it seems to be all about chrome

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Re: it seems to be all about chrome

Unread post by Lunokhod » 2021-02-04, 20:32

Epiphany / Gnome Web (a Linux browser) isn't Chrome, it's based on Apple's Webkit and is a GUI browser. It works reasonably too, showing this forum, although it wasn't playing videos on YouTube or Vimeo, and froze scrolling down a Twitter page halfway, but did show FaceBook, from a quick test. I think I might be missing some gstreamer package, or perhaps there was some setting to open them in another video player, I didn't really explore that too much.
Wait, it's all Ohio? Always has been...

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Re: it seems to be all about chrome

Unread post by user88818 » 2021-02-05, 08:29

Moonbird and everyone here all I can say is wow. I just got a lot of interesting information about the past the present and the future and the work it takes to make a browser.

When I started this thread I was just frustrated because I want a browser just like pale moon and the day I joined I was so excited (yeah who gets this excited over a browser but I do)

And also the reason why I was ranting it seems to be all about chrome I can't stand a monopoly where the little guy or for that matter absolutely anyone outside their circle can't join in. The net is supposed to be a universal language not controlled. It's the politics its chrome all the things they seem to stand for that caused me to just start ranting.

Also I really want to stay with pale moon and I'm going to try. Yeah little things don't work here and there and the browser bogs down time to time but it's still beautiful. version 29 I lost another one of my extensions Zoom page 15.8 is dead… The replacement isn't quite as nice but I can try it I will switch to 29 in the near future. The sites that were broken remain broken even using 29. Things must be just so chrome it makes me puke

And I also liked hearing you guys talking about how other browsers the chrome clones there everywhere. Anyway I better keep this short I still think this team is the best team and I'm going to use this browser until I can't …

if it's okay one day I might come back and ask for help…I hope everybody is safe and I wish I could contribute but I'm just a browser user I'm not so great at fixing them.

The very best to everyone

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Re: it seems to be all about chrome

Unread post by riiis » 2021-02-05, 19:01

user88818 wrote:
2021-02-04, 03:08
I was using 13 or so Firefox extensions that are being knocked out one by one as pale moon advances and pale moon has nothing to replace them.
With the new [Pale Moon] version 29, I personally get no improvements but I'm losing my Firefox extensions. Some of the best extensions were made a long time ago for Firefox before they went WebKit. The extensions that are made for Pale Moon in my opinion are simply not as good and not as many.
Note that the extensions that are made for current versions of Firefox-- these extensions also appear to be not as good and not as many as extensions made for prior versions of Firefox [and which older Firefox extensions, ironically and to-the-contrary, may be compatible, and thus usable, with current versions of Pale Moon]. So your opinion that "extensions that are made for Pale Moon ... are simply not as good and not as many" as extensions made for prior versions of Firefox-- this argument/opinion appears somewhat moot (a "strawman" argument).

Note also your opinion that extensions made for Pale Moon are simply not as good as old Firefox extensions-- this view is ludicrous and more than a little inaccurate. The vast majority of Pale Moon extensions appear to be direct forks of related Firefox extensions or derived from Firefox extensions. Furthermore, these Pale Moon extensions may include code changes required or recommended to fix security vulnerabilities, or changes in web standards, and display changes for popular websites. On the other hand, old Firefox extensions, on which development has ceased, most certainly have less of these required or recommended improvements.
I'm not a browser designer but through the years being a computer nerd ...
Some Firefox extensions require only simple changes to run flawlessly on Pale Moon (such as adding the Pale Moon GUID to the install.rdf file and perhaps the chrome.manifest file). As a computer nerd, you should be able to make these and other simple changes yourself, and perhaps share your work by submitting a fork of the fixed Firefox extension(s) to the Pale Moon add-on site. Alternatively, you might want to post your list of 13 failed Firefox extensions on this forum (in "browser extensions" category?). Forum viewers would then have an opportunity to address, specifically, the issues you raise.

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Re: it seems to be all about chrome

Unread post by gepus » 2021-02-05, 23:07

riiis wrote:
2021-02-05, 19:01
Note also your opinion that extensions made for Pale Moon are simply not as good as old Firefox extensions-- this view is ludicrous and more than a little inaccurate.
I fully agree with the above statement!

However, some forked extensions don't behave like the original. They might be more appropriate/better for other use cases than those the user was familiarized with or expects. I will give only a single example if you don't mind - the fork of Cookie Controller.
As a result the subjective perception of the user could be like that above.

