How long will Pale Moon last?

[Moonchild]

My remarks about the "old and insecure" mantra wasn't directed at you, but a more generic remark about what is happening in general that influences people to get involved/not involved with us.

Off-topic:
Mozilla's demise is entirely its own doing and not necessarily related to pressure from the Chrome corner. They have abandoned what set them apart from others in their chase to be a Chrome clone, trying to offload as much as possible to other libs, and above all keeping as much money flowing in as possible through various deals, instead of actually following their own manifest and publicly stated goals, like, fore example, putting users first.

[90Obadiah]

My remarks about the "old and insecure" mantra wasn't directed at you, but a more generic remark about what is happening in general that influences people to get involved/not involved with us.

In my experience the "old and insecure" mantra/disinformation doesn't influences as much, if at all, as the Branding violation issue

Examples:
(1) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19410928
(2) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20199947

[New Tobin Paradigm]

Yeah and that has been overblown. See: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=18256

And there was a good week or two where massive harassment by them and their followers happened. It also plays into the old and insecure narritive because they claimed they wanted to use system libs for the reason that all of ours are old and insecure. Which of course is horse shit.

Here is what was said by them about us which I summed up in one line on IRC.. I could likely find the original bits but that is work I don't want to do.

Old Firefox, insecure, Biggots, we also don't exist on gentoo, Rai-chan says I am absurd, we are also a cartel and the mafia, garbage, Just Mozilla, random fork of an ancient version of Firefox

[Sajadi]

old... insecure... This gets SO boring

And what is even more funny? That people who complain and try to demonize Pale Moon are always on the side of Mozilla... while ignoring Mozilla's own bad mantra which is called... morality deprived... AND sell-out

But i guess as long as Mozilla calls itself "FOSS" - There will always be people defending them, no matter how more worse and ridiculous their actions are becoming on their quest to become "Chrome- and simple-users dream-browser"

[Tharthan]

Off-topic:
Mozilla's demise is entirely its own doing and not necessarily related to pressure from the Chrome corner. They have abandoned what set them apart from others in their chase to be a Chrome clone, trying to offload as much as possible to other libs, and above all keeping as much money flowing in as possible through various deals, instead of actually following their own manifest and publicly stated goals, like, fore example, putting users first.

Moonchild, are you saying that the following sequence of events (or some sort of variant of them) won't happen at some point when it comes to Pale Moon?:

Bill Smith reads on his favourite tech news website the headline "Moonchild steps down, says that Pale Moon is 'in good hands'".

Five weeks later, Bill reads that Mr. Newt Headman, the new chief of the project (or however the chain of command is set up by that point), has declared that he has a vision that will make Pale Moon greater than it has ever been before. To accomplish this goal, he has teamed up with [INSERT UNSCRUPULOUS TECH COMPANY HERE].

Four months after that, Bill opens his browser (after an update), and spots a banner under the tab area saying "Pale Moon will be switching to the style of [INSERT SHODDY BROWSER MADE BY UNSCRUPULOUS TECH COMPANY HERE], and that users will have a limited time to adjust themselves to the decision. We know that change can be hard, but here (linked) is an FAQ that you may be able to use if you are having trouble adjusting".

Bill panics, and looks to contact Mr. Headman, only to find that he is "swamped with e-mails, and will not be looking at any new messages from users regarding Pale Moon for the time being", and that the boards are "currently down for maintenance". So Bill then looks to see what others are saying about the situation.

After a fair bit of time passes (a couple of weeks, a month or two, or what have you), Bill still cannot contact Mr. Headman, and when he opens his browser, is presented with some abomination that looks nothing like Pale Moon and far too much like the kind of browser that he initially adopted Pale Moon in order to avoid. He then remembers that he had read some time ago about "ChillyIcicle", a Pale Moon fork started by a clever user with good intentions.

Bill uninstalls the new version of "Pale Moon", and installs ChillyIcicle (which is not yet supported on all of the systems that Pale Moon was supported on). He likes it, and sticks with it.

Five months later, Bill finds out that ChillyIcicle has been abandoned due to lack of ability to support the project and lack of funds. He now is left in a terrible quagmire.

[New Tobin Paradigm]

Moonchild would obliterate the project wiping it off the face of the planet before he hands it over to someone who would create such an eventuality.

[Tharthan]

Moonchild would obliterate the project wiping it off the face of the planet before he hands it over to someone who would create such an eventuality.

I'm glad to hear that, because we all know situations where something becomes very popular and widely adopted (or something similar), and the people behind the scenes find it difficult to adjust to the new situation.

As such, they may step down from their position(s), and hand the project over to someone else (who far too often proves to have far different motives or desires for the project than the original head or original team did).

Alternatively, power corrupts (and if big money ever seriously gets involved, money can starkly corrupt as well), and the creator loses track of what the original point was. I doubt that this possibility would ever happen with Moonchild, though, as he seems very dedicated to the project and quite genuine.

