exclude an extension as being a cause for an issue in an application.

There you go coffeebreak. All nice and neatly packaged that answers your questions (without the associated traps sprung and implied implications, of course) and once again restates policy that hadn't changed in five years that you are pretending did.

As an aside, I should formally write this up on dpmo as a support guidelines piece with info from the troubleshooting post. Maybe make a new category.. Policy. Have to add a few redirects tho.
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Re: How to export passwords to new profile?

Post by coffeebreak » 2021-04-23, 14:46

New Tobin Paradigm wrote:
2021-04-23, 12:29
neatly packaged that answers your questions ... and ... restates policy that hadn't changed in five years
Yes it does answer the questions. Thanks.

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Re: How to export passwords to new profile?

Post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2021-04-23, 15:31

Lootyhoof wrote:
2021-04-23, 12:08
As an aside, we do have external add-ons linked to on the Add-ons Site (see most of RealityRipple's add-ons for example) that meet certain criteria and certainly have no plans to stop that. As these are directly linked from our site the Add-ons Team DO vet these external sources to make sure they're reputable.
Indeed, I want to provide submission of externals by users in the next major version of Phoebus. They have been and are reviewed like any other extension and in addition MUST provide AUS service to be listed. The ONLY drawback to externals is that they can't be searched for or installed via the Add-ons Manager integration because they don't physically exist on our service.
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Re: How to export passwords to new profile?

Post by JustOff » 2021-04-24, 18:21

I have a small warning for those who may want to publish copies of my extensions, which differ from the originals only by changed branding, given that after migration from APMO to GitHub, I was deprived of the opportunity to list my extensions as external.

Although it formally does not violate the license, the one who releases the fork of a live project, without making any real contribution, still acts like a petty thief. So think twice, whether you want such fame.

This article is not directly related, but also worth reading: Forking Protocol: Why, When, and How to Fork an Open Source Project.

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Re: How to export passwords to new profile?

Post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2021-04-24, 18:35

That isn't exactly true. CAA and Ublock are still listed as externals.

As for your claim that one has to make significant changes to fork code else it is stolen.. That is total bullshit. There is no such requirement in any globally accepted OSS license on this planet.

However, let's play this game of yours for a second. Starting with how you often ignore feature requests such as Basilisk/IceWeasel or prelem Borealis support. Maybe try for a few specific examples for CAA where you wouldn't also archive extensions on atbn OR how you refuse to re-scan metadata and correct the min and max versions in the sqlite database and account for license info in the scraped 2014 additions I gave you.

Not to mention, the FACT that you have several extensions you forked that do not substantually deviate from the original Firefox versions. These few and many others that I could list just shows the poorly thoughtout gambit you are trying to pull here and deff reaffirms the sheer depth of your own hypocrisy.

Indeed, shouldn't you clean your own house according to opinions in this random editoral, that happens to align with the position you taking for the first time only TODAY and have never previously expressed, before trying to force them upon the core community you have already wronged?

Don't you just love how JustOff now assumes the position of supreme moral authority on open source code and the decree handed down is literally against contributing to a rich and vibrant extension ecosystem which is needed for the continued heath and well being of the Project. You see he wants to make forking Firefox extensions bad so we have to reverse course to conform to HIS whims. How sad that he can't face his own irrelevance with a little more dignity or simply act in good faith to be an agent of his own salvation.
Last edited by New Tobin Paradigm on 2021-04-24, 19:24, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: How to export passwords to new profile?

Post by vannilla » 2021-04-24, 19:10

This article is not directly related, but also worth reading: Forking Protocol: Why, When, and How to Fork an Open Source Project.
Off-topic:
That article is extremely misguided and completely misses the point of open/free-as-in-freedom licenses.
In fact, the article is so terrible I ask people to not read it at all.

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Re: How to export passwords to new profile?

Post by Moonchild » 2021-04-24, 19:59

JustOff wrote:
2021-04-24, 18:21
I have a small warning for those who may want to publish copies of my extensions
...
So think twice, whether you want such fame.
I'm terribly disappointed that you came back in here to attempt and stop what is necessary for our extension ecosystem.

Your stance is wrong by the mere fact that forking will be required to have the extensions be accessible as part of our community efforts to provide everything users might want from the browser and its extensions. By your own doing and insistence to leave and take what was a significant number of extensions with you. Others have simply stepped up and filled the gaps you left in your rage.
That in itself is reason enough to fork; I remind that it was your own decision to distance yourself from our project and community, and clearly users are not going to accept the added risk and hassle of having to source their extensions elsewhere than a trusted and easily-accessed add-ons website. If that was the case then these forks would not have been made.

In fact, if you want to play that card you are going against the very spirit of open source licensing that should not in any way (including morally/socially!) restrict the freedom of the use of the covered code.

If you didn't want others to have the right to use code that you wrote or you yourself used under an open source license, then you should not have written or forked open source code.
The freedom that is inherent with FOSS also means that someone can publish the exact same thing you made under a different name. It happens all the time, and by definition tends to be the case when a fork is new. Shouting "thief" in that context is not only very petty, but laughable as well.
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Re: How to export passwords to new profile?

Post by Baloo » 2021-04-24, 20:25

JustOff wrote:
2021-04-24, 18:21
I have a small warning for those who may want to publish copies of my extensions, which differ from the originals only by changed branding, given that after migration from APMO to GitHub, I was deprived of the opportunity to list my extensions as external.

Although it formally does not violate the license, the one who releases the fork of a live project, without making any real contribution, still acts like a petty thief. So think twice, whether you want such fame.

This article is not directly related, but also worth reading: Forking Protocol: Why, When, and How to Fork an Open Source Project.
If you're not interested in actually supporting free and open source software projects, but rather attempting to gain control of them, then we don't need your extensions frankly. Stop scaring off other actual contributors with your babble. You've already shown here on the forums you don't respect proper security measures or users choices, or the infrastructure choices of the maintainers of this project: viewtopic.php?f=46&t=26204&p=209112#p209112
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Re: How to export passwords to new profile?

Post by Tharthan » 2021-04-24, 20:49

JustOff wrote:
2021-04-24, 18:21
Although it formally does not violate the license, the one who releases the fork of a live project, without making any real contribution, still acts like a petty thief. So think twice, whether you want such fame.
This just comes off as sour grapes to me, to be frank.

Many people want the relatively assured security and the confidence that the Pale Moon Add-ons Site offers. Given that your add-ons are no longer operating within that system, it is no surprise that many would wish for add-ons with the same functionality to be operating within that system.
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