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Re: it seems to be all about chrome

Unread post by Moonchild » 2021-02-06, 00:46

Nobody is stopping anyone from making an -exact- behavioural clone, if they don't like the way the first forker did their forking.
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Re: it seems to be all about chrome

Unread post by user88818 » 2021-02-06, 11:33

I never learned how to modify browser files that's not what I learned. Very few people I think learn about modify them.I'm just good at running a PC and maintaining it hardware and software. My computer is 100% bulletproof it's impossible to go down without an instant repair. But I know nothing about modifying browsers or extensions

I can send the files possibly to the extensions category. That could be a good idea or just keep trying pale moon extensions

For me personally the customization is just something I like. I also think I don't like change I'm so use to the Firefox extensions and I like them because they're so familiar.I think that's fairly normal you just want things to stay the same
in this ever-changing universe. but I realize it seems impossible… That's why I'm using pale moon I'm hanging on to the past otherwise I would've switched long ago..I will just try to get by the best I can just like everyone else before the eventual change has to happen. I won't even use Windows 10 I simply don't like it.

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Re: it seems to be all about chrome

Unread post by Trippynet » 2021-02-06, 11:55

Must admit, these days I do usually use two browsers. Pale Moon remains my primary browser for 95% of sites, but I do also regularly use Vivaldi as a second browser for sites such as Google Maps and Facebook as although they do work for me in Pale Moon, they run very slowly due to how heavily they target Chrome's engine.

It's a pity, but I do find it the best compromise personally.

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Re: it seems to be all about chrome

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2021-02-06, 12:18

I keep most big tech services in edge but do all my work in Borealis.
He tasks me. He tasks me and I shall have him.
I'll chase him round the moons of Nibia and round the Antares maelstrom and round perdition's flames before I give him up.. Prepare to alter course.

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Re: it seems to be all about chrome

Unread post by Tharthan » 2021-02-06, 21:20

Off-topic:
Moonbird wrote:
2021-02-04, 08:11
the best politicans
I always find that notion hilarious. Nearly all politicians beyond the most local level (and even a fair number on that level) are manipulative tricksters. It has more or less always been like that.

Why anyone would opt to adopt something because capital city Mayor So-and-so or Prime Minister Such-and-such adopts it is beyond me. They are opportunists and tricksters by nature. Why ought the software/Web projects/companies that they deem currently strategically useful to back matter at all to the everyman? Their support almost certainly does not come from a place of earnestness.
Moonbird wrote:
2021-02-04, 08:11
In this complex field of web browsing, you automatically get dependant on the big players.
It tends to be more of a problem if one yields to peer pressure, and/or if one is the type to follow popular trends just because they happen to be trends.

If you adopt something, adopt it because it resonates with you/you agree with it/you support its goals. If that thing happens to be popular, fantastic! If not, that ought not to be an issue.
Moonraker wrote:
2021-02-04, 11:00
chrome lookalikes [...] are an issue too and only help the monopoly
For certain. I shake my head when websites present Chromium variants as if they were truly different browsers from Google Chrome.
Moonchild wrote:
2021-02-04, 11:46
Netflix? Not at all important.
I agree with you, but I don't think most average people these days would, unfortunately.

For some stupid reason, a lot of people who watched eight to twelve hours of television per day have completely ditched television and now only use Netflix. Since Netflix is available beyond one's television, they are now spoilt to the point of wanting to be able to watch it everywhere and on any thing (that is connected to the Internet).

So people like that (which number far, far too many) would probably consider a lack of Netflix support to be an absolute dealbreaker.
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Re: it seems to be all about chrome

Unread post by Moonchild » 2021-02-06, 22:01

Tharthan wrote:
2021-02-06, 21:20
So people like that (which number far, far too many) would probably consider a lack of Netflix support to be an absolute dealbreaker.
As long as Netflix still supports Silverlight, people can use it (and in better quality than html5 video with Google DRM, at that!).
If Netflix drops Silverlight support, then those users will either have to use a dedicated "app" (or different browser) to watch netflix (not a big deal) or we will simply lose them as users if they prioritize a single site over general use. A percentage of them might also drop Netflix as a result and watch their TV series elsewhere.
But that still doesn't change, at all, the importance of single-site compatibility for an application's general use from a dev point of view, no matter how popular it is.
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Re: it seems to be all about chrome

Unread post by Moonraker » 2021-02-06, 22:43

micwoj92 wrote:
2021-02-04, 11:14
New Tobin Paradigm wrote:
2021-02-04, 11:08
We are all that is left.
https://www.netsurf-browser.org/
is really good for REALLY, REALLY lightweight browsing, basically terminal based browser on steroids

:crazy:
That is an old one,like amikit and ibrowse,,netsurf even ran on an amiga 500.... :clap: :clap: ...I am nearly 50 years old and you can't beat a bit of prehistoric computing. :D :D :D
Upup focal fossa 32bit puppy linux user.