[New Tobin Paradigm]

We are ALL very dedicated to this and the OTHER projects. Don't be elevating Moonchild and the Pale Moon Project above everything else to such a ridiculous degree.. Not that it wasn't first or isn't the defacto flagship as commonly known but all of us and all our projects are just as important. If you let yourself or us do that then it will just end up the same as Mozilla Firefox.

[Tharthan]

We are ALL very dedicated to this and the OTHER projects. Don't be elevating Moonchild [...] above everything else to such a ridiculous degree.

Oh no, I just meant that he is Pale Moon's "chief" so to speak. Perhaps I am perceiving this wrongly (or the way that developers and the like are thought of when it comes to the Pale Moon project), but I have always been under that impression. If I am being thickheaded, please do correct me.

I wasn't attempting to play down any other developer or team member's effort or their part. My bad if I worded that poorly.

Don't be elevating [...] the Pale Moon Project above everything else to such a ridiculous degree.

Not that it wasn't first or isn't the defacto flagship as commonly known but all of us and all our projects are just as important.

I guess that it's just because Pale Moon is the project that I personally follow that I am so focused on it. I didn't intend to imply that Moonchild ought to ignore his other projects and undertakings.

I actually would be interested in checking out the other projects, if only out of curiosity. I mean, if such a great browser can be made by the Pale Moon team, I wonder what other creations such developers have come up with?

If you let yourself or us do that then it will just end up the same as Mozilla Firefox.

Off-topic:
I didn't see exactly what went down near the end of my use of Mozilla Firefox to lead Mozilla to take the path that it took. I was essentially unsure of what to do when I saw that fateful thread, and that "sitemaster" (so to speak, because they weren't actually still a moderator on the forum in question, but still ran the general site itself) suggested Pale Moon to the original poster.

I didn't know that burnout was a factor in them taking the direction that they took (and are continuing to take). With that said, it stands to reason that being pressured and pressured to keep working on one project above others would drive a developer mad or at the very least make them utterly disinterested in the project in question (if not get tired of doing such work in general for a while as well).

[New Tobin Paradigm]

What I mean is that the Unified XUL Platform is distinctive from the Pale Moon project even though it is an outgrowth of it is because it isn't just for web browsers or ONE SPECIFIC web browser. The Mozilla codebase post-Mozilla Suite was made into a platform that can be used to make all sorts of different applications. That was the goal our Netscape forefathers set for us. After Firefox came on the scene focus of Mozilla turned from being a community application platform of technologies to being effectively Firefox Inc. in a short four years and it kept getting worse and worse. Indeed almost every endeavor Mozilla has created in the past 10 years has failed either completely or in part.

Along the way it sacrificed other applications and their very own technology to chase Google, as Moonchild stated. The path they have taken is not the only path and we are moving down what could be considered the path Mozilla should have traveled but never did. Except we are accomplishing great things with little funding, no support, and while being demonized at every turn. Yet we are still accomplishing more and more every day.

This is why with Pale Moon 28 and the Unified XUL Platform the codebase is NOT the Pale Moon codebase and the Pale Moon project isn't the only one involved. I have mentioned that we are the agents of our own salvation because we are sick and tired of relying on the big boys for everything that they ultimately refuse to give. They take and take more and more away from us.. WELL if they aren't going give us what we want or let us keep what we have then we will provide for ourselves.. We will build and continue what they won't. We no longer need them. All we need is each other.

Bottom line? They are done and we.. we are just getting started.

[Rickkins]

Well, I hope it will be here for some time to come.

This week, I decided to take a look at firefox, with the view of determining whether or not it was a viable alternative, for me personally. Damn thing pushed my frustration level up so high I damn near had a coronary event.(and I don't mean to slag off other people's work, but wtf...??)

So, this is it for me. Palemoon goes down, I'm screwed.(yea yea, sure, in theory any person can use any browser, but I think most will understand my meaning....)

Palemoon forever..!!

[Tharthan]

This week, I decided to take a look at firefox, with the view of determining whether or not it was a viable alternative, for me personally.

?

What browser did you use before Pale Moon?

Internet Explorer? Netscape Navigator? Nexus?

[Rickkins]

This week, I decided to take a look at firefox, with the view of determining whether or not it was a viable alternative, for me personally.

?

What browser did you use before Pale Moon?

Internet Explorer? Netscape Navigator? Nexus?

Started with Netscape 1.22, then went to SeaMonkey, Firefox, Cyberfox & Waterfox and Palemoon.

Seamonkey still exists, sort of, barely.
Cyberfox gone.
Firefox, yikes.
Waterfox largely just a clone of firefox.

And leaves me with Palemoon. So, I'll be staying, period. You'll have to pry it from my cold etc etc....