Pale moon 29.4.1

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Re: it seems to be all about chrome

Unread post by FarlanderCraft » 2021-03-17, 11:55

I thought Firefox was still Gecko.

I don't remember it using any code from Chromium.

And Safari is based on WebKit (Still Apple, but open-source), and there are a lot of WebKit-based browsers if you're a Linux user, as well as the qtwebkit project :) .

There are still a few non-Chromium browsers left. Otter Browser is based on WebKit and built to resemble Opera in its golden days, for example.

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Re: it seems to be all about chrome

Unread post by athenian200 » 2021-03-17, 15:28

Well, the majority of applications are built on Electron and the majority of websites are designed for Chromium/WebKit, so... yes, the majority of the modern Internet is not optimized for anything else. I started to experience similar problems with Internet Explorer and old Edge a few years before I became a Pale Moon user. The main reason to use a non-Chromium/WebKit browser at this point is because you resent being forced to use Chromium enough to struggle with an alternative, and you value freedom, or privacy, or something other than raw utility. But if you're in a situation where you need something that just works and principles are not a factor, then well... it's kind of obvious what you have to use.

So, naturally you might be wondering how to keep yourself in the habit of using Pale Moon when the temptation to switch to a Chromium-based browser is always there. Well, for me the answer was to switch to an operating system that isn't capable of running a Chromium-based browser and also struggles with Rust. Which effectively makes this the best browser I have available without switching machines, and therefore incentivizes me to make do with it as much as possible. It also incentivizes the use of XUL applications and extensions heavily because those are cross-platform and will run without modification as long as the base UXP platform works.

Additionally, I made it more inconvenient for myself by making my backup machines use old square monitors with low resolution while having two fairly decent monitors on this one, so I have to struggle with a small viewport when forced to use Chromium. That's part of how I incentivize myself to use Chromium less. You have to structure your environment to dissuade you from it as much as possible, otherwise it becomes your first choice for everything because the forces pushing towards it are so strong.

It helps strengthen your disgust with Chromium if every time a website requires it, you have to get off your butt and switch machines to something with an inferior or uncomfortable experience. It makes you think about all those times and associate Chromium with greater discomfort and inconvenience.
FarlanderCraft wrote:
2021-03-17, 11:55
I thought Firefox was still Gecko.

I don't remember it using any code from Chromium.

And Safari is based on WebKit (Still Apple, but open-source), and there are a lot of WebKit-based browsers if you're a Linux user, as well as the qtwebkit project :) .

There are still a few non-Chromium browsers left. Otter Browser is based on WebKit and built to resemble Opera in its golden days, for example.
Chromium is a WebKit fork, so there's not much difference. Firefox uses something called Servo, which I think is a lot like a Rust-language implementation of WebKit (though don't quote me on that, I could be wrong). There's not a substantial difference in the design philosophy of Firefox and Chrome at this point, they offer very similar things. Even if Google were to ditch Chromium and make Firefox the default browser on Android, nothing would substantially change. Firefox now offers little value beyond being a project for computer science students to hack around on and a showcase for what the Rust language can do.
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Re: it seems to be all about chrome

Unread post by mr tribute » 2021-03-20, 10:00

It's super easy; for me at least. The Chromium UI sucks to such a degree that I honestly can't stand it when I don't absolutely have to use it. It's clear the Chromium UI wasn't designed primarily for browsing, but for consuming content from a handful of sites.

Pale Moon UI advantages (Chromium aka "media player" disadvantages):

Mouse travel (and eye travel) to tabs below address bar compared to tabs above address bar (tabs should be as close to content as possible)
There is a reason the minimal menu bar was invented. It gives access/info with minimal clicks
In bookmarks menu, the menu will open centered on last used bookmark, not so in Chromium - have to scroll to last used bookmark in a menu
Keep track of downloads without a thick bar at the bottom of the screen
Have a dedicated search field
Easy access to History
Easy access to Add-ons
Add-ons that actually bring value to the browsing experience
A Preferences UI that doesn't suck
No telemetry
Delete history on close (Brave has this too)
Load state and link addresses in status bar (and other things) - and if you don't like the status bar show them as pop-ups instead
Doesn't eat all your RAM
User friendly: settings and extensions can be easily be saved
On Linux the font quality that can be achieved in Pale Moon (and Firefox) is superior to what can be achieved in Chromium

The Web browser should be a Web browser, not a Netflix app. I don't know where the Chromium UI would make sense. On an iPad maybe.

The reason Chromium gets away with it is because most people don't need a Web browser. They need a desktop "app" that can access the Web, but most importantly an app that works with Facebook, Instagram and YouTube.

I think Chromium should be renamed from Web browser to Web app.

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Re: it seems to be all about chrome

Unread post by moonbat » 2021-03-20, 10:30

mr tribute wrote:
2021-03-20, 10:00
I don't know where the Chromium UI would make sense
Definitely not anywhere on a desktop with keyboard and mouse. Ever since the general public switched to using mobiles in larger numbers to access the net than desktops, and aided along by Chrome and especially Windows 8+, nobody cares about customizability or catering to power users on the desktop. You shall use a touchscreen optimized UI and you will like it because what other choice do you have?
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Re: it seems to be all about chrome

Unread post by silent_guy1234 » 2021-03-20, 10:58

moonbat wrote:
2021-03-20, 10:30
Definitely not anywhere on a desktop with keyboard and mouse. Ever since the general public switched to using mobiles in larger numbers to access the net than desktops, and aided along by Chrome and especially Windows 8+, nobody cares about customizability or catering to power users on the desktop. You shall use a touchscreen optimized UI and you will like it because what other choice do you have?
What about desktops with touch screen and touch screen laptops?

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Re: it seems to be all about chrome

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2021-03-20, 11:06

mr tribute wrote:
2021-03-20, 10:00
The reason Chromium gets away with it is because most people don't need a Web browser. They need a desktop "app" that can access the Web[...]
So AOL?
He tasks me. He tasks me and I shall have him.
I'll chase him round the moons of Nibia and round the Antares maelstrom and round perdition's flames before I give him up.. Prepare to alter course.

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Re: it seems to be all about chrome

Unread post by moonbat » 2021-03-20, 11:13

Yep, AOL. It is telling how this generation of internet users compares to the one that ditched AOL for the open internet at the first opportunity.
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Re: it seems to be all about chrome

Unread post by mr tribute » 2021-03-21, 00:08

The modern human (Homo tactus speculum) has taken the Chromium UI to its logical conclusion - it's unnecessary and distracting.

Just pin your favorite sites to your taskbar and/or start menu. The World Wide Web has been reduced to apps, just like on smartphones. It's convenient, there is an app for that - never open the browser. Since browsers are less than ideal on touch smartphones I don't mind the appification of the Web on mobile.

However, the modern human doesn't want different paradigms for mobile and desktop so they welcome webapps and PWAs and are ready to ditch the browser on the desktop too. Just "install" the PWA and access your "app" easily without the unnecessary browser chrome. It's "modern" and even old tech reviewers embrace this.

In a somewhat unexpected twist of events Mozilla recently announced that they stop PWA support in Firefox because of lack of resources. I guess $420 million per year can go a long way, but PWA support is off limits even with that kind of money. Firefox probably lost a few more users. I don't think Mozilla really cares because Firefox is just another product in its "grand" portfolio of products funded by Google.

Google loves/needs its little companion company Mozilla so much that I don't think Mozilla would get more than 25 % of the Google money anywhere else.

https://www.theregister.com/2020/08/14/ ... le_search/

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Re: it seems to be all about chrome

Unread post by Pelican » 2021-03-21, 00:48

It is all about "target market".

Amusement devices to entertain you while walking in front of a bus or when wondering why the guy across from you in the train or the waiting room is looking at you slyly.

Anyone researching anything, writing anything or just shopping online will always choose a desktop computer if one is around.

Recently I have been testing the latest Android and iPhone and find them most awkward. Trying to type in a known URL is very awkward, even without fat fingers. But I did notice some differences between the two that I did test... Android has a better keyboard layout for urls but the iPhone keyboard is more advanced to when it comes to interpreting keystrokes.